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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by !Pharozonk! View Post
    Meh, that still couldn't redeem that story for me. For me, Austen baited Havok and Polaris fans into thinking that the characters could finally grow a little and stop breaking up constantly. Instead, he just throws it on our face and says "screw you".
    His original plan was actually to marry them off Scott and Jean style and then dump them into limbo. It was New X-Men 132 and Lorna insane in the toxic ruins of Genosha that convinced him to change his plans for the wedding along with her depiction.

    To be blunt I see it as a positive thing. Lorna and Alex headed down that road would have just totally solidified the as the B list Scott and Jean.

  2. #62
    Nostalgia Fanwanker Pharozonk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    His original plan was actually to marry them off Scott and Jean style and then dump them into limbo. It was New X-Men 132 and Lorna insane in the toxic ruins of Genosha that convinced him to change his plans for the wedding along with her depiction.

    To be blunt I see it as a positive thing. Lorna and Alex headed down that road would have just totally solidified the as the B list Scott and Jean.
    I'm not saying that his original plan would be better. I think both were pretty terrible. My opinion is that if you are going to pull the trigger and marry them off, don't just throw them off into limbo afterwards. Make more compelling stories with that new status quo and explore that dynamic. There are so many story potentials from the wedding alone.
    "In any time, there will always be a need for heroes." - the Time Trapper, Legion of Superheroes #61(1994)

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  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by !Pharozonk! View Post
    Meh, that still couldn't redeem that story for me. For me, Austen baited Havok and Polaris fans into thinking that the characters could finally grow a little and stop breaking up constantly. Instead, he just throws it on our face and says "screw you".
    The characters have spent way more time as a couple, with Lorna treated as his pet girlfriend, than apart. It's why I'm glad they're separate at the moment. It provides an opportunity to establish who these characters are more strongly before bringing them back together as equals in the relationship.
    My real thoughts on ongoing Marvel activity and comics can be found at my Tumblr. I can also be reached on Twitter.

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by !Pharozonk! View Post
    I'm not saying that his original plan would be better. I think both were pretty terrible. My opinion is that if you are going to pull the trigger and marry them off, don't just throw them off into limbo afterwards. Make more compelling stories with that new status quo and explore that dynamic. There are so many story potentials from the wedding alone.
    As of the time the wedding occurred the closest thing Lorna had to a best friend was Jean (not considering Bobby in this) and Jean not only didn't have her be the maid of honor at her wedding she wasn't even a bridesmaid... hell they didn't even talk at her wedding.

    At the time Austen was planning the wedding Lorna had no family to speak of after the whole robo-Magneto retcon crap. She had no backstory or parents to her name. The one half hearted attempt in the 80s to give her a evil sister never went anywhere and the next set of writers decided it was false a decision I have no problem with. In terms of philosophy on mutant issues Lorna was just starting as of 2000 to individuate from Alex.

    To put it bluntly in late 2002 when Austen was planning the wedding their relationship was not one of equals. Lorna was less a character in her own right with her own backstory, family, friends and views and more Havok's green haired girlfriend. She was just starting to individuate from him when he was off doing his own series in the Mutant X universe.

    If Lorna and Havok had a wedding in mid 2003 it wouldn't have been one of equals marrying as Lorna at least until that point had none of the core things you would expect a nearly 4 decade old character to have at the time. All of those things Havok already possessed.

    A marriage in say 2013 would have been a very different beast as Lorna at least by that point in time had a full backstory and a family and has individuated from him as a character. Had such a marriage occurred in 2013 it could by that point have provided lots of story potential at her wedding alone between the two families. In 2003 that story potential was much more one sided in my view as Lorna's family, backstory developments and development of her own worldview was just being built at that point in time.
    Last edited by jmc247; 05-05-2014 at 07:43 PM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    The characters have spent way more time as a couple, with Lorna treated as his pet girlfriend, than apart. It's why I'm glad they're separate at the moment. It provides an opportunity to establish who these characters are more strongly before bringing them back together as equals in the relationship.
    I never viewed Lorna as his pet girlfriend or anything of the sort, and now Lorna is left to either be crazy or just Magneto's daughter sadly...

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganAlpha30X33 View Post
    I never viewed Lorna as his pet girlfriend or anything of the sort, and now Lorna is left to either be crazy or just Magneto's daughter sadly...
    Pet is the wrong word. But, Lorna didn't have anything in her life other then Havok, no long term best friends other then Jean (who was a weak best friend given Jean's own behavior toward Lorna at Jean's wedding), no backstory, no family and she was just separating her worldview from Havok... so it couldn't in the start of 2003 have been a marriage of equals (assuming they had gotten married) at the time.

    As for her being 'crazy' of late... that is overstated, the only issue she was even to my mind unstable this year was ANXF #3. Issues #2, 4, and 6 she was angry and a blockhead not 'crazy'.
    Last edited by jmc247; 05-05-2014 at 08:04 PM.

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    Pet is the wrong word. But, Lorna didn't have anything in her life other then Havok, no long term best friends other then Jean (who was a weak best friend given Jean's own behavior toward Lorna at Jean's wedding), no backstory, no family and she was just separating her worldview from Havok... so it couldn't in the start of 2003 have been a marriage of equals (assuming they had gotten married) at the time.

