View Poll Results: Who is your favourite 616 Marvel LGBT character?

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  • ANOLE [Victor Borkowski]

    18 2.91%
  • BLING! [Roxanne ‘Roxy’ Washington]

    10 1.62%
  • CULLEN BLOODSTONE

    18 2.91%
  • DAKEN AKIHIRO

    33 5.33%
  • HULKLING [Theodore ‘Teddy’ Altman]

    31 5.01%
  • KARMA [Xi’an Coy Mahn]

    32 5.17%
  • KAROLINA DEAN

    37 5.98%
  • LOKI LAUFEYSON, God of Mischief

    53 8.56%
  • MOONDRAGON [Heather Douglas]

    33 5.33%
  • MYSTIQUE [Raven Darkholme]

    93 15.02%
  • NORTHSTAR [Jean-Paul Beaubier]

    49 7.92%
  • PRODIGY [David Alleyne]

    19 3.07%
  • RICTOR [Julio Esteban Ricter]

    28 4.52%
  • SHATTERSTAR [Gaveedra-7]

    39 6.30%
  • WICCAN [William ‘Billy’ Kaplan], the Demiurge

    126 20.36%
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  1. #11926
    Extraordinary Member Fokken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beetle View Post
    Whether Wiccan and Speed are mutants or not depends on what their origin actually is and whether they are actually genetically related to Wanda.

    At the moment I believe the explanation is that they are the souls of Wanda and Vision's twins, sent back in time and born to regular humans. But that doesn't explain why Billy and Tommy are identical to each other or why Magneto seemed to believe they shared a physical resemblance to a younger Wanda and Pietro. There has to be a genetic component to their relationship to Wanda.
    And if there is a genetic component, say Wanda's DNA overrode the genetics of the Kaplans and Shepherds when their souls were reincarnated there, then their mutant status would depend on if Wanda and Pietro have the X-gene or not (which is up in the air at best)

    Personally I think Wanda unwittingly created Billy and Tommy at the height of her power, retrieved their souls from wherever they were, altered memories and gave them the normal lives and families she never could. And if that's the case then she would have created them when she thought she was a mutant so she could have made them with the X-gene.
    I would agree with the "I'm a mutant, so I made mutant babies" -- whether conscious or subconscious.


    Per Xavin:
    It's messy and it's not the ideal portrayal of a genderqueer character. But there's potential there for an interesting story analogous to someone needing an outside push to start exploring their gender identity.
    Yes.
    The biggest achievement in my mind with Xavin is that XAVIN IS THOUGHT-PROVOKING. The character's existence/arc makes for an excellent platform for discussion -- gender identity, sexual fluidity, cultural sensitivity, etc etc.
    "Um, blah, blah, blah. And, Girl Power. Feminism, d'you know what I mean?"

  2. #11927
    Astonishing Member legion_quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beetle View Post

    And frankly I'm not crazy about Julie and Karolina's relationship since we've been told it's a good relationship more than shown. It feels very shallow. They've held hands and kissed while flying a few times, wow.
    That's just because as characters, they rarely appear, and now Karoline is appearing, the writer is doing some queerbaiting tumblr romance with Nico instead of exploring an actual lesbian relationship.

    Xavin causes more problems than the character is worth imo, get a proper trans character up to bat, one that comes with struggles and actually tells the story of being trans, not just an alien that shape shifts and gives 0 fs about it. It's not going to headline a book; I doubt we will ever see KoiBoy as a solo star, the audience just isnt there, but a mini as a spin off of a character in a team book, or even the way he was just introduced and it wasnt made a big deal of, but could be a story for some time, sure. You could get that sold for 4 issues.

    That's the issue I think any minority character will always have - it'd be great to have a big discussion about gender identity and fluidity and things like that - but the average reader of comics wont buy it, so it'll get canned and Marvel will second guess doing it again or using that characteristic as a trait to focus on.

    Sad as it may be, Marvel is a business and not a social concern. They should definitely include more stories that tackle issues, but some issues are just never going to be big enough to be worth it for them. That's why we have smaller companies that can tackle those things, and have to look for the small wins to help Marvel realise there is an audience for some things.
    I will raise my throne above the Stars of God

  3. #11928
    Mighty Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anduinel View Post
    I think Shatterstar has the best chance just due to the tone of the Deadpool films. It might not be anything serious, but I could see something like Wade giving Shatty a Bugs Bunny kiss, obvs played for laughs, then having Shatty either return it later or ask if they can do it again or some such.
    Not only due to the tone of the movie, but also due to the R-Rated nature, which gives them more room for being risky. And after the massive success of the first movie even with the ban on China, FOX probably feels a lot more comfortable doing things without having to cater to a more conservative audience. It's not ideal, but Deadpool might really be our best shot right now. With X-Force in the cards, I'm hoping Ricstar will be a thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beetle View Post
    Whether Wiccan and Speed are mutants or not depends on what their origin actually is and whether they are actually genetically related to Wanda.

