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  1. #3916
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    One thing that is confusing me about Infamous Iron Man is exactly what are SHIELD after Doom for, and what is he supposed to be charged with in the latest issue?

    Back in the Mark Miller / Bryan Hitch run of the FF, in issue 566, the start of The Master of Doom, Doom has been released by the US Government with a full apology! This is all courtesy of Norman Osborn as part of the Cabal storyline.

    So given that he'd been arrested the released, with a public apology, it's going to be near impossible to charge him for anything before that.

    After this storyline, he became part of Reed Richards Future Foundation, helped stopped the Mad Celestials, and also teamed up with SHIELD, along with the Winter Soldier and Black Widow, to help stop Lucia von Bardas.

    After that he kept pretty much a low profile, studying the Incursions and getting ready to fight the Beyonders. During this period the likes of the Fantastic Four and Dr Strange felt at easy to stop around at Castle Doom on a regular basis for tea, treated as honoured guests, and Doom also acted as a temporary guardian for Reeds daughter, Valeria.

    So pretty much since issue 566 of the FF, Doom hasn't done anything that I can see that he could be charged with.

    Given the number of ex-Super Villains that are in SHIELDS employ, such as Black Widow and Hawkeye, a more logical approach by SHIELD would surely be to try to use Doom as an asset?

    As much as I have been enjoying Infamous Iron Man, Doom's run in with SHIELD seem to be a plot contrivance that doesn't fit into Marvel continuity.

    Wouldn't it just take him a phone call or an e-mail to sort out diplomatic immunity again?

    And Latveria is a real plot problem for me. If Doom wants to be a hero, I'd have thought he'd start in his own back yard. Instead of leaving Latveria, set up a UN sanctioned election, leave Kristof and Boris in charge until those elections take place, encourage a variety of political parties within the country, secure his own technology and mystic artefacts, and as I said ensure he maintains his diplomatic immunity.

    I also don't get the whole issue over him calling himself Iron Man. Everybody knows that it's Doom, he doesn't look one bit like the Tony Stark Iron Man, he's been working pretty much off of the radar, and I can't believe for a second anybody would mistake him for Tony Stark. Again, it seems a contrivance to me just to call the comic Iron Man.

    The warning he received from a future Tony Stark has me scratching my head; how would whether he's calling himself Iron Man (and nobody else seems to be) or Doom effect him in a future encounter? I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

    And given Starks own shady past as an arms dealer, surely Iron Man is a good title for one seeking redemption?

  2. #3917
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    Now, as to the rumour that Doom will return to villain status when Mark Waid takes over the book with issue 601 of Iron Man, I have some problems with this.

    I don't have a problem with Doom as the villain. He is the best villain that the Marvel universe had had. But I have serious problems with it in terms of the current continuity, and think it shows a complete mis-understanding of Jonathan Hickman's Secret Wars.

    Maybe I'm wrong, but I found Secret Wars to be a meta-view on the superhero comic genre as a whole, on stagnant timelines and revamps and retcons.

    I saw the Beyonds, the creators of the Marvel Universe, as setting out to effectively retcon and relaunch it, rather like the writers, artists and editors of comics about the retcon an entire comics line.

    Doom, as the most intelligent, arrogant and egotistical character in the Marvel Universe, has gone beyond just being a character in a comic (a bit like Prospero in The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen), and it aware that this revamp is happening. So he takes a stand against it.

    He creates the "Library", collecting the best of each universe (effectively a graphic novel collection), and after defeating the Beyonders forms Battleword.

    The problem is that Battleworld is stagnant, as Reed Richards points out, it can't grow, as Doom is protecting everything he loved about that universe and not allowing it to evolve (rather like a comic book fan who is against change).

    As Reed puts it, "Your afraid of losing the things you've saved that you hold them too tight. Don't you see Victor? A Tree is just a seed in its realized state."

