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  1. #3571
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I wish we could've seen what Johns' books (Flash, Aquaman, and Justice League) would've looked like if not for the reboot.

    GL was already pretty much unchanged.

  2. #3572
    Astonishing Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    It might have been less bad if not for the New 52
    Flashpoint itself is actually a solid read. There really isn't anything bad about it, IMO. It's the editorially induced aftermath it had that was was bad in many ways.

    If you skip that double page spread spread with Pandora talking to Barry and try to ignore Bruce and Barry wearing different costumes on the last page, you can enjoy it as the self contained story Johns probably intended it to be.

  3. #3573
    Heir of Batman adrikito's Avatar
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    Despite I like the TT, I am agree with the people who says..

    Characters like Starfire or Raven should improve(continue with another serie, or make them members of the Titans for example) and make the Teen Titans for a new generation of heroes.
    Last edited by adrikito; 08-06-2017 at 11:49 AM.

  4. #3574
    Three Legged Member married guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Green Arrow bores the crap out of me too.
    Green Arrow was a great book.
    There have been some damn fine runs - The Mike Grell Ollie & Dinah, then Chuck Dixon with Connor Hawke, Kevin Smith, Brad Meltzer and even Winick's run was good value.
    Unfortunately, since then it's been pretty much unreadable. (The Year One mini series the exception)
    "My name is Wally West. I'm the fastest man alive!"
    If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. No point being a damn fool about it. - W C Fields

  5. #3575
    Incredible Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    I would be okay if the Justice Society of America was DC's premier team book rather than the usual Justice League of America, because to me, the JSA was far more interesting; It has more of a sense of legacy than the JLA, and personally the Society seemed to me to be a lot more dynamic than the League, whom I've always felt were a little cookie cutter bland. I find Jay Garrick and Alan Scott to be much more interesting and cooler characters than Barry Allen, Wally West, Bart Allen, Hal Jordan, Guy Gardener, Jon Stewart, or Kyle Rayner, and I think it would be fascinating if they were the main and most promoted Flashes and Green Lanterns. You might say that the JSA being the main DC comics super-team would be problematic because the Trinity wouldn't be on the team, they would be on the Justice League, but I don't think that would be a problem because you could simply have Wonder Woman as a member of the team, as she was in the Golden Age, and Batman and Superman were honorary members of the group during the Society's heyday, so they could easily transition.

  6. #3576
    Astonishing Member batnbreakfast's Avatar
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    Default Now that the hype has died down and new readers aren't the target anymore

    can I please get a good Suicide Squad comic, seriously? Over the weekend I finished the 1st two Rebirth trades and JL vs SS. Josh Williams is ok to good but the story feels editorial driven. Rob and Jim just plain suck. Where are the character moments? How the f**k did Cap Boomerang come back? Harley and Croc need to go asap. Waller so far has been alright with me.

  7. #3577
    Astonishing Member batnbreakfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by married guy View Post
    Green Arrow was a great book.
    There have been some damn fine runs - The Mike Grell Ollie & Dinah, then Chuck Dixon with Connor Hawke, Kevin Smith, Brad Meltzer and even Winick's run was good value.
    Unfortunately, since then it's been pretty much unreadable. (The Year One mini series the exception)
    I agree but not on Winick being better than Lemire.

  8. #3578
    Spectacular Member FlashFreak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by married guy View Post
    Green Arrow was a great book.
    There have been some damn fine runs - The Mike Grell Ollie & Dinah, then Chuck Dixon with Connor Hawke, Kevin Smith, Brad Meltzer and even Winick's run was good value.
    Unfortunately, since then it's been pretty much unreadable. (The Year One mini series the exception)
    Agree 1000 percent! I have not enjoyed reading Green Arrow since Green Arrow and Black Canary ended. Lemires run was decent but I think it's very overrated.