    At the moment I believe the explanation is that they are the souls of Wanda and Vision's twins, sent back in time and born to regular humans. But that doesn't explain why Billy and Tommy are identical to each other or why Magneto seemed to believe they shared a physical resemblance to a younger Wanda and Pietro. There has to be a genetic component to their relationship to Wanda.
    Eh, I'm not so sure about that. I mean, there was nothing naturally genetic about Wanda's pregnancy in the first place. She wasn't inseminated in any way science could possibly explain, so I think it's a stretch to try to apply it to Billy and Tommy as well, specially when there's reincarnation involved. Magic and reality warping are all the explanation you need as to why Billy and Tommy look the way they do. Later writers could always retcon their origin to try and make sense of the genetic argument, I guess, but as their origin stands right now, I don't really buy it.
    Last edited by Drops Of Venus; 02-13-2018 at 11:00 AM.

  4. #11929
    Mighty Member NexusTenebrare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beetle View Post
    Whether Wiccan and Speed are mutants or not depends on what their origin actually is and whether they are actually genetically related to Wanda.
    That's not technically correct. Whatever their origins, they could still be mutants. Mutants don't need to be born from mutant parents. It's just more likely.
    So whatever their connection to Wanda (who I'm pretty sure is officially no longer a mutant) , unless Marvel specifically states otherwise, Billy and Tommy could be mutants.
    #EmmaWasRight

  5. #11930
    Fantastic Member Beetle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by legion_quest View Post
    That's just because as characters, they rarely appear, and now Karoline is appearing, the writer is doing some queerbaiting tumblr romance with Nico instead of exploring an actual lesbian relationship.

    Xavin causes more problems than the character is worth imo, get a proper trans character up to bat, one that comes with struggles and actually tells the story of being trans, not just an alien that shape shifts and gives 0 fs about it. It's not going to headline a book; I doubt we will ever see KoiBoy as a solo star, the audience just isnt there, but a mini as a spin off of a character in a team book, or even the way he was just introduced and it wasnt made a big deal of, but could be a story for some time, sure. You could get that sold for 4 issues.
    Julie isn't a lesbian so calling their relationship "lesbian" is inaccurate. And Rowell is going to use Julie in upcoming issues and explore their relationship so I don't know where your complaint is coming from other than a belief that Nico can't possibly be actually interested in Karolina.
    And frankly it shouldn't all have fallen on Rowell to explore the Julie/Karolina relationship. Gage never developed the Julie/Karolina relationship beyond "rainbow girls who like girls", but eiither one of those characters could have shown up in other books since Avengers Academy ended: White Tiger and Power Man were part of Ewing's Mighty and New Avengers, Nico was in A-Force. But the writers of those books just weren't interested in using Julie or Karolina or developing their relationship because there's very little there.

    I didn't call Xavin trans, I personally think they are more likely genderfluid. And I don't think it's fair to say Xavin "gave 0 fs" about their gender identity, there were several instances of Xavin changing their outward appearance and how they express their gender in order to make the others more comfortable. And I think that there's an interesting story there about a character changing themself to fit society's narrow views of gender roles because they care about making people comfortable more than feeling comfortable themself, of how a change in circumstances can change what gender makes them feel more comfortable in the moment.
    Karolina and Xavin were so young when they were together, and it was so long ago. Karolina is at a liberal arts college now instead of living in a literal cave. There are more resources available to educate them on these issues, so they can both articulate themselves better, they can have an informed discussion. A decent writer could make Xavin less problematic.

    I think it's important to remember that for better or worse Xavin is one of the most prominent examples of genderfluid characters in Marvel. The only other character I can think of who is more prominent is Loki (who is also a shapeshifter btw). Xavin has the potential to make an impact on a larger audience than most new characters. The Runaways are a popular franchise and Xavin may appear in future seasons of the live action show. And with the upcoming Captain Marvel movie, the Skrulls as a race are probably going to make a big return in a few years and Xavin could potentially be part of that inevitable event.
    Yes the execution with Xavin has been problematic, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't try to address those issues and mitigate them.

    And I don't think its fair to say you can't use both Xavin and a proper trans character, as if you can only have one or the other. That just sounds like tokenism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    Eh, I'm not so sure about that. I mean, there was nothing naturally genetic about Wanda's pregnancy in the first place. She wasn't inseminated in any way science could possibly explain, so I think it's a stretch to try to apply it to Billy and Tommy as well, specially when there's reincarnation involved. Magic and reality warping are all the explanation you need as to why Billy and Tommy look the way they do. Later writers could always retcon their origin to try and make sense of the genetic argument, I guess, but as their origin stands right now, I don't really buy it.
    So when choosing to reincarnate her kids Wanda just warped these two random kids to make them look identical to each other. And gave them powers similar to her brother's and her own. And she made it so these powers wouldn't manifest until puberty like a mutant. But she wasn't tinkering with genetics at all? That just seems complicated.

