View Poll Results: Who is your favourite 616 Marvel LGBT character?

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  • ANOLE [Victor Borkowski]

    18 2.91%
  • BLING! [Roxanne ‘Roxy’ Washington]

    10 1.62%
  • CULLEN BLOODSTONE

    18 2.91%
  • DAKEN AKIHIRO

    33 5.33%
  • HULKLING [Theodore ‘Teddy’ Altman]

    31 5.01%
  • KARMA [Xi’an Coy Mahn]

    32 5.17%
  • KAROLINA DEAN

    37 5.98%
  • LOKI LAUFEYSON, God of Mischief

    53 8.56%
  • MOONDRAGON [Heather Douglas]

    33 5.33%
  • MYSTIQUE [Raven Darkholme]

    93 15.02%
  • NORTHSTAR [Jean-Paul Beaubier]

    49 7.92%
  • PRODIGY [David Alleyne]

    19 3.07%
  • RICTOR [Julio Esteban Ricter]

    28 4.52%
  • SHATTERSTAR [Gaveedra-7]

    39 6.30%
  • WICCAN [William ‘Billy’ Kaplan], the Demiurge

    126 20.36%
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  1. #11971
    Fantastic Member Lutecius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    Yeah shame on them.
    Wait, wasn't Daken a despicable cold blooded murderer long before appearing in Iceman? Is this just some haha fanfic shipping or do people actually want it to happen in comics?

  2. #11972
    Incredible Member Dante Milton's Avatar
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    Thanks y'all.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChibaMariners View Post
    Who is that on the bottom left?
    That is Angela and Sera.

  3. #11973
    Mighty Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lutecius View Post
    Wait, wasn't Daken a despicable cold blooded murderer long before appearing in Iceman? Is this just some haha fanfic shipping or do people actually want it to happen in comics?
    Probably both. That's just how fandom works. But to play the devil's advocate here, a character's morality shouldn't really dictate how much people enjoy them on a fictional level because it's, you know, fiction. People root for the bad guys all the time, and that's okay. I'm not particularly a fan of Bobby and Daken being an actual couple, but I don't think it's bad if someone is because they like the storyline potential that exists in there.

  4. #11974
    Fantastic Member Lutecius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    Probably both. That's just how fandom works. But to play the devil's advocate here, a character's morality shouldn't really dictate how much people enjoy them on a fictional level because it's, you know, fiction. People root for the bad guys all the time, and that's okay. I'm not particularly a fan of Bobby and Daken being an actual couple, but I don't think it's bad if someone is because they like the storyline potential that exists in there.
    I have no issue with relatable or charming villains but what would be the implications for Bobby? Wouldn't willfully ignoring Daken's crimes (that he never atoned for) make Iceman at best, a mindless halfwit or more logically, a horrible person himself? I think he already doesn't come off very well after this run. That would be the final nail in the coffin.

  5. #11975
    Mighty Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lutecius View Post
    I have no issue with relatable or charming villains but what would be the implications for Bobby? Wouldn't willfully ignoring Daken's crimes (that he never atoned for) make Iceman at best, a mindless halfwit or more logically, a horrible person himself? I think he already doesn't come off very well after this run. That would be the final nail in the coffin.
    You're just assuming that people who ship them think Bobby should think of him as some sort of prince charming and there would be no conflict in that relationship. I think the conflict might be precisely what draws some people to this pairing. ''My head says no, but my heart says go'' is an ancient trope that's used ALL THE TIME with cis-het characters who fall in love with the wrong person, so why exactly can't the same happen with a gay couple? Or maybe some people believe that Daken can be redeemed, and Bobby could be the one to help him with that. Shipping is not black and white and there are so many different reasons why some people would want to ship something. You can't really make some universal rule for that, so we just have to deal with different tastes.

