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  1. #1651
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    The last 2 pages contain some of the moral arguments defending racism I've ever heard. Congratulations I guess..?

    The ideas that start "the system historically" and "fairness vs equality" and "representation matters" seem to be wrought in the unspoken "We want to set the bar against hetero-white-males... cause revenge". Revenge for all the years of their assumed privilege i'm guessing". Sounds pretty evil. Even when you defend it by saying false equivalence it still sounds questionable and you know who things like that are hardest on? Someone who grew up poor. Someone who grew up poor and determined and gave their all to get one shot. So they get to the cusp of success only to be told "You're the wrong race...gender... religion..." we need more "Diversity" and "We're not hiring anymore (blacks)" is immoral no matter who you're turning it on. No matter what your reasoning for it.
    As someone whose actually been confronted with good ol' down home southern racism (I lived in and google this: White Settlement, Texas during the 1900's), having people call me the N-word and other colorful equivalents, and throw cans at me occasionally driving by in their pick-ups as I walked to work... I gotta say... it doens't matter to the person being descriminated against that you're trying to fight injustice by not hiring them. I just matters that they're not getting a chance to put food on the table or money in their pockets. I want you to know that I understand completely the argument your making...but that its the same argument they used to keep black people from buying houses in certain neighborhoods to keep up that gentrification. Doesn't matter to them that a black family might bring down property values or change the demographic... only that they can't buy a house they've saved for cause reasons.
    I respect your right to an opinion. I do. Nonetheless, as unpopular as it is right now...
    In my opinion...its immoral, and despicable and its hilarious because I have the niggling feeling that the majority of people (and not just on these boards) espousing it haven't had a taste of it themselves.

    I'd like to shift back to comics though. Unpopular Opinions. One that's actually been irking me even boiling my blood when I think about it?

    Sunspot.

    I got all these diversity defenders on here and there is little to no outrage about the whitewashing U.S.A. Avengers and then the Henry Zaga thing... Afro-Brazilian.... Afro-brazillian Someone should google that. Best chance to get a black character, diverse and powerful front and centers, best chance to represent an afro-brazillian at a time when Brazil is essentially trying to wipe them out and hide them and what do I hear around the boards "Shut up! Henry Zaga's Brazilian!" yeah. Ok.

    One of the things that I hate about the replacement thing they're doing is that Marvel was always diverse, and so there's lot of minorities that get scrubbed and looked over and will never get the chance at their book because they went this route.

    We got an iceman book and not a Northstar book.

    We get secret empire instead of a Powerman themed event.

    We get mighty whitey Carol Captain Marvel instead of Monica Rambeau Captain Marvel.

    I can't get a "Blade: of the supernatural" Or Eligh Bradley: The Patriot
    but I get miles morales and falcon cap...

    Ideally speaking we could get all or more of the titles but thats never going to happen when they're deciding "we need to push... THIS change" ff gets canceled 30,00 books... cancelled
    Other failing books get relaunches.
    Its all one big bubble of "chosen direction" vs "consumer support" its... frustrating to say the least they've chosen to go the path of least resistance on this one.
    I dunno...I don't agree that more minority heroes is about "revenge". We've had legacy and replacement heroes since the 50's and women and minorities have filled those roles since the 80's. No one back then thought it was about getting even with straight white men...they either liked the comics or didn't and simply moved on. Oh, i know there were upset fans, but there wasn't the same level of "Marvel is attacking me by not appealing to my personal tastes!" ( but who knows there wasn't an internet then)

    I actually agree with you about Northstar. He's a historically important character, you'd think there'd be an effort to showcase him a little more. Or at least Billy and Teddy who have kind of a fanbase.

    I like Carol and Monica, but at least three other people have used the Capt Marvel name between them...why do people keep trying to pit these two against each other?

    Blade died in development and you're not going to get Eli because of legal reasons. That's why we're getting an all new Patriot.

    We don't have an FF book because Ike Perlmutter. It's got nothing to do with "political correctness" or SJWs or "feminists" or tumblr...

  2. #1652
    Astonishing Member Ianbarreilles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    I dunno...I don't agree that more minority heroes is about "revenge". We've had legacy and replacement heroes since the 50's and women and minorities have filled those roles since the 80's. No one back then thought it was about getting even with straight white men...they either liked the comics or didn't and simply moved on. Oh, i know there were upset fans, but there wasn't the same level of "Marvel is attacking me by not appealing to my personal tastes!" ( but who knows there wasn't an internet then)

    I actually agree with you about Northstar. He's a historically important character, you'd think there'd be an effort to showcase him a little more. Or at least Billy and Teddy who have kind of a fanbase.