    Quote Originally Posted by NexusTenebrare View Post
    That's not technically correct. Whatever their origins, they could still be mutants. Mutants don't need to be born from mutant parents. It's just more likely.
    So whatever their connection to Wanda (who I'm pretty sure is officially no longer a mutant) , unless Marvel specifically states otherwise, Billy and Tommy could be mutants.
    You're right, Mutants don't need to be born from Mutant parents. But if their parent is superpowered and not a Mutant, and they inherit those powers exactly then they probably aren't a Mutant.

    Like in MC2, Mayday Parker inherited Spider powers but was not an X-gene mutant. Same with her RYV counterpart Annie.
    Hulk's kids Skaar and Lyra weren't mutants.
    Spider-Woman's son Gerry, has her spider powers but afaik isn't a mutant.

    So it's more likely that if Wiccan and Speed are somehow genetically related to Wanda, they would have her High Evolutionary altered genetics and not an X-gene.

  6. #11931
    Amazing Member Journey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beetle View Post
    So it's more likely that if Wiccan and Speed are somehow genetically related to Wanda, they would have her High Evolutionary altered genetics and not an X-gene.
    I still think Wanda and Pietro's powers being due to some science experiment is complete Bull!! I mean Pietro's sure it's just superspeed so why not. But Wanda's!! Bitch Please Marvel, Bitch Please!!! Her powers just seem way to powerful for that. Marvel could have just made it completely magic related and I would have bought that. But nope they chose the Science Project trope. -_- No just No!!!

    Which is why I believe Billy and Tommy's powers are either mutant or demonic related. I mean Billy literally becomes a god!!

    Honestly though thinking about the twins and their origin is always just one giant ass headache. I wish Marvel would just give a straight answer on the subject.

    Speaking of the twins does anyone else think we'll get them in Infinity War? I mean their like the only 2 Young Avengers who aren't around in the MCU. Cassie is there, Kate and Eli are definitely out there, Teddy is probably around somewhere too. I mean this is like the perfect time to set the grounds for a YA Movie.
    Last edited by Journey; 02-13-2018 at 05:33 PM.

  7. #11932
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beetle View Post




    You're right, Mutants don't need to be born from Mutant parents. But if their parent is superpowered and not a Mutant, and they inherit those powers exactly then they probably aren't a Mutant.

    Like in MC2, Mayday Parker inherited Spider powers but was not an X-gene mutant. Same with her RYV counterpart Annie.
    Hulk's kids Skaar and Lyra weren't mutants.
    Spider-Woman's son Gerry, has her spider powers but afaik isn't a mutant.

    So it's more likely that if Wiccan and Speed are somehow genetically related to Wanda, they would have her High Evolutionary altered genetics and not an X-gene.
    Uh Franklin Richards says Hello
    A.K.A S.K.I.D.

  8. #11933
    Mighty Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beetle View Post
    So when choosing to reincarnate her kids Wanda just warped these two random kids to make them look identical to each other. And gave them powers similar to her brother's and her own. And she made it so these powers wouldn't manifest until puberty like a mutant. But she wasn't tinkering with genetics at all? That just seems complicated.
    The woman was impregnated by shards of a demon's soul. It was a complicated story from the get go.

    As for the powers' manifestation, we don't know if that was a rule. We never saw when or how Tommy's powers manifested for the first time, so we don't know if it happened just like with Billy. We don't even know if Billy's powers were triggered by puberty itself or something else. Remember how he interacted with Wanda for the first time ever shortly before his powers manifested? For all we know, THAT could've been a trigger, given their spiritual connection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    I still think Wanda and Pietro's powers being due to some science experiment is complete Bull!! I mean Pietro's sure it's just superspeed so why not. But Wanda's!! Bitch Please Marvel, Bitch Please!!! Her powers just seem way to powerful for that. Marvel could have just made it completely magic related and I would have bought that. But nope they chose the Science Project trope. -_- No just No!!!

    Which is why I believe Billy and Tommy's powers are either mutant or demonic related. I mean Billy literally becomes a god!!

    Honestly though thinking about the twins and their origin is always just one giant ass headache. I wish Marvel would just give a straight answer on the subject.

    Speaking of the twins does anyone else think we'll get them in Infinity War? I mean their like the only 2 Young Avengers who aren't around in the MCU. Cassie is there, Kate and Eli are definitely out there, Teddy is probably around somewhere too. I mean this is like the perfect time to set the grounds for a YA Movie.
    Magic is still a part of Wanda's origin. Chthon's connection to her wasn't retconned. And her solo book actually added MORE magic things to her origin.