    For me, the whole moral of Secret Wars is that fans need to allow the stories and characters to grow and evolve, not stay stagnant. Valeria and Franklin should grow up, not stay as kids; Aunt May should die; Peter Parker should get married and have kids etc.

    And Victor Von Doom would learn from his experiences, his triumphs and failures. Like Magneto, his ultimate goal is a better world. He sees chaos and pain around him, and wants order. It's not his goals, but the way he goes about them that makes him a villain.

    And like Magneto, he should be a hero, but life experiences turned him into a villain. The violent death of his parents, the dictatorship his grew up under in Latveria, the persecution of his Romanov Gypsy people, and the scarring of his face.

    I believe that was why Reed restored his face, to take away one of the biggest things to make him a villain.

    Returning Doom to being the bad guy just resets things back to the old status quo. No evolution of charge. We have seen it done before, done so well, that keeping him on the road to redemption is a far more compelling tale.

    I knew that Infamous Iron Man was on borrowed time. No matter how popular or unpopular the book may be (and sales figures seem to indicate it is one of Marvels most popular books), we all knew that as soon as Marvel wanted Tony Stark back, this series was going to have to end.

    But returning Doom to Bad Guy status is a complete waste of not only this series, but all of Secret Wars, Time Runs out, and the Future Foundation.

    I had hoped that once Infamous Iron Man came to an end, we'd see Doom teaming up with Ben Grimm to launch a brand new Fantastic Four. It's criminal that Marvel no longer publishes that comic, and having Doom as the new leader would be an exciting twist that would bring in readers.

    That's my own thoughts for what it's worth. Hopefully it's just a rumour that doesn't pan out.

  3. #3918

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    Regardless, the existence of Doom in the Marvel Universe does raise an important point, that few Marvel stories actually deal with ruling. It's been said that 'with great power comes great responsibility' but in many ways Marvel's superheros are dangerously irresponsible. They fight to save the day and defeat evil but they draw the line at actually trying to change society or assume any real positions of authority. Instead, they hand power back to the same short-sighted and corrupt officials, allowing the whole cycle of violence to perpetuate itself. That ultimatly, Marvel's superheros can't truly save the world, it all ends in ruin eventually as Marvel's endless crisis and civil wars attest. Only Doom's leadership has ever been able to bring a measure of stability to the Marvel universe.
    Thanks for your kind words. And I agree completely. That's kind of an unspoken flaw in the system. Saving the world is innately good. Stopping criminals is good. But to not try to change the factors in the world that creates so many ills is pretty irresponsible. It's like treating the symptoms rather than the disease. It's dooming them, the world around them, and everyone living in it to a cycle of sorts. Sure, they'll throw villains in jail. They may even kill them. But they will never take it a step further and actually dare to change the world in a meaningful way. They let the same flawed systems remain in place. They could so easily change that, but they don't. That's not just unheroic. It's counterproductive.

    It's another topic I wrote about on my blog several months ago. I think I even referenced it in the Spider-Man thread. I called it "Why Most Superheroes Are Woefully Incompetent (By Design)." In some respects, the merchandising and branding efforts of companies like Marvel and DC are what undermines their ability to actually be heroes. They can't kill their villains. They can't change the world for the better, otherwise there would be no stories to tell. That's why I think Dr. Doom's character and motivations are so compelling. You can call him a villain and he most certainly fits the criteria. However, you can't say he's content with the status quo. He truly believes that he can make the world better under his rule. Even Stan Lee concurred with this. In that respects, his motivations are more heroic than that of any hero.
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  4. #3919
    Spectacular Member Kintor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarvelMaster616 View Post
    Thanks for your kind words. And I agree completely. That's kind of an unspoken flaw in the system. Saving the world is innately good. Stopping criminals is good. But to not try to change the factors in the world that creates so many ills is pretty irresponsible. It's like treating the symptoms rather than the disease. It's dooming them, the world around them, and everyone living in it to a cycle of sorts. Sure, they'll throw villains in jail. They may even kill them. But they will never take it a step further and actually dare to change the world in a meaningful way. They let the same flawed systems remain in place. They could so easily change that, but they don't. That's not just unheroic. It's counterproductive.