  9. #3579
    Spectacular Member FlashFreak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    I would be okay if the Justice Society of America was DC's premier team book rather than the usual Justice League of America, because to me, the JSA was far more interesting; It has more of a sense of legacy than the JLA, and personally the Society seemed to me to be a lot more dynamic than the League, whom I've always felt were a little cookie cutter bland. I find Jay Garrick and Alan Scott to be much more interesting and cooler characters than Barry Allen, Wally West, Bart Allen, Hal Jordan, Guy Gardener, Jon Stewart, or Kyle Rayner, and I think it would be fascinating if they were the main and most promoted Flashes and Green Lanterns. You might say that the JSA being the main DC comics super-team would be problematic because the Trinity wouldn't be on the team, they would be on the Justice League, but I don't think that would be a problem because you could simply have Wonder Woman as a member of the team, as she was in the Golden Age, and Batman and Superman were honorary members of the group during the Society's heyday, so they could easily transition.
    YES! I love the JSA and I think in general the characters are more interesting, they have a better team dynamic and in general most of their stories are a joy to read.

    JLA you never know what you are going to get. I am currently reading Grant Morrison's run on it from the 90s and I am enjoying it, but usually I find trying to read a JLA story more of a chore.
    Last edited by FlashFreak; 08-07-2017 at 05:40 AM.

  10. #3580
    Astonishing Member batnbreakfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashFreak View Post
    YES! I love the JSA and I think in general the characters are more interesting, they have a better team dynamic and in general most of their stories are a joy to read.

    JLA you never know what you are going to get. I am currently reading Grant Morrison's run on it from the 90s and I am enjoying it, but usually I find trying to read a JLA story more of a chore.
    What really holds Morrison's JL back is the art imho. I can't see past it. Now, the JSA artist on Morrison's JL... that would have been a book! Normally I buy for the writer and and as long as I don't dislike the art it doesn't matter for me (I'm Ok with ScottMcdaniel btw). Morrison's JL is the worst... maybe the coloring could have saved it for me but it sucks, too

  11. #3581
    Astonishing Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Even though I'm glad the show is coming back to give more representation to the wider DC universe, I don't think Young Justice is nearly as great as it could be. The awkward exposition heavy info dump dialogue and bland aesthetics* are it's major weaknesses. It comes up far short compared to other DC shows, and especially to Weisman's work on Gargoyles (epic) and Spectacular Spider-Man. Plus, the only Wonder Woman villain they chose to use is Devastation, so as far as that goes, the show is trash.

    *Sportsmaster is the epitome of this problem. Why take a fun, gimmicky villain like Sportsmaster and turn him into a bland, generic mercenary who has nothing sports related going on?

  12. #3582
    Incredible Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    Am the only one who didn't like Scott Snyder's Swamp Thing all that much? People always speak relatively highly of Scott Snyder's take on the character, and whenever fans rank all of the Swamp Thing runs it usually goes like:

    Alan Moore's Swamp Thing: Genius.
    Rick Veitch's Swamp Thing: Pretty good.
    Everyone else who wrote Swamp Thing between Rick Veitch and Scott Synder's runs: ranges from mixed to absolutely terrible.
    Scott Synder's Swamp Thing: The best Swamp Thing writer since Alan Moore, not as good as him, but still fantastic.

    Personally, I think Scott Snyder's Swamp Thing is mediocre to a tee. Granted, most of my problems with his Swamp Thing have to do with the notion of the New Fifty Two in general, and aren't specific to his run individually, but to the whole DC line as a time; problems that wouldn't possibly bother a person who isn't a fan of the Swamp Thing character but there are plenty of things in N52 Swamp Thing that I take issue with that aren't New Fifty Two related.

    The first issue actually started out very well, the insertion of superheroes, (Who were absent for the most part in Swampie's Vertigo days), into the world of Swamp Thing, went very well, and felt almost natural. Also it alluded to a possible reason for why Alec Holland became a scientist, his father being a florist, that also interweaves with the horror presented in the book.

    Though as the series continues, more problems arise. When Snyder introduces Abby Holland into his run, he erases nearly everything that makes her a unique and likable character, stripping her down to just a generic, motorcycle riding bad-ass.