    I like Carol and Monica, but at least three other people have used the Capt Marvel name between them...why do people keep trying to pit these two against each other?

    Blade died in development and you're not going to get Eli because of legal reasons. That's why we're getting an all new Patriot.

    We don't have an FF book because Ike Perlmutter. It's got nothing to do with "political correctness" or SJWs or "feminists" or tumblr...
    I always wondered that too why fans insist on pitting Carol and Monica against each other as who should be captain marvel, I honestly personally felt Carol was more deserving of being captain marvel when it came to who should be the new captain marvel and who should take up the mantle of captain marvel and it felt like it was a natural progression of her character and where Carol as a character was at in her life not to mention the fact that she hadn't been captain marvel yet up to that point.

    I must say though when I say that Carol was more deserving then Monica to be captain marvel when they made the change back in 2012 I mean it as it was a logical progression of her character to have her finally become captain marvel and like I said it was something that marvel hadn't attempted to do with Carol's character up to that point so it was great to see Carol as a character mature and grow passed her days as ms.marvel and finally become captain marvel.
    Last edited by Ianbarreilles; 08-12-2017 at 07:28 PM.

  3. #1653
    Mighty Member Mary Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianbarreilles View Post
    I always wondered that too why fans insist on pitting Carol and Monica against each other as who should be captain marvel, I honestly personally felt Carol was more deserving of being captain marvel when it came to who should be the new captain marvel and who should take up the mantle of captain marvel and it felt like it was a natural progression of her character and where Carol as a character was at in her life not to mention the fact that she hadn't been captain marvel yet up to that point.

    I must say though when I say that Carol was more deserving then Monica to be captain marvel when they made the change back in 2012 I mean it as it was a logical progression of her character to have her finally become captain marvel and like I said it was something that marvel hadn't attempted to do with Carol's character up to that point so it was great to see Carol as a character mature and grow passed her days as ms.marvel and finally become captain marvel.
    I'm curious about this. It's as though you're saying that Carol becoming Capt. Marvel is a sort of "promotion" for her... is that how you see it? How is being capt. Marvel different than the other identities she's had before?

    I do agree though that it's a shame people are pitting Carol against Monica. And I like the name Spectrum for Monica, it's very original IMO.

  4. #1654
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianbarreilles View Post
    I always wondered that too why fans insist on pitting Carol and Monica against each other as who should be captain marvel, I honestly personally felt Carol was more deserving of being captain marvel when it came to who should be the new captain marvel and who should take up the mantle of captain marvel and it felt like it was a natural progression of her character and where Carol as a character was at in her life not to mention the fact that she hadn't been captain marvel yet up to that point.

    I must say though when I say that Carol was more deserving then Monica to be captain marvel when they made the change back in 2012 I mean it as it was a logical progression of her character to have her finally become captain marvel and like I said it was something that marvel hadn't attempted to do with Carol's character up to that point so it was great to see Carol as a character mature and grow passed her days as ms.marvel and finally become captain marvel.
    Well.... logical progression isn't the first term to come to mind. First she's Carol. Then she's Ms Marvel. Then she's Carol without powers. Then she's Binary with cosmic powers. Then she's Warbird with slightly less powers. Then she's Ms Marvel again. Only then does she become Capt Marvel.

  5. #1655
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    Disney should just give up and shut down publishing (as rumored). The books are a mess and the creative teams hopelessly lost in extra-ciricular politics when they need to be focusing on bringing up abysmal sales figures. Not to mention treating the fanbase like garbage. FFS, what kind of maniac "pre-blocks" potential customers from his Twitter feed when he can't sell to more than about 1 in 10 of his existing follower list?

  6. #1656
    Astonishing Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    But you can't shutdown publishing without completely ruining the ecosystem. Besides, where would you get future stories and fans from -- most of whom need that monthly fix or they'll completely lose interest in your product? Quality movies take too long to push out and, generally speaking, are pretty expensive endeavors. Even TV shows are pricey undertakings relative to publishing a comic book. And you never have to worry about ratings, re-runs, sponsors, financing, or studio contracts. You don't have to worry about writers going on strike. You don't even have to worry that much about instant public fallout...because I guaranty you if a movie or TV show was made about Captain America being a fascist all along, that would probably be the last Captain America movie made until 2037. With all of the comic book market analysts running around this forum, I think it's funny how no one ever mentions how completely screwed we'd all be if comics were never published. There has to be a better solution than cutting out the heart and soul of the industry.