    As for her being 'crazy' of late... that is overstated, the only issue she was even to my mind unstable this year was ANXF #3. Issues #2, 4, and 6 she was angry and a blockhead not 'crazy'.
    I believe pet is the right word, at least in the way I meant it. Most of the time, Lorna has been present purely as an addition to Alex, someone whose entire purpose and relationship is in loving him. When they left the X-Men to live a civilian life, it was because Alex wanted a normal life. When they went to Australia, Lorna was there mainly to support him. On 90s X-Factor, she was mainly Jean Grey lite to support him as Cyclops lite. When they went into space, Lorna only got pulled in to boost Alex. And in many cases when she's been without him, such as on Genosha or before she went to Genosha, she was depicted as thinking solely in terms of Alex, not being with him, or what he would do, in the same way a pet is primarily concerned with their owner. It's fair to have a character feel and act very torn up by losing the person they love, or to be very strongly concerned about what the person they loved would do in a situation, but not when that's all there is to the character.

    The situation has improved in the past ten years. Aside from their dynamic while in space, Lorna's been able to think for herself separately from Alex's thoughts and interests. When Alex left the X-Men to support Lorna for a change, it was among the positive points where things turned around for their dynamic to be more like equals.
    My real thoughts on ongoing Marvel activity and comics can be found at my Tumblr. I can also be reached on Twitter.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    I believe pet is the right word, at least in the way I meant it. Most of the time, Lorna has been present purely as an addition to Alex, someone whose entire purpose and relationship is in loving him. When they left the X-Men to live a civilian life, it was because Alex wanted a normal life. When they went to Australia, Lorna was there mainly to support him. On 90s X-Factor, she was mainly Jean Grey lite to support him as Cyclops lite. When they went into space, Lorna only got pulled in to boost Alex. And in many cases when she's been without him, such as on Genosha or before she went to Genosha, she was depicted as thinking solely in terms of Alex, not being with him, or what he would do, in the same way a pet is primarily concerned with their owner. It's fair to have a character feel and act very torn up by losing the person they love, or to be very strongly concerned about what the person they loved would do in a situation, but not when that's all there is to the character.

    The situation has improved in the past ten years. Aside from their dynamic while in space, Lorna's been able to think for herself separately from Alex's thoughts and interests. When Alex left the X-Men to support Lorna for a change, it was among the positive points where things turned around for their dynamic to be more like equals.
    Well, yes it depends on how you define pet, but Lorna was from the Claremont era to the end of the first iteration of X-Factor pretty much Havok's green haired on and off girlfriend who had the view even when Alex broke up with her that in order to make decisions she had to think what would Alex do so not much independent thought there and no family or backstory and almost no close friends either.

    Anyway tons of Polaris micro heroes below, I notice only a very few missing costumes she has worn over the years.. the vast majority are there including the majority of AU costumes.

    http://marvel-microheroes.wikia.com/...s_(Lorna_Dane)

  9. #69
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    You're overstating Alex's place though, aside from Lorna he pretty much has no friends either...and yet when he tries to branch out he's attacked strongly for it, he was villainized for smiling at Wanda, with people jumping the gun and saying that he and Wanda were dating. Lorna may have agreed with Alex on some things but when she disagreed with him she wasn't automatically shouted down either imho.

  10. #70
    Ultimate Member juan678's Avatar
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    peter v nguyen

  11. #71

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    You're overstating Alex's place though, aside from Lorna he pretty much has no friends either...and yet when he tries to branch out he's attacked strongly for it, he was villainized for smiling at Wanda, with people jumping the gun and saying that he and Wanda were dating. Lorna may have agreed with Alex on some things but when she disagreed with him she wasn't automatically shouted down either imho.
    Villainized? No way. Just the oppose, we were quite happy about the incredible dramatic potential of Wanda and Havok dating.

    Hell, there would be enough fan interest it might even have pushed the Heroes part of the franchise to have Lorna over to the Avengers for the first time in the 45 year history of the character.



    Quote Originally Posted by juan678 View Post

    peter v nguyen
    That is a really great picture of Wanda and Lorna.

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by juan678 View Post

    peter v nguyen
    Excellent work, I'm glad to see more of Lorna and Wanda drawn side by side. Hopefully we see Wanda colored too.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    Villainized? No way. Just the oppose, we were quite happy about the incredible dramatic potential of Wanda and Havok dating.

    Hell, there would be enough fan interest it might even have pushed the Heroes part of the franchise to have Lorna over to the Avengers for the first time in the 45 year history of the character.

    I remember complaints, but those complaints weren't about Alex dating Wanda. The problem was the repeated situations where Lorna's potential has been robbed from her whenever Alex needs a boost, only to never get residual perks any time Alex is getting lots of attention. As long as Lorna's treated well and has her potential put to good use, the great majority of Lorna fans aren't that tied up about shipping wars.
    Last edited by salarta; 05-07-2014 at 12:41 PM.
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  13. #73
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    The complaints were that partially if Alex had moved on then so should Lorna and then rub Alex's face in it...and blaming Alex for anything bad about Lorna right now is like blaming a guy that was traded to another team for what happens this year...he's an easy out for some Lorna fans. And they could have just kept Alex and Lorna together as a couple, both would be far enough away to get their own separate characterization and allowing both to travel to show up in both books.

  14. #74
    Astonishing Member spyderbytes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan678 View Post

    peter v nguyen
    This is amazing!

  15. #75
    Nostalgia Fanwanker Pharozonk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Mermaid View Post
    This is amazing!
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    "In any time, there will always be a need for heroes." - the Time Trapper, Legion of Superheroes #61(1994)

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