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  1. #61

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    You know I would have loved a series on Jason Todd pre 52. I think if Judd Winick would have moved him past Bruce and keep doing more stuff like in Lost Days it would have been good for Jason. I like the idea of Jason traveling the world and wiping out bad people. But anyways i'm glad he has a home in the universe

  2. #62
    Inquisitive Dzetoun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daredevil is Legend View Post
    You know I would have loved a series on Jason Todd pre 52. I think if Judd Winick would have moved him past Bruce and keep doing more stuff like in Lost Days it would have been good for Jason. I like the idea of Jason traveling the world and wiping out bad people. But anyways i'm glad he has a home in the universe
    Well, as others have said the problem is that DC would never sacrifice any of its major cash cow villains, no matter how hard the writers argued, so that kind of thing would be hard to sustain. The other, maybe even bigger problem, is that if you move Jason past Bruce, sooner or later you are going to have to try and move Bruce past him (in theory you would not have to, but in actuality Bruce by the 2000s was far too dominant a character to be ignored, it was not like 1980 when Dick Grayson could more or less stay permanently away) and then you are right back into that whole complicated tangle again.

  3. #63
    Inquisitive Dzetoun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oasis1313 View Post
    Okay. The "New 52". Every last panel of it.
    Then you found Bruce and Jason to be better characterized in the old continuity? How so, specifically? Please, no "everything was better before the New 52." What about Jason and Bruce specifically was better?

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzetoun View Post
    Well, as others have said the problem is that DC would never sacrifice any of its major cash cow villains, no matter how hard the writers argued, so that kind of thing would be hard to sustain. The other, maybe even bigger problem, is that if you move Jason past Bruce, sooner or later you are going to have to try and move Bruce past him (in theory you would not have to, but in actuality Bruce by the 2000s was far too dominant a character to be ignored, it was not like 1980 when Dick Grayson could more or less stay permanently away) and then you are right back into that whole complicated tangle again.
    Well,you could always create villains for him. Punisher doesn't kill big name villains so I still think it could've work. As for Batman,I don't think you have to ignore their history,Batman could still be a big part of the story through flash backs and dialogue. I think it would've been okay if they ran into each others every so often.Just my opinion

  5. #65
    THE RED HOOD JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daredevil is Legend View Post
    You know I would have loved a series on Jason Todd pre 52. I think if Judd Winick would have moved him past Bruce and keep doing more stuff like in Lost Days it would have been good for Jason. I like the idea of Jason traveling the world and wiping out bad people. But anyways i'm glad he has a home in the universe
    I would have enjoyed something like that myself before the reboot especially if they created some new villains for him to face instead of the standard Bat villians like you suggested in a later post. Anything that even made an attempt at getting Jason to move on with his life would have been welcome to me at the time in much the same way the changes that were made to the character in the N52 were welcome ones to me. I'd have also liked to see what they would have done with the partnership between Jason and Scarlet myself. That partnership had the potential for some really interesting character development for Jason and might have made him come to understand the things that Bruce went through with him a bit better. Personally, though I'm just glad to see DC trying something good and decent for him to erase all those years of "bad Robin" jibes that writers liked to throw in whenever he was mentioned.
    Last edited by JasonTodd428; 05-08-2014 at 09:29 AM.

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  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonTodd428 View Post
    I would have enjoyed something like that myself before the reboot especially if they created some new villains for him to face instead of the standard Bat villians like you suggested in a later post. Anything that even made an attempt at getting Jason to move on with his life would have been welcome to me at the time in much the same way the changes that were made to the character in the N52 were welcome ones to me. I'd have also liked to see what they would have done with the partnership between Jason and Scarlet myself. That partnership had the potential for some really interesting character development for Jason and might have made him come to understand the things that Bruce went through with him a bit better. Personally, though I'm just glad to see DC trying something good and decent for him to erase all those years of "bad Robin" jibes that writers liked to throw in whenever he was mentioned.
    Agreed 100%

  7. #67
    Inquisitive Dzetoun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daredevil is Legend View Post
    Well,you could always create villains for him. Punisher doesn't kill big name villains so I still think it could've work. As for Batman,I don't think you have to ignore their history,Batman could still be a big part of the story through flash backs and dialogue. I think it would've been okay if they ran into each others every so often.Just my opinion
    That's a good point about the Punisher. I'm not sure it could have worked the same way with Jason, though. Frank Castle never had a history with major villains before becoming the Punisher, whereas whatever Jason did his history would be looming, along with the question of why he was dealing with penny-ante types when he knows of an entire city filled with much more lucrative targets. But, we will never know, unless DC decides to put an alternate Jason somewhere in the multiverse.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzetoun View Post
    That's a good point about the Punisher. I'm not sure it could have worked the same way with Jason, though. Frank Castle never had a history with major villains before becoming the Punisher, whereas whatever Jason did his history would be looming, along with the question of why he was dealing with penny-ante types when he knows of an entire city filled with much more lucrative targets. But, we will never know, unless DC decides to put an alternate Jason somewhere in the multiverse.
    Well he could always say what he said in the first issue of Outlaws that Batman and Gotham deserve each others.And then he could have left to make his own mark on the world and make new enemies and allies and eventually return to deal with his unfinished business with Bruce and then they could both come to realize that they respect each others but they're better off apart. But you also make a good point as well about them having histories with major characters

  9. #69
    THE RED HOOD JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Yeah. Being a part of the Bat Family, especially if one is a former partner to Batman, does have this side effect. It also makes it harder for the characters in that not only might they have their own rogues galleries but they also have Batman's to contend with whenever they are in Gotham simply because of that connection. Therefore fans expect those characters to have run-ins and Jason has a particular history with the Joker. Whether you believe the Joker's tale at the end of the RHatO zero issue or not the fact remains that the clown killed him and so the two are forever connected in the minds of fans.
    Last edited by JasonTodd428; 05-08-2014 at 05:23 PM.