  7. #1657
    Mighty Member nnelg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomStranger View Post
    Disney should just give up and shut down publishing (as rumored). The books are a mess and the creative teams hopelessly lost in extra-ciricular politics when they need to be focusing on bringing up abysmal sales figures. Not to mention treating the fanbase like garbage. FFS, what kind of maniac "pre-blocks" potential customers from his Twitter feed when he can't sell to more than about 1 in 10 of his existing follower list?
    They don't actually own Marvel. They're major stock holders though.

  8. #1658
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    I always wondered that too why fans insist on pitting Carol and Monica against each other as who should be captain marvel, I honestly personally felt Carol was more deserving of being captain marvel
    It's as though you're saying that Carol becoming Capt. Marvel is a sort of "promotion" for her..

    I'm gonna field this one... and I'm not trying to be condescending or call anyone out here but the answer is right here on the page.

    The second someone says "deserving"
    they have right off the bat at least mentally pit the two against each other, and chose the supremacy of one over the other.

    So its probably a false start to even ASK why people pit the 2 against each other. They were going to be cause they both had the name.

    Being named Captain Marvel is "PROBABLY" a promotion at Marvel comics to be honest. It took them years to wake up and go "Why the hell are we NOT pushing this Brand? Is it because of billy batson? Enough!"

    In my opinion Carol Danvers is everything wrong with inter-sectional feminism.

    Monica... lead the avengers, is arguably way more powerful. . . kept the name alive fore years when carol was on no ones radar.
    Its one of those "Marvel was diverse already things" that people tend to gloss over now that we have raging culture wars going on (and lets not try to deny that or get on a tangent, because not acknowledging it will lead to 8 years in the oval office instead of just 4) but... she's a "Black Girl" tm. Feminism is a thing, but there are a lot of black women who have explained in length that "White feminism" is what we're really seeing which is why it rarely confronts problems affecting women of other cultures. Does it ever? Sure, but primarily its focused on middle-class american w.a.s.p.s or at least that what it looks like to an outsider. ie. me.

    That means in addition to generally being statistically unpleasing to the white male eye there exists a tendency to only write Monica as as
    1.) B Tier 2) Angry/bossy 3.) Un-noticed. She doesn't even make people mad because she wasn't a buxom blonde sex fantasy. they don't see her as having lost her sexuality like people complain about carol being drawn like an entirely different character. They just don't see her at all. She's no platformed by need to uplift this new "feminist"(for lack of better term) version of Carol.
    You can say "Well she's in the ultimate's!" but she's NOT getting a Movie and she's NOT going be the person who knocks out thanos. Who the hell is going to go see a movie called "We're not sure what her name is" anyway

    here's something to think about:
    When Genis-Vell wants to establish a new identity for himself, he begins calling himself Photon. Rambeau confronts him, but she decides to let Genis keep the Photon alias after she came up with a name she liked better: Pulsar.
    When Genis becomes an adventurer, he is known as Captain Marvel like his father before him—which Rambeau resents. After she, Starfox and Genis team up to defeat the Controller, Genis tries to concede the Captain Marvel title to Rambeau since he felt she was more worthy of it. Rambeau declines out of respect for the Mar-Vell legacy and adopts a new alias as Photon

    You can literally take "Genis-vell and replace with carol danvers" change the relation ship from son whatever carol was to marvel and we can all laugh at how monica just doesn't get to have a name.


    I do agree though that it's a shame people are pitting Carol against Monica. And I like the name Spectrum for Monica, it's very original IMO.
    Hmm... Its like people who like the name "Binary" for Carol Danvers.
    Also, its no where near original. Its terrible. The Squadron supreme has had "a spectrum" of some ilk since its inception. "Dr.Spectrum" most often but thats even better because of the honorific.
    The fact that they showed up and were operating at the same time killing namor. *facepalm*

    So. Tl;dr...
    Monica, and Carol were put against each other the second someone said "Wait... we already have Monica Captain Marvel literally just waiting for the name." but she's the wrong type of girl power.

    Funny... I'm not even the guy always beating his chest about race. I believe in meritocracy more than anything, but really some of these chocies, really don't stand up to much scrutiny.
    Some of it actually IS ideological, and some of it really is "marketability" based on race.
    Most of it is because "we said so" but really....