    After reintroducing Abby, Snyder then very sloppily reveals that Abigail Holland had a evil brother, whom is very in-tune with the Rot, and is allergic to chlorophyll, so he is basically allergic to air, so he has to be contained in this plastic box. While, the concept of him being allergic to air because of the Rot, is interesting, once he turns more villainous as the story progressing, he instantly turned into a bland, forgettable antagonist. He is a completely useless character, I have no doubt that if he didn't exist, the whole Rot story-arc would be exactly the same. He is essentially just a place holder villain, until eventually expiring when Sethe and Anton Arcane become antagonists.

    Abigial being retconed to have a brother, also points out one of Scott Snyder's many flaws as a writer, ever so apparent in his Swamp Thing run, his over-reliance on retcons to move the plot along. He does this to a pathetically horrifying degree. It's a very "hack" thing to do.
    He retcons Abigail Holland to be connected with the Rot.
    He retcons that Anton Arcane was the one who murdered Alec Holland.
    He retcons that The Green were planning to chose Alec Holland as the avatar for the Green.
    He retcons that Alec Holland went to Anton Arcane's home country and met Abigail.
    The list goes on and on and on. A few of these retcons work, but considering the quantity of rectcons inserted in Synder's run, no matter how bold and thought provoking some of these changes to Swamp Thing's past might be, in the end, it's hard to look how lazy and repetitive it is.

    Added on top of all of the issues the first couple of story arcs faced above, the first storyline was really dragged out to shit. I know the whole premise of The Rot vs The Green is very epic and such, so it's sort of warranted that that whole arc lasted for a good amount of time, but it didn't feel like there was a lot of story being told in the first 9-10 that make up the story-arc. With all of the plot that was covered in those 9 or so issues, it felt like a storyline that would last for 4-5 issues, but in actuallity, it lasted twice as many issues than warranted.

    This might be also be a problem, or not, depending on if Scott Snyder's Swamp Thing was intended to be an action-horror or -fantasy-action comic, but this is something I noticed, the horrific elements in Snyder's run are... frankly gruesome... disgusting... obviously gross. Yanick Paquette, and all of the fill in artists, do a great job detailing all of the massive hordes of walking mutated corpses and such, but, as frightful and stomach churning as some of the stuff found in Scott Snyder's Swamp Thing is, I almost never found it scary. I wondered why. I'm not one of those people that thinks comic medium can't properly convey the horror genre. Uzumaki, Alan Moore Swamp Thing, and Neil Gaiman's earlier issues of the Sandman, easily debunk this. The reason why Scott Synder's Swamp Thing isn't scary, is because despite, it featuring some pretty nasty, disturbing stuff, it doesn't have an atmosphere, tension, build up, or anything that would make New Fifty Two Swamp Thing a good horror comic.
    Last edited by Timothy Hunter; 09-07-2017 at 06:04 PM.

  13. #3583
    Daydreamer ChaosIncarnate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    Am the only one who didn't like Scott Snyder's Swamp Thing all that much? People always speak relatively highly of Scott Snyder's take on the character, and whenever fans rank all of the Swamp Thing runs it usually goes like:

    Alan Moore's Swamp Thing: Genius.
    Rick Veitch's Swamp Thing: Pretty good.
    Everyone else who wrote Swamp Thing between Rick Veitch and Scott Synder's runs: ranges from give-or-take to absolutely terrible.
    Scott Synder's Swamp Thing: The best Swamp Thing writer since Alan Moore, not as good as him, but still fantastic.

    Personally, I think Scott Snyder's Swamp Thing is mediocre to a tee. Granted, most of my problems with his Swamp Thing have to do with the notion of the New Fifty Two in general, and aren't specific to his run individually, but to the whole DC line as a time; problems that wouldn't possibly bother a person who isn't a fan of the Swamp Thing character but there are plenty of things in N52 Swamp Thing that I take issue with that aren't New Fifty Two related.