    It's another topic I wrote about on my blog several months ago. I think I even referenced it in the Spider-Man thread. I called it "Why Most Superheroes Are Woefully Incompetent (By Design)." In some respects, the merchandising and branding efforts of companies like Marvel and DC are what undermines their ability to actually be heroes. They can't kill their villains. They can't change the world for the better, otherwise there would be no stories to tell. That's why I think Dr. Doom's character and motivations are so compelling. You can call him a villain and he most certainly fits the criteria. However, you can't say he's content with the status quo. He truly believes that he can make the world better under his rule. Even Stan Lee concurred with this. In that respects, his motivations are more heroic than that of any hero.
    I think that the problem is deeper than simply the business model of the comic book industry. It's true that the story can't properly end; otherwise Marvel and DC wouldn't be able to sell comics. A bigger issue though might be the problems associated with having a shared comic book universe in the first place. Not only can't Marvel's heroes change the status quo, they are also prevented from enacting even minor changes to the world because they might intrude on the adventures of other comic book lines being published at the same time.

    That ironically, having so many superheros in the one universe actually makes it harder to save the world. There is a certain appeal to having all of Marvel's heroes being able to interact with one another, if only as a cynical exercise in brand synergy. However, this same accessibility really does limit the kinds of stories Marvel is able to tell in any given comic book. Even world shattering events like Civil War and Secret War usually just snap back to the usual status quo like nothing ever happened.

    That's why to this day I give so much praise to the original Marvel 2099 universe. Doom's line-wide takeover of the US in 2099 is one of the only times the implications of a comic book event where made to stick, to show a shared comic book universe with genuine cause and effect. Not to mention that 'President Doom' again revealed himself to be a ruthless but fair leader, taking great strides to improve the lives of all in the 2099 universe before he was overthrown by a worse regime then the one he replaced.
    Last edited by Kintor; 07-15-2017 at 11:19 PM.

  5. #3920
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanHarry View Post
    Now, as to the rumour that Doom will return to villain status when Mark Waid takes over the book with issue 601 of Iron Man, I have some problems with this.

    I don't have a problem with Doom as the villain. He is the best villain that the Marvel universe had had. But I have serious problems with it in terms of the current continuity, and think it shows a complete mis-understanding of Jonathan Hickman's Secret Wars.

    Maybe I'm wrong, but I found Secret Wars to be a meta-view on the superhero comic genre as a whole, on stagnant timelines and revamps and retcons.

    I saw the Beyonds, the creators of the Marvel Universe, as setting out to effectively retcon and relaunch it, rather like the writers, artists and editors of comics about the retcon an entire comics line.

    Doom, as the most intelligent, arrogant and egotistical character in the Marvel Universe, has gone beyond just being a character in a comic (a bit like Prospero in The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen), and it aware that this revamp is happening. So he takes a stand against it.

    He creates the "Library", collecting the best of each universe (effectively a graphic novel collection), and after defeating the Beyonders forms Battleword.

    The problem is that Battleworld is stagnant, as Reed Richards points out, it can't grow, as Doom is protecting everything he loved about that universe and not allowing it to evolve (rather like a comic book fan who is against change).

    As Reed puts it, "Your afraid of losing the things you've saved that you hold them too tight. Don't you see Victor? A Tree is just a seed in its realized state."

    For me, the whole moral of Secret Wars is that fans need to allow the stories and characters to grow and evolve, not stay stagnant. Valeria and Franklin should grow up, not stay as kids; Aunt May should die; Peter Parker should get married and have kids etc.