    Sunspot, was immortal for many many issues, then cable said "I made you the leader cannonball, cause you're the one who is actually immortal"

    Sunspot. Should be depicted as black... and yes he should be leading teams like he is now but his first appearance had to be ignored to get him more palatable...
    Captain Marvel. Easily could be black right now... but... people are "tired of hearing about race". Feminism and Lgbt, and Cute muslim fan-girls are the in thing.
    The replacements though are ridiculous or lazy. Ignore Existing characters, and just make some of the popular ones "diverse". Resulting in? Various people uniting to stand against
    diversity. Either in public or in private. Smh. Fail.
    Last edited by Midnight_v; 08-12-2017 at 10:25 PM.
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  9. #1659
    Astonishing Member Ianbarreilles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    Well.... logical progression isn't the first term to come to mind. First she's Carol. Then she's Ms Marvel. Then she's Carol without powers. Then she's Binary with cosmic powers. Then she's Warbird with slightly less powers. Then she's Ms Marvel again. Only then does she become Capt Marvel.
    You have a point marvel is largely to blame for a lot of confusion with what they wanted to do with carol's character for the entirety of the 80's and 90's and a lot of that can be traced back to the royally fucked up decision they made and mistake they made in thinking that the story of avengers 200 aka the rape of Carol Danvers was a good idea... and that story nearly ruined and negavtively impacted Carol's character for decades and I would even say that this damage that they did to the character continued throughout the 2000-2004 period of her publication history, but I think around the time house of m happened then the brain reed ms.marvel series that ran for 50 issue from 2006-2010 that's when I think marvel at least had a idea of where they wanted to take carols character and that's when we began to see Carol in the comics more consistently month to month and year to year in the comics and then the summer of 2012 came and she became captain marvel and it just felt so deserved and earned and right and a natural progression of Carol's character in terms of where she was at in her life at that point.
    Last edited by Ianbarreilles; 08-12-2017 at 10:48 PM.

  10. #1660

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomStranger View Post
    Disney should just give up and shut down publishing (as rumored). The books are a mess and the creative teams hopelessly lost in extra-ciricular politics when they need to be focusing on bringing up abysmal sales figures. Not to mention treating the fanbase like garbage. FFS, what kind of maniac "pre-blocks" potential customers from his Twitter feed when he can't sell to more than about 1 in 10 of his existing follower list?
    But the publishing division is still making money. There's no sense in shutting down a division that turns a profit. Whether it's a large profit is actually irrelevant. Shutting it down would cost more than keeping it open does. So Marvel's publishing division will remain open until it stops turning a profit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    Its one of those "Marvel was diverse already things" that people tend to gloss over now that we have raging culture wars going on (and lets not try to deny that or get on a tangent, because not acknowledging it will lead to 8 years in the oval office instead of just 4) but... she's a "Black Girl" tm. Feminism is a thing, but there are a lot of black women who have explained in length that "White feminism" is what we're really seeing which is why it rarely confronts problems affecting women of other cultures. Does it ever? Sure, but primarily its focused on middle-class american w.a.s.p.s or at least that what it looks like to an outsider. ie. me.
    While I disagree with the idea that Carol took Monica's name - the odds were always slim that Monica would get the name back, and if I'm honest, she was given the name in the most contrived way possible in the first place which has always bothered me - I do agree that racism was the biggest reason why she wasn't going to get the name back. I don't think it's fair to criticize Marvel for it, but it's absolutely fair to criticize Marvel for not making Monica one of their biggest characters. She had the potential. As you pointed out, she led the Avengers for a while in the '80s. But then editorial desire for a more "classic" line-up meant she was screwed over, made to look stupid and then de-powered and left nearly-dead. And she never really recovered from that. She mostly ended up doing guest spots after that. Al Ewing's the first writer in 30 years to make a real effort to push Monica. (Warren Ellis obviously gets credit for bringing her back into public consciousness with Nextwave, but that book was always a weird beast, doing its own thing, and of dubious continuity from the start. So it doesn't really count as an effort to push her.) Unfortunately, Ewing does books that don't have A-list characters, so no one reads them.

    And, yeah, Marvel Studios still demonstrates sexism and racism, in regards to the characters it chooses to use and in what roles, so the idea of the movies pushing a Woman Of Colour as a legitimate powerhouse is hard to buy right now. Black Panther will be the first Marvel film where black women get to, you know, actually matter to anything that's going on. (Hell, the only human WOC to have a role that lasted more than one scene was Dr. Cho in Age of Ultron. Zoe Saldana's bi-racial, but her character's green, so it's iffy representation in that sense.)