  6. #11976
    Incredible Member Wiccan615's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lutecius View Post
    I have no issue with relatable or charming villains but what would be the implications for Bobby? Wouldn't willfully ignoring Daken's crimes (that he never atoned for) make Iceman at best, a mindless halfwit or more logically, a horrible person himself? I think he already doesn't come off very well after this run. That would be the final nail in the coffin.
    You do realize that Bobby had a thing with Mystique right? Whom is arguably just as bad, if not worse than Daken. I also think most people here would agree that his recent solo has done good things for his character development but your mileage will always vary. I don’t think him dating Daken would be a “deal breaker” but I do understand that it’s not everyone’s cup of tea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    You're just assuming that people who ship them think Bobby should think of him as some sort of prince charming and there would be no conflict in that relationship. I think the conflict might be precisely what draws some people to this pairing. ''My head says no, but my heart says go'' is an ancient trope that's used ALL THE TIME with cis-het characters who fall in love with the wrong person, so why exactly can't the same happen with a gay couple? Or maybe some people believed that Daken can be redeemed, and Bobby could be the one to help him with that. Shipping is not black and white and there are so many different reasons why some people would want to ship something. You can't really make some universal rule for that, so we just have to deal with different tastes.
    Well said, how we view relationships in fiction, and how they develop in fiction, isn’t always the same as expectations within reality. Hero/Antagonist ships are super common and usually a lot of fun. Batman/Catwoman, Spidey/Black Cat, etc, are popular dynamics. Bobby/Daken is polarizing but I see the appeal, there’s potential for character development on both ends, especially with both characters’ history with grappling with certain issues pertaining to self worth and dysfunctional childhoods and family dynamics. They also have very different queer identities/experiences and seeing that intersection could be interesting.
    Last edited by Wiccan615; Yesterday at 08:33 PM.
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  7. #11977
    Fantastic Member Lutecius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    You're just assuming that people who ship them think Bobby should think of him as some sort of prince charming and there would be no conflict in that relationship. I think the conflict might be precisely what draws some people to this pairing. ''My head says no, but my heart says go'' is an ancient trope that's used ALL THE TIME with cis-het characters who fall in love with the wrong person, so why exactly can't the same happen with a gay couple? Or maybe some people believe that Daken can be redeemed, and Bobby could be the one to help him with that. Shipping is not black and white and there are so many different reasons why some people would want to ship something. You can't really make some universal rule for that, so we just have to deal with different tastes.
    I don't know, attraction is one thing but actually dating a shitbag like Daken is something else.

    I can't think of many example of heroes dating really vicious villains who haven't been reformed for years or somehow retconned as not so horrible after all. Scemma comes to mind but then again, she had joined his side for years when they had an affair. Jean wasn't dead anymore and Emma was only indirectly responsible for her death. The worst crime she confessed to Cyclops was watching as Shaw killed the other aspiring White Queens (who would likely have acted the same, had they been picked).
    Then there's Mystique sleeping with Wolverine and Forge. But that was before she murdered Moira and (as unrealistic as it seemed) she had never been shown killing innocent people. The only ones who had any kind of vaguely romantic interaction with her after that were Fantomex (who turned out to be a dangerous nutcase himself)... and Bobby.

    Again, I don't mind this kind of pairing in slash, rule 34 or forum memes but I expect a little consistency in comics. Daken would need one hell of a retcon to be redeemed.

  8. #11978
    Fantastic Member Lutecius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan615 View Post
    You do realize that Bobby had a thing with Mystique right? Whom is arguably just as bad, if not worse than Daken. I also think most people here would agree that his recent solo has done good things for his character development but your mileage will always vary. I don’t think him dating Daken would be a “deal breaker” but I do understand that it’s not everyone’s cup of tea.



    Well said, how we view relationships in fiction, and how they develop in fiction, isn’t always the same as expectations within reality. Hero/Antagonist ships are super common and usually a lot of fun. Batman/Catwoman, Spidey/Black Cat, etc, are popular dynamics. Bobby/Daken is polarizing but I see the appeal, there’s potential for character development on both ends, especially with both characters’ history with grappling with certain issues pertaining to self worth and dysfunctional childhoods and family dynamics. They also have very different queer identities/experiences and seeing that intersection could be interesting.
    Neither Catwoman nor Black Cat would randomly murder people.
    As for Mystique, yes, that was another not so bright moment.

  9. #11979
    Incredible Member Wiccan615's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lutecius View Post
    Neither Catwoman nor Black Cat would randomly murder people.
    As for Mystique, yes, that was another not so bright moment.
    I mean, it depends on how wide you set the bar, but they still fit that morally gray/ antagonistic character having an affair with the hero trope. Either way, it’s definitely not out of Bobby’s continuity for him to get ensnared into these types of relationships. Again, I’m not saying it’s ideal but I see the appeal and the potential.

    I also think it depends on whether or not you think Daken is capable of redemption. Half the fan base sees him as a merciless killer beyond redemption whilst the other views him as someone whom is morally gray and largely acting out due to his tramautic past. And we have seen villainous mutants have redemption arcs in the past afterall.
    Last edited by Wiccan615; Yesterday at 09:31 PM.
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  10. #11980
    Incredible Member Wiccan615's Avatar
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    Although I think it’s missing quite a few examples (I am positive that Nightwing has hooked up with a villainess before but perhaps my memory is shoddy), apparently there’s an entire tvtropes page for this specific trope lmfao

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...DatingCatwoman
    "It's not about adding diversity for the sake of diversity, it's about subtracting homogeneity for the sake of realism."
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