    And Victor Von Doom would learn from his experiences, his triumphs and failures. Like Magneto, his ultimate goal is a better world. He sees chaos and pain around him, and wants order. It's not his goals, but the way he goes about them that makes him a villain.

    And like Magneto, he should be a hero, but life experiences turned him into a villain. The violent death of his parents, the dictatorship his grew up under in Latveria, the persecution of his Romanov Gypsy people, and the scarring of his face.

    I believe that was why Reed restored his face, to take away one of the biggest things to make him a villain.

    Returning Doom to being the bad guy just resets things back to the old status quo. No evolution of charge. We have seen it done before, done so well, that keeping him on the road to redemption is a far more compelling tale.

    I knew that Infamous Iron Man was on borrowed time. No matter how popular or unpopular the book may be (and sales figures seem to indicate it is one of Marvels most popular books), we all knew that as soon as Marvel wanted Tony Stark back, this series was going to have to end.

    But returning Doom to Bad Guy status is a complete waste of not only this series, but all of Secret Wars, Time Runs out, and the Future Foundation.

    I had hoped that once Infamous Iron Man came to an end, we'd see Doom teaming up with Ben Grimm to launch a brand new Fantastic Four. It's criminal that Marvel no longer publishes that comic, and having Doom as the new leader would be an exciting twist that would bring in readers.

    That's my own thoughts for what it's worth. Hopefully it's just a rumour that doesn't pan out.
    My thinking on this pretty much aligns with yours. I really want to see Doom moving forward as a character. Why would he scheme to rule the planet anymore....been there, done that and then some. He was God Emperor for a number of years and even then he started to get disenchanted with it all as indicated in his talk with his consort Susan.

    I also think you're correct about why exactly SHIELD is prepared to haul Victor away and lock him up again. It's a bit vague on what exactly the charge would be. As Stan always says, trying to rule the world isn't exactly a crime unless you've violated some kind of international law. Doom has always been the final word in Latveria and took a personal interest in passing various judgments that were presented to him by the citizens. At least that's what we glimpsed back in Byrne's FF.

    I've scratched my head about the destruction of Doom's lab that we saw way back in Invincible Iron Man. What exactly happened? When Doom left with the Molecule Man to confront the Beyonders, did the people rebel? What happened to Kristoff?

    Here's some non-spoilery preview panels that Matt Hollingsworth tweeted out the other day

    A young boy accepts a dagger from an unrevealed character (Young Victor and his mother?)




    Ben encounters a young girl...I doubt it's Valeria. Maybe a young Latverian? Did the Helicarrier crash in Latveria?



    Last edited by Iron Maiden; 07-18-2017 at 01:04 AM.
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  6. #3921
    Incredible Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Oh, I see you're not real thrilled about that. I liked her better when Hickman was on the FF. I didn't really like her sudden genius that happened in Mark Millar's run but Hickman did make lemonade out of a lemon IMO.

    I even like Claremont's time dancing Valeria that was the big sister to Franklin from an alternate timeline. Her origin and the younger Valeria's are pretty entangled though. still feel that Valeria von Doom was reincarnated as Valeria Richards. It does sort of explain her accelerated IQ development
    You say "sudden" I say, "what took so long?" Valeria von Doom was a genius. I just wish Valeria Richards was a bit more like Valeria von Doom. Being super-smart is fine, but when it's your only power... Well, also, Valeria von Doom used several gadgets to boost her powers. Her invisibility was due to a gadget she'd built.

  7. #3922
    Incredible Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Ben encounters a young girl...I doubt it's Valeria. Maybe a young Latverian? Did the Helicarrier crash in Latveria?
    Are we sure it's not Doom's acolyte Layla Miller?

