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  1. #4111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkseid Is View Post
    If Batman and Superman fight (I know it's been done to death) it's not about Superman being more powerful than batman, it's about the human overcoming odds to defeat the god. When it works (pretty much only Dark Knight Returns) the regular man finding something in himself to be a hero when he should lose. I mean this is shit that goes back to the Odyssey.
    Well after the 100th time of why the regular man is so special at the cost of the god itís way overdue for a story where the regular man gets owned by the god, and for that god to be morally right for doing so.

  2. #4112
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    As much as I did dislike the whole "Max Lord tricks superman into seeing his enemies"... There was something awesome about seeing Batman getting his BUTT kicked HARD by a Superman not holding back.



  3. #4113
    Spectacular Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    My controversial opinion is that it did NOT work in DKR. I always considered it rather pathetic that 1) Bruce is actively trying to kick the crap out of someone who is asking him to stand down and is only concerned about the Health of Bruce. and 2) Clark was still active when Bruce's heart attack pill kicked in...

    So no... I don't consider that a human beating a god.. or man's ability to win amazing odds... Bruce was just a jerk and still 'lost'.

    Hush was a bit closer... but Superman was mind controlled at the time.
    Yeah, this. He had Ollie and Carrie helping and all he did was have a good pace for about three pages, then have a heart attack and "die." Meanwhile, Clark spent the whole thing asking him as a friend to stand down and was recently nuked. Everything went Batman's way and Clark was simply trying to be an adult and resolve things without violence or Bruce putting himself in an early grave.

    The whole fight, once you really look at it without fanboy bias, is an adult trying to reason with an unruly child, and I don't even like Superman in DKR.

  4. #4114
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    As mich as I like the DCEU I don’t want the multiple Joker/Harley Quinn movies to happen because it would’ve take much for them to dump everything that isn’t tied to Gotham.

  5. #4115
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    My controversial opinion is that it did NOT work in DKR. I always considered it rather pathetic that 1) Bruce is actively trying to kick the crap out of someone who is asking him to stand down and is only concerned about the Health of Bruce. and 2) Clark was still active when Bruce's heart attack pill kicked in...

    So no... I don't consider that a human beating a god.. or man's ability to win amazing odds... Bruce was just a jerk and still 'lost'.

    Hush was a bit closer... but Superman was mind controlled at the time.
    To me that's kinda why the "fight" worked. Clark wasn't fighting back and wasn't really hurt until the synthetic kryptonite. Bruce got a couple of shots then pulled the heart attack trick.

    I find other comics where Bruce and Clark go toe to toe because Bats has a Kryptonite ring or something I find bothersome.

  6. #4116
    Astonishing Member dancj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    To me that's kinda why the "fight" worked. Clark wasn't fighting back and wasn't really hurt until the synthetic kryptonite. Bruce got a couple of shots then pulled the heart attack trick.

    I find other comics where Bruce and Clark go toe to toe because Bats has a Kryptonite ring or something I find bothersome.
    Yeah, I agree. I love that fight, but no sensible reading of it should bring you to the conclusion that "Batman can beat Superman". More, that "Batman with help from friends can momentarily beat a massively weakened Superman who is more concerned with Bruce's health than winning any fight".

    I still count it as a win, but with a whole pile of caveats.

  7. #4117
    Mighty Member Korath's Avatar
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    I think it's better to give a chance to fully new characters once in a while, like the NAOH books are currently doing than just re-use older, less known characters all the time. Well it is quite unsure, some of those characters/teams could have a good enough impact to become a staple, at least in a niche way.

    Those "old lessers" should be given new lease in more popular characters/teams to reintroduce them and then be pushed with them. They should also be tweaked if need be to make them more relevant, without their fans losing it immediately.

  8. #4118
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    I'm sympathetic toward both the companies and the creators.

    The increasing value of DC and Marvel is in owning their content--this is why they are being bought by media giants, so they can have access to a load of content for their streaming services.

    Yet, if you're a creator, you don't want to end up as the next Joe Shuster or Bill Finger. And so creators try not to give away their best ideas to DC and Marvel--because they want to reap the rewards for themselves. But even when they work on a DC owned character like Batman, creators can't help but create minor characters that end up as cash cows like Harley Quinn.

    It's safer for both DC and the creators if they stick to already existing characters. When a writer or artist comes up with a new supporting character--it's impossible to tell if that character is going to be a Harley Quinn or a Monarch of Menace. If DC owns the character outright, like the Joker, then there's no problem. And the creator knows that it's just work-for-hire and there's no chance of ever getting creative rights to the Joker.

  9. #4119
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    If you dislike DKR and the portrayal of Batman in it then you legit might not like Batman imo or at least dislike Batman on some level

    Harley Quinn is treated like the red headed step child by DC for a character that is far and away their most popular female hero/villain. I hate to bring up the comparison but deadpool is treated a lot better by Marvel

    Teen Titans/Titans is probably DC's 2nd top IP after JL. they have had and continue to have a number very popular animated series( a longer run than the Justice League has ever gotten), a animated feature film, and now their own live action TV show
    Yet they never seem to want to fix the mess that is the comics by either sparring some top talent on the books or let alone focusing on the nostalgic members.
    Its all no rhyme or reason while the rest of the media properties get bigger and bigger.

  10. #4120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    If you dislike DKR and the portrayal of Batman in it then you legit might not like Batman imo or at least dislike Batman on some level

    Harley Quinn is treated like the red headed step child by DC for a character that is far and away their most popular female hero/villain. I hate to bring up the comparison but deadpool is treated a lot better by Marvel

    Teen Titans/Titans is probably DC's 2nd top IP after JL. they have had and continue to have a number very popular animated series( a longer run than the Justice League has ever gotten), a animated feature film, and now their own live action TV show
    Yet they never seem to want to fix the mess that is the comics by either sparring some top talent on the books or let alone focusing on the nostalgic members.
    Its all no rhyme or reason while the rest of the media properties get bigger and bigger.
    The mess with the TT/Titans is probably allowed to continue by DC because they don't want to address some of the sketchier stuff that happened within the franchise.

  11. #4121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    If you dislike DKR and the portrayal of Batman in it then you legit might not like Batman imo or at least dislike Batman on some level

    Harley Quinn is treated like the red headed step child by DC for a character that is far and away their most popular female hero/villain. I hate to bring up the comparison but deadpool is treated a lot better by Marvel

    Teen Titans/Titans is probably DC's 2nd top IP after JL. they have had and continue to have a number very popular animated series( a longer run than the Justice League has ever gotten), a animated feature film, and now their own live action TV show
    Yet they never seem to want to fix the mess that is the comics by either sparring some top talent on the books or let alone focusing on the nostalgic members.
    Its all no rhyme or reason while the rest of the media properties get bigger and bigger.
    Harley has been in the spotlight since the New 52 launch, getting her own solo ongoing, guesting or starring in several comics and being used in multiple Batman media. If you think Harley is treated like the red headed step child I wonder what you think a character that DC actually likes is treated like.

  12. #4122
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    The Government should have allowed the Comcast & Time Warner merger