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  1. #2521
    Spectacular Member milton75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sword is Drawn View Post
    Still kinda hacked off the Bendis...
    The words that started a thousand sentences.

  2. #2522
    Poor Doomed Thing Panic's Avatar
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    Lol

    10chars

  3. #2523
    Extraordinary Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sword is Drawn View Post
    I think the greater source of confusion with Bendis' retelling is that it removes her growing up in Britain. Sure her parents remain British, but her early life is pretty much all Wundagore until she's out there working for HYDRA. He inadvertently removed that connection.

    I say 'inadvertently' because when he started his Spider-woman ongoing series the very starting point for that run was in London - which she still appeared to be familiar with even though her connection to Britain was now more down to parentage alone.

    I'm not 100% sure Bendis realised he'd kind of retconned that out in Spider-woman: Origin.
    Even if she wasn't born in the UK, she would still be British and likely to have a British accent. As a Daredevil fan, which has a lot of tension with various retellings of his origin (which seems like it would be consistent), I'm not too worried about inconsistent versions and which one is the "real" version unless it's plot relevant.
    Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

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  4. #2524
    File Clerk of MI13 The Sword is Drawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by milton75 View Post
    The words that started a thousand sentences.

    Don't get me wrong, by and large i genuinely like Bendis' work. He was part of what got me back into reading Marvel in the early 2000s, through Daredevil and New Avengers and Ultimate Spidey in particular. He gets a lot of stick, but I do think that the Avengers line - and a large part of Marvel in general, right now - badly misses the sense of direction he provided.

    I could do without the Captain Britain digs, though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    Even if she wasn't born in the UK, she would still be British and likely to have a British accent. As a Daredevil fan, which has a lot of tension with various retellings of his origin (which seems like it would be consistent), I'm not too worried about inconsistent versions and which one is the "real" version unless it's plot relevant.

    I do kind of disagree on that. Yes, she would have a claim to joint nationality from her parents/ Yes, if she wanted to represent England or Great Britain at Sport she would be eligible.

    But her first (and birth nationality) would now be Transia, having spent her life up to (as far as we know) entirely based around Wundagore. What SW:Origin effectively does is entirely remove growing up, living in and associating with a life in Britain from her origin.

    Even if she identifies as British, from a cultural standpoint she simply doesn't now have the life experiences, history and connection to the country which she did. The Wundagore story overwrites that.

    But then I am quite specifcally opposed to the concept of fluid continuity, which many writers have employed over the past decade. The belief that 'I'll write what i like if it makes a good story'. It's something which i mark out as the hallmark of bad writing.

    Once continuity is ignored, and not felt necessary, ongoing monthly comics basically just dies. It slowly kills the medium and the interest in it.
    It Came From Darkmoor...

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  5. #2525
    Extraordinary Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
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    I'll go back to Daredevil as an example. How old was he when he was blinded? How old was he when his father died? Was he in High School, College, Law School? There are depictions where he was clearly in Law School (the Battlin Jack miniseries and the Mark Waid run). There are versions where he's apparently in undergrad (the original Stan Lee version because I don't think Stan realized that College and Law School are separate things). There's The Man Without Fear where he appears to be 16 (this might have been more on John Romita Jr.'s art than a deliberate choice by Frank Miller). In Ed Brubaker's version, he appears to be about six years old. It makes a difference whether he was a child when his dad died or already an adult. It makes a difference whether he was friends with Foggy at the time or still growing up completely isolated and having to go to an orphanage (or raised by Stick, perhaps?). But, in the grand scheme of things, it only comes up if it's relevant to the plot.

    And, at no point can we call this a modern phenomenon unless the early 90s counts as modern.
    Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

    I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
    Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons

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  6. #2526
    Poor Doomed Thing Panic's Avatar
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    Not that I'm arguing with your general point, but Man Without Fear was always out of continuity. I love it, it's my favourite Daredevil story, but it was originally conceived as a film script iirc, and has always stood alone as far as I was concerned.

  7. #2527
    Extraordinary Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
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    Except it's not clearly out of continuity now. It's been referenced during the 90s in the Deadpool/Daredevil Annual (that dramatically retconned Typhoid Mary's backstory to make her the prostitute kicked out of the window) and it was a clear art reference for when Bendis covered Matt's origin (I left that out because it seemed duplicative of Man Without Fear). To me, it's in the same ambiguous continuity status as the debate we're having now with Spider-Woman.
    Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

    I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
    Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons

    Interested in reading Daredevil? Not sure what to read next? Why not check out the Daredevil Book Club for some ideas?

  8. #2528
    Poor Doomed Thing Panic's Avatar
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    At least now Jessica Drew can root for a team that has a chance at winning the World Cup: go Republic of Transia!

  9. #2529
    Spectacular Member milton75's Avatar
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    Does that make her a Transient? The Brexiteers won't have her in New Britain if so.



    *sorry. zzzzzzzzzz /politics

  10. #2530
    Fantastic Member OutlawGunStar's Avatar
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    Sorry if I repeat myself but here it goes... Ultimate Spiderman is a great comic,and one of the first I read actually.Bendis' run on Daredevil was good.On the other hand...he cant write teams to save his life.And avengers Disassembled still stands as some of the worst crap Marvel produces in the last 2 decades.And thats a pretty high bar.