  8. #3923
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    You say "sudden" I say, "what took so long?" Valeria von Doom was a genius. I just wish Valeria Richards was a bit more like Valeria von Doom. Being super-smart is fine, but when it's your only power... Well, also, Valeria von Doom used several gadgets to boost her powers. Her invisibility was due to a gadget she'd built.
    The connection between the two characters has always been very loosely handled by writers. I feel that even if Valeria Richards is not a kind of reincarnation of Valeria von Doom then maybe we should consider her advanced intellectual capacity something get gets from her parents DNA being altered by the cosmic rays. She could have other powers as she grows older

    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Are we sure it's not Doom's acolyte Layla Miller?
    She looks too young for Layla Miller I think. She got aged up so that she could be romantically linked to Jamie right? Or he'd be in serious trouble! I have to admit to being confused about her status.
    Last edited by Iron Maiden; 07-17-2017 at 07:01 AM.
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  9. #3924
    Incredible Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Well, Layla wasn't "magically" aged. She aged by living in Doomstadt for several years. maybe this is her from one of the early ones?

  10. #3925
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    She looks too young for Layla Miller I think. She got aged up so that she could be romantically linked to Jamie right? Or he'd be in serious trouble! I have to admit to being confused about her status.
    It's true that Layla Miller did grew up; but only because she grew up within the future that {the X-Men's} Bishop came from and yes, she did get married to Jamie.

  11. #3926
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaxHouse View Post
    It's true that Layla Miller did grew up; but only because she grew up within the future that {the X-Men's} Bishop came from and yes, she did get married to Jamie.
    Thanks! That I do remember. There was some time travel involved and they did meet Old Man Doom who then told her about the Doomlocks on his Time Travel tech.

    Now on to Legacy and how it will affect, RiRi, Tony and Victor. Interesting interview with Bendis on the Marvel Site so I will quote some sections. Boy it does seem like Doom has been hijacked to the Iron Man world in the absence of the Fantastic Four (or half of them anyway)

    On Iron Man's Legacy:

    Now for Iron Man, it’s not just Tony Stark’s legacy. It’s Riri Williams’ legacy, Victor Von Doom’s legacy, and Tony Stark’s legacy. It’s not just a normal person’s legacy; it’s wide, and it’s got a lot of tentacles…not to be too Hydra with the tentacles. But his reach, and the reach of his legacy, from the Avengers to the Stark Foundation, is enormous. So we’re going to get to explore some things about Tony, and about the Iron Man Universe that we haven’t seen before, and it just so happens that we’ve spent the last year and a half building up to this, like this is where I was headed.
    Not sure I like that Victor's enmeshed with Tony's legacy. IMO even with all his villainous history, I like Victor's legacy just fine. He can't change it and he knows that.

    Marvel.com: Of the big Iron Man characters that you’ve mentioned, who would you say will be most moved by Tony’s disappearance?

    Brian Michael Bendis: All of them for different reasons, but I have to say, Victor is in the most unusual situation. What Riri is going through, people will identify as “Oh, I’ve looked up to someone.” This relationship is very relatable, in a way. Like, I’ve had mentors in my life, people who I was trying to figure out without directly talking to them, you know what I mean? Trying to figure out stuff about myself through their humanity. Whereas Victor is on just about the biggest, most complicated redemption story…one of the biggest villains in the history of all fiction is trying to claw himself out of the hole. How much he’s been able to do is amazing. But, the enemy list he has created in doing so is enormous, and it’s not just from this dimension. So, his involvement in Tony Stark’s legacy may become, at one point, such a struggle, that he may destroy it. And something new has to be created, or he makes a sacrifice that brings up something new as well. What’s going on with Victor is probably the most unique thing going on story-wise at Marvel.


    I definitely agree with Bendis this time and he's not just doing PR. I think it is the most interesting thing going on in the post SW and pre Legacy Marvel. I've not really been all that taken by Secret Empire. But I'm undoubtedly biased I'm really glad that TPTB at Marvel didn't just put Doom away in a box for a while after SW and as part of the strange exile of Fantastic Four characters.