    The first issue actually started out very well, the insertion of superheroes, (Who were absent for the most part in Swampie's Vertigo days), into the world of Swamp Thing, went very well, and felt almost natural. Also it alluded to a possible reason for why Alec Holland became a scientist, his father being a florist, that also interweaves with the horror presented in the book.

    Though as the series continues, more problems arise. When Snyder introduces Abby Holland into his run, he erases nearly everything that makes her a unique and likable character, stripping her down to just a generic, motorcycle riding bad-ass.

    After reintroducing Abby, Snyder then very sloppily reveals that Abigail Holland had a evil brother, whom is very in-tune with the Rot, and is allergic to chlorophyll, so he is basically allergic to air, so he has to be contained in this plastic box. While, the concept of him being allergic to air because of the Rot, is interesting, once he turns more villainous as the story progressing, he instantly turned into a bland, forgettable antagonist. He is a completely useless character, I have no doubt that if he didn't exist, the whole Rot story-arc would be exactly the same. He is essentially just a place holder villain, until eventually expiring when Sethe and Anton Arcane become antagonists.

    Abigial being retconed to have a brother, also points out one of Scott Snyder's many flaws as a writer, ever so apparent in his Swamp Thing run, his over-reliance on retcons to move the plot along. He does this to a pathetically horrifying degree. It's a very "hack" thing to do.
    He retcons Abigail Holland to be connected with the Rot.
    He retcons that Anton Arcane was the one who murdered Alec Holland.
    He retcons that The Green were planning to chose Alec Holland as the avatar for the Green.
    He retcons that Alec Holland went to Anton Arcane's home country and met Abigail.
    The list goes on and on and on. A few of these retcons work, but considering the quantity of rectcons inserted in Synder's run, no matter how bold and thought provoking some of these changes to Swamp Thing's past might be, in the end, it's hard to look how lazy and repetitive it is.

    Added on top of all of the issues the first couple of story arcs faced above, the first storyline was really dragged out to shit. I know the whole premise of The Rot vs The Green is very epic and such, so it's sort of warranted that that whole arc lasted for a good amount of time, but it didn't feel like there was a lot of story being told in the first 9-10 that make up the story-arc. With all of the plot that was covered in those 9 or so issues, it felt like a storyline that would last for 4-5 issues, but in actuallity, it lasted twice as many issues than warranted.

    This might be also be a problem, or not, depending on if Scott Snyder's Swamp Thing was intended to be an action-horror or -fantasy-action comic, but this is something I noticed, the horrific elements in Snyder's run are... frankly gruesome... disgusting... obviously gross. Yanick Paquette, and all of the fill in artists, do a great job detailing all of the massive hordes of walking mutated corpses and such, but, as frightful and stomach churning as some of the stuff found in Scott Snyder's Swamp Thing is, I almost never found it scary. I wondered why. I'm not one of those people that thinks comic medium can't properly convey the horror genre. Uzumaki, Alan Moore Swamp Thing, and Neil Gaiman's earlier issues of the Sandman, easily debunk this. The reason why Scott Synder's Swamp Thing isn't scary, is because despite, it featuring some pretty nasty, disturbing stuff, it doesn't have an atmosphere, tension, build up, or anything that would make New Fifty Two Swamp Thing a good horror comic.
    Speaking as someone who hasn't read any other Swamp Thing comics, I was enjoying Scott Snyder's run until around after Volume 2. It started off as a very dark, disturbing, and entertaining series, before it began to bore me. I didn't like how Snyders run ended with a crossover either. The art was fantastic for the entire series, at least.

  14. #3584
    Incredible Member Darkseid Is's Avatar
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    I agree. I got bored as well by the end. Felt a little out of place that the Teen Titans and Superman and stuff popped in towards the end. Would have preferred if Animal Man and Swamp Thing were in their own little bubble of the universe.

  15. #3585
    Astonishing Member dancj's Avatar
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    I've only read the first TPB of Snyder, but it seemed like "Alan Moore's greatest hits".

    Oh and Mark Millar's excellent run comes in-between Moore and Veitch.

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