    As for the MCU, I think it's possible we might get something that resembles the baby twins story from the comics, yes. The relationship between Wanda and Vision, the ''humanization'' of Viz, the casting for the baby twins, the fact that we know the reality stone plays a part in the movie, the fact that it looks like the Russos might have borrowed ideas from Avengers Disassembled for the movies.... all of that, IMO, makes it very possible that we might get an adaption of that, as different from the comics as it may be. IF that happens, though, I don't think we're gonna see Billy Kaplan and Tommy Shepherd right away, but just the original babies, who might suffer a tragic end, and THAT is what will leave the door open to Wiccan and Speed in the future.
    Last edited by Drops Of Venus; 02-13-2018 at 08:45 PM.

  9. #11934
    Fantastic Member Beetle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Uh Franklin Richards says Hello
    Franklin doesn't have his parents' powers. He has a completely different powerset distinct from either parent, hence a mutation. And they've explicitly said he has an X-gene.
    That hasn't been confirmed for Wiccan and Speed either way.

  10. #11935
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beetle View Post
    Franklin doesn't have his parents' powers. He has a completely different powerset distinct from either parent, hence a mutation. And they've explicitly said he has an X-gene.
    That hasn't been confirmed for Wiccan and Speed either way.
    I see what you're saying I read as superpowered flatscans can't have Mutant children
    A.K.A S.K.I.D.

  11. #11936
    Extraordinary Member Fokken's Avatar
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    I would looooooooove to see a story with Billy and Tommy developing a stronger connection, and giving readers an exploration of Tommy's past. We've gotten Billy's. We need Tommy's.
    "Um, blah, blah, blah. And, Girl Power. Feminism, d'you know what I mean?"

  12. #11937
    Extraordinary Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    I feel like at this point this has become too much of a YA thread lol.

  13. #11938
    Astonishing Member legion_quest's Avatar
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    Don't know if this was mentioned, but as well as Wiccan and Hulkling returning to Lego form in Marvel Superheroes 2, Koi Boy is in the game, and plays a decent sized role in two side missions (alongside Chipmunk Hunk, of course)
    I will raise my throne above the Stars of God

  14. #11939
    Astonishing Member MasterOfMagnetism's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by legion_quest View Post
    Don't know if this was mentioned, but as well as Wiccan and Hulkling returning to Lego form in Marvel Superheroes 2, Koi Boy is in the game, and plays a decent sized role in two side missions (alongside Chipmunk Hunk, of course)
    I'm honestly surprised to hear that a trans character is in a Marvel video-game, even if it is a really obscure character in a LEGO game, that's nice.

  15. #11940
    Northern Lights Beaubier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beetle View Post
    Whether Wiccan and Speed are mutants or not depends on what their origin actually is and whether they are actually genetically related to Wanda.

    At the moment I believe the explanation is that they are the souls of Wanda and Vision's twins, sent back in time and born to regular humans. But that doesn't explain why Billy and Tommy are identical to each other or why Magneto seemed to believe they shared a physical resemblance to a younger Wanda and Pietro. There has to be a genetic component to their relationship to Wanda.
    And if there is a genetic component, say Wanda's DNA overrode the genetics of the Kaplans and Shepherds when their souls were reincarnated there, then their mutant status would depend on if Wanda and Pietro have the X-gene or not (which is up in the air at best)

    Personally I think Wanda unwittingly created Billy and Tommy at the height of her power, retrieved their souls from wherever they were, altered memories and gave them the normal lives and families she never could. And if that's the case then she would have created them when she thought she was a mutant so she could have made them with the X-gene.



    The way Xavin has been portrayed may be problematic but ignoring the character and sweeping them under the rug doesn't fix that.
    Xavin initially took a female form for Karolina's sake, but they learned something about themself in the process. Xavin enjoyed being a woman with Karolina, and they may not have discovered that part of themself without her. It's messy and it's not the ideal portrayal of a genderqueer character. But there's potential there for an interesting story analogous to someone needing an outside push to start exploring their gender identity.

    And frankly I'm not crazy about Julie and Karolina's relationship since we've been told it's a good relationship more than shown. It feels very shallow. They've held hands and kissed while flying a few times, wow.

    Like I said, I want Xavin’s story to be resolved. Xavin should be rescued. But I really don’t want to see Xavin and Karolina back together. Never liked how Karolina’s partner casually turns into a man while they’re together and the other problematic issues that surround Xavin’s character.

    Besides, Karolina has moved on. I’m sure she still cares about Xavin but I doubt it’s enough to drop Julie over.

    Julie and Karolina have rarely shown up in comics since they got together so we haven’t gotten to see their relationship. But that’s coming soon. And frankly I think it has a lot more potential than what we’ve already seen between Karolina and Xavin.

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