  11. #2531
    File Clerk of MI13 The Sword is Drawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OutlawGunStar View Post
    Sorry if I repeat myself but here it goes... Ultimate Spiderman is a great comic,and one of the first I read actually.Bendis' run on Daredevil was good.On the other hand...he cant write teams to save his life.And avengers Disassembled still stands as some of the worst crap Marvel produces in the last 2 decades.And thats a pretty high bar.
    I think that Disassembled *was* necessary, though. While The Avengers certainly wasn't a sales failure in the late 90s and early 2000s it very much felt like it was a comic book from a different age. It was a cliche. Brightly coloured costumed heroes all living in a big mansion, with a butler, and everybody always going on how important it was to be an Avenger but the threats always seeming a little bit ridiculous in a turn of the millennium context. It was the part of the Marvel Universe which felt more at home at DC than in its own home. It was stale, it hadn't changed in any significant way in over 30 years. It was feeling tired.

    I now it seems kinda weird now fore people to think of a time where Marvel's flagship team wasn't the popular choice. Where the X-Men franchise was bigger and much more prominent. But that's where we were back then. And while we can certainly argue that Disassembled wasn't wonderfully handled it sometimes is necessary to ask 'What are the central most important parts of this property?' to tear things down and build it back up.

    New Avengers was a huge draw for me. It was bringing together characters I had wanted to see on a team together for years, and set things in motion for what I truly do believe was the most cohesive and well directed shared universe I have ever seen for Marvel in my lifetime. It was the perfect jumping on point for readers and produced some seriously good few years of stories. I'm happy that it happened.

    In comparison the current Marvel Universe feel very flat and convoluted to me.
    It Came From Darkmoor...

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  12. #2532

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    so has blade teamed up with Captain Britain, or Union Jack?

  13. #2533
    Poor Doomed Thing Panic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    so has blade teamed up with Captain Britain, or Union Jack?
    Do you mean since Captain Britain and MI:13?

    I don't think so. We've not really seen them together since fighting Dracula.

  14. #2534
    Spectacular Member milton75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sword is Drawn View Post
    Don't get me wrong, by and large i genuinely like Bendis' work. He was part of what got me back into reading Marvel in the early 2000s, through Daredevil and New Avengers and Ultimate Spidey in particular. He gets a lot of stick, but I do think that the Avengers line - and a large part of Marvel in general, right now - badly misses the sense of direction he provided.

    I could do without the Captain Britain digs, though.
    Yeah, that's fair enough, and I agree about the direction in the 2000s decade. I don't like other stuff he did though, e.g. I feel is GotG was a real indulgence, and Cosmic Marvel went backwards several steps when DnA stopped working on it.

    The Captain Britain stuff was just annoying. Iron man, wasn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sword is Drawn View Post

    But then I am quite specifcally opposed to the concept of fluid continuity, which many writers have employed over the past decade. The belief that 'I'll write what i like if it makes a good story'. It's something which i mark out as the hallmark of bad writing.

    Once continuity is ignored, and not felt necessary, ongoing monthly comics basically just dies. It slowly kills the medium and the interest in it.
    Agree again. It's not just lazy writing, it's also selfish and conceited. When writers can't be bothered respecting that which has gone before (and which many fans have spend many years and lots of money investing in) because they think they can do a better job (and frequently don't), they show themselves up as being kinds a**holes imo. If you want to write a different character, go self fund your own book and if you're as good as you mistakenly think you are people will buy it regardless. Don't screw something up that was doing just fine for 40 years before you came along.

  15. #2535
    Spectacular Member milton75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sword is Drawn View Post
    I think that Disassembled *was* necessary, though. While The Avengers certainly wasn't a sales failure in the late 90s and early 2000s it very much felt like it was a comic book from a different age. It was a cliche. Brightly coloured costumed heroes all living in a big mansion, with a butler, and everybody always going on how important it was to be an Avenger but the threats always seeming a little bit ridiculous in a turn of the millennium context. It was the part of the Marvel Universe which felt more at home at DC than in its own home. It was stale, it hadn't changed in any significant way in over 30 years. It was feeling tired.

    I now it seems kinda weird now fore people to think of a time where Marvel's flagship team wasn't the popular choice. Where the X-Men franchise was bigger and much more prominent. But that's where we were back then. And while we can certainly argue that Disassembled wasn't wonderfully handled it sometimes is necessary to ask 'What are the central most important parts of this property?' to tear things down and build it back up.

    New Avengers was a huge draw for me. It was bringing together characters I had wanted to see on a team together for years, and set things in motion for what I truly do believe was the most cohesive and well directed shared universe I have ever seen for Marvel in my lifetime. It was the perfect jumping on point for readers and produced some seriously good few years of stories. I'm happy that it happened.

    In comparison the current Marvel Universe feel very flat and convoluted to me.
    I find myself agreeing again - especially with the bit in bold. Characters have always wandered in and out of each other's books in Marvel; it's what makes a shared universe fun. But if you look at the period roughly from 2001 - 2012 this was really carried off with some panache and to a surprising degree. For all that some people were annoyed by the scale and number of big events like Civil War, Secret Invasion, Dark Reign and Siege, they were used to integrate disparate characters in away that I personally hadn't seen achieved before. It helped that there were books like The Initiative that seemed to exist specifically to give lesser-used characters more page-time, but the main titles had more supporting characters being used too. Many "lesser" characters and minor villains had their personalities fleshed out too, and speaking as someone who often likes the minor characters at least as much as the main stars, this was something I appreciated (I'm still sad that Constrictor's path to slight redemption was ruined by a misunderstanding!).
    I really do feel that around 2012 things took a downward turn. Fear Itself was mainly appalling, and there has been less coherence over the past 6 years. They might be heading back to a more shared vision though. Fingers crossed.

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