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  10. #70
    Nostalgia Fanwanker Pharozonk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oasis1313 View Post
    It feels like DC has lately been watering down Jason's badassedness. Like him better as a black sheep.
    I disagree. I loathe the Nu52 with a passion, but what they did with Jason was a fantastic idea. I love Jason as Robin, but after Winnick finished UTRH, Jason wasn't really being written very well and quickly descended into faux Punisher territory. This new Jason is more likable and is more developed in my opinion.
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  11. #71
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    You don`t need to go psycho and shoot everybody in the end to be the black sheep of the family. You only need to have tension looming around and be a contrast to the ideias perpetuated by the head of the family. In this regard Jason will always be the black sheep of the family, as one can read in Superman/Batman Annual#1 for the lastest example.

    In the end, I feel (and agree) that if DC watered down a bit on the edge is for the best interest on the character for the long haul. You either turn him completely (and lose interactions that make sense to exist) or have him the black sheep who works his own agenda but that can show up to help if something huge blows up (which have been the case in 90% of the interactions since the New52 kicked in). The grey is still there, the edge is still there. It`s just not overblown. And frankly that seems to work for the best, considering the fanbase response at large between the new stuff and the stuff post UDRH.

    Ergo, while I feel for Grayson and Drake fans, I am glad DC has been smart about Jason.

  12. #72
    Rookie Member Jay Kay's Avatar
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    Yeah, honestly, I think the New 52 has really helped Jason as a character. I mean, his appearances before it were really...varying in quality, to say the least.

    First you had his reintroduction in Under the Hood. The Infinite Crisis tie-in at the end nearly ruins it, but the core concept of it was solid and executed perfectly. Then for a few years he was either play-acting in other people's costumes, or was in Countdown. His appearance in Morrison's Batman & Robin was solid, even if he was more a symbol for a 90s anti-hero version of Batman. You had Winick's Lost Days, which was very formulaic and dull (Jason trains with amoral mercs, is somehow shocked when amoral mercs does something amoral, beats them up, and somewhere we get a moment where he sees something with the Batfamily and starts to cry), and then his brief arc on Batman & Robin, which I think cemented that while Winick laid out a great foundation for a resurrected Jason, that's basically all he had in his holster.

    Now, while I'm surprised that right now Jason will probably be closer to the Bat-Family than Dick, he's doing pretty well. Red Hood has not only kept the foundation that Winick set up that worked so well, but also gave Jason his own little world that makes him work as his own characters, and thrown him with some characters, Roy and Kory, which makes for some interesting character moments.

    So yeah, while I would say that some characters didn't fare very well in the New 52, I think Jason, along with Roy and Starfire, most definitely have and it's the best that any of those characters have been written in years.

  13. #73
    THE RED HOOD JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Kay View Post
    Yeah, honestly, I think the New 52 has really helped Jason as a character. I mean, his appearances before it were really...varying in quality, to say the least.

    First you had his reintroduction in Under the Hood. The Infinite Crisis tie-in at the end nearly ruins it, but the core concept of it was solid and executed perfectly. Then for a few years he was either play-acting in other people's costumes, or was in Countdown. His appearance in Morrison's Batman & Robin was solid, even if he was more a symbol for a 90s anti-hero version of Batman. You had Winick's Lost Days, which was very formulaic and dull (Jason trains with amoral mercs, is somehow shocked when amoral mercs does something amoral, beats them up, and somewhere we get a moment where he sees something with the Batfamily and starts to cry), and then his brief arc on Batman & Robin, which I think cemented that while Winick laid out a great foundation for a resurrected Jason, that's basically all he had in his holster.

    Now, while I'm surprised that right now Jason will probably be closer to the Bat-Family than Dick, he's doing pretty well. Red Hood has not only kept the foundation that Winick set up that worked so well, but also gave Jason his own little world that makes him work as his own characters, and thrown him with some characters, Roy and Kory, which makes for some interesting character moments.

    So yeah, while I would say that some characters didn't fare very well in the New 52, I think Jason, along with Roy and Starfire, most definitely have and it's the best that any of those characters have been written in years.
    I agree especially with the bolded part here. It is a little strange to see Jason actually working with members of the Bat Family rather than fighting them all the time but to me it's a good change because it shows that he is willing to and, more importantly, can set aside his differences with them so that they can work together. I've really enjoyed seeing him interacting with them and I absolutely love seeing him with Roy and Kori. That combination of personalities just works so well and it does give Jason some much needed grounding, which helps take the edge off his constant rage, as well as character moments that have gone a long way toward his character development.

    I think of all the Robin's Jason got by far the best deal in the reboot.

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  14. #74
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Well Jason seemingly made out well in the 52 because he was dead more than he was ever alive, so he was never very developed in first place. So unlike Dick or Tim there wasn't really anything to take away from the character, because besides dieing and becoming Red Hood he never really did anything. He could only really gain development.

    Though with that being said i am among those who believe his new 52 development has watered him down considerably. While he now might be more developed, he's also now become rather redundant and has pretty much lost his impact. It'll be interesting to see what they do with him after RHatO runs its course. Which right now seems like its just kind of spinning its wheels.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 05-09-2014 at 02:05 PM.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonTodd428 View Post
    I think of all the Robin's Jason got by far the best deal in the reboot.
    He's the only Robin I like in the New 52, though hopefully Seely and co. will change that.

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