  11. #1661
    Incredible Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    Captain Marvel. Easily could be black right now... but... people are "tired of hearing about race". Feminism and Lgbt, and Cute muslim fan-girls are the in thing.
    Funny claim when we actually have had a queer Captain Marvel who was ALSO female and was just as shunned as Monica was... perhaps even more, because she was killed and never brought back again. Mar-Vell also had another gay child who never got to honor his father's legacy and lord knows if he ever will because of Carol. So no, Marvel doesn't actually give a fair push to most of its LGBTQ characters. And yeah, it's nice that America and Iceman have a solo book, but everybody knows those books have no guarantee of lasting that long, and once they end, it'll probably take years until they'll have another shot. And the only queer character they have that is a guarantee to be heavily featured consistently (Deadpool) is only allowed to be queer when it is the butt of a joke. We might never see Deadpool marrying a man like he married Shiklah or having a love story in a movie like he did with Vanessa, but people will proudly tap themselves on the back for him being queer. So no, LGBTQ is not really that much of a thing.

  12. #1662

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    It's about working to remove the system barriers in place to people who aren't cishet white men.
    But you can't POINT to the parts of the system that exist and are "barriers". It's just chasing ghosts. It's tilting at windmills. It's blurting statistics in a way that makes no sense. It's ignoring reality

    As for Mags Visaggio...from everything I've seen, she's a violent borderline-unhinged person that throws out accusations like rice at a wedding.

    Also her writing is terrible. Dunno if that's an unpopular opinion (I think sales would suggest it's an accurate opinion)
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  13. #1663
    I am Storm's fiance RLAAMJR.'s Avatar
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    Marvel should consider that when they make new characters, or use an old character for something big, it should be a character coming from another country, for example, from Philippines or Tajikistan, etc. Other countries need representatives. It's normal that Marvel has a lot of white characters. And there's already a good number of black characters. Focus on representing countries, not race or color. Because if they think of races or color, we get another black character. The world is not just black and white. We need the real minority representation. Just look at how MCU handles their movies. They even made the movie version of Nick Fury black. Why not making Nick Fury an Asian instead? They already have Black Panther, Falcon and War Machine. Did we get a main Avengers member who is an Asian? But switching color is not a good idea. Just make new characters (or reuse an old character) representing something else and make them relevant.
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  14. #1664
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianbarreilles View Post
    You have a point marvel is largely to blame for a lot of confusion with what they wanted to do with carol's character for the entirety of the 80's and 90's and a lot of that can be traced back to the royally fucked up decision they made and mistake they made in thinking that the story of avengers 200 aka the rape of Carol Danvers was a good idea... and that story nearly ruined and negavtively impacted Carol's character for decades and I would even say that this damage that they did to the character continued throughout the 2000-2004 period of her publication history, but I think around the time house of m happened then the brain reed ms.marvel series that ran for 50 issue from 2006-2010 that's when I think marvel at least had a idea of where they wanted to take carols character and that's when we began to see Carol in the comics more consistently month to month and year to year in the comics and then the summer of 2012 came and she became captain marvel and it just felt so deserved and earned and right and a natural progression of Carol's character in terms of where she was at in her life at that point.
    I see what you're saying, but I can see someone else just as easily making the argument that she moved beyond being spin off character and progressed to being a cosmic hero way back when. And that bringing her back to being either Ms Marvel or Capt Marvel is a regression. I'm not upset or criticizing, just making the point that she's been zig-zagged around. There wasn't a logical plan until recently, and even this plan has more to do with licensing etc than deep character progression.

  15. #1665
    Astonishing Member Ianbarreilles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    I see what you're saying, but I can see someone else just as easily making the argument that she moved beyond being spin off character and progressed to being a cosmic hero way back when. And that bringing her back to being either Ms Marvel or Capt Marvel is a regression. I'm not upset or criticizing, just making the point that she's been zig-zagged around. There wasn't a logical plan until recently, and even this plan has more to do with licensing etc than deep character progression.
    We'll have to agree to disagree I don't think dc deserves to get back the name rights of captain marvel period in my opinion and besides I think dc have more or less moved on from even trying to get it back.

    With that said I do think that in a way yeah the fact that marvel needs to be publishing a captain marvel title/series after a certain period to retain the name rights does play a part in the decision making process, but the thing is you're basically assuming that is the entire reason behind why Carol was chosen or the fact according to you at least that is the entire reason why marvel decided to bring back a captain marvel series/title period regardless if it was Carol or not back when they did and it's honestly ridiculous to say that was the entire reason why what happened well happened.

    And unpopular opinion but I hated her binary and warbird days I view them as the lowest point and worst point in Carol's history to be honest like I said I don't think she really recovered from the damage that the 80's and 90's era of marvel did to her until around 2005 or 2006 from that point on I think she finally was on the path that I honestly felt she should've been.
    Last edited by Ianbarreilles; 08-13-2017 at 12:39 AM.

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