    More on Victor's possibly mentoring RiRi along with Tony's AI (or whatever form he's going to take)

    Marvel.com: You’ve got her, you have Victor, you have some other strong personalities in there. Would you characterize what’s going to happen as a violent clash?
    Brian Michael Bendis: No. It’s a philosophical [clash], and I’ve already got Riri and Victor’s first meeting out of the way in INFAMOUS IRON MAN, because everybody assumes they were gonna beat each other up. And when you get there, and Victor doesn’t want to fight, there’s no fight. You can hit him all you want, he’s not gonna fight back, and Victor’s not mad at her, and Victor’s not in a crazy, manic state that he usually, or sometimes, is in. He’s calmed down. So, when she shows up in his life, this is a brilliant young woman that he can relate to, and this isn’t someone that he’d wanna fight.
    Also, he’s very aware of what it feels like to be in her position, at the beginning of your studies, not even knowing what you don’t know. That’s one of my favorite things, finding something out. Oh, I didn’t even know I didn’t know that, you know? And I know, he’ll get really excited for other people discovering things. So this is the Victor we’re dealing with right now. Not the whole mad genius. Now, does he want to turn her into the whole mad genius? Who knows? And also, may I say, Riri is at a very precarious stage. She’s had a world with nothing but loss and confusion in it. Intelligent characters- intelligent people- in this world we live in right now, find themselves very frustrated. Unintelligent leadership, and science not being the forefront of the society; you can read about it all the time, this is not something that I’m making up. Intelligent children sometimes shut down because they’re like “Whoa boy, this… everything’s weird.” So that’s part of Riri’s development.


    At one point, Bendis is asked if she is easily influenced....

    Brian Michael Bendis: No, not easily influenced. [And] it’s not stubbornness; I don’t see it that way, but I have a person in my life who decides things before they absolutely know them. And sometimes they’re right, because their confidence and intelligence is very strong, and sometimes it’s “Oh no, I was wrong.” But their guess, their instinct is very good, right? So that’s part of where she is. So her instincts [leads to her] calling it like she sees it. Like she sees bull and calls it, and then finds herself in the middle of it.
    I have a storyline going right now where she’s right in the middle of terrorist actions in Liberia (**) and S.H.I.E.L.D being S.H.I.E.L.D, she doesn’t buy into any of it. So she’s kind of just making up her own place in it, and it’s throwing off all of the ways that people do things. Maybe in a good way, maybe in a bad way, but she’s gonna have some mistakes she makes, big, big mistakes. But there’s something really brassy and confident about the way she handles things, and that is something Victor is going to be able to talk to her on. He will be able to communicate his philosophies through that idea.


    ** Surely he must mean Latveria here. So looks to me like Victor will have a sort of continuing role in Invincible Iron after Infamous Iron Man ends.
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  12. #3927
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    Oh, he does mean Latveria. Major spoilers:
    spoilers:
    Riri just became the QUEEN!
    end of spoilers

  13. #3928
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Oh, he does mean Latveria. Major spoilers:
    spoilers:
    Riri just became the QUEEN!
    end of spoilers
    Last edited by Iron Maiden; 07-19-2017 at 02:44 PM.
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  14. #3929
    A man denied his comics Victor_Von_Doom's Avatar
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    Yay, more shilling of his OC. Wee... Can't he just bugger off and take that crappy character and his plots with him? Iron Man needs a forward thinking writer, and Victor's story needs to be handled by someone who actually knows how to write different stories. I hope he does indeed leave the title after 600. That rumor about Waid turned out to be fake, for what it's worth.

  15. #3930
    Spectacular Member Kintor's Avatar
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    I don't want to hear how Doom will be wasting his time mentoring Riri, or any of Marvel's unpopular recent creations. That can only diminish to reputation of Doom in the end, sacrificing Marvelís heritage in the pursuit of illusionary gains. What I want is a new Doom book when Infamous Iron Man ends, anything less will be a step-down from what we already have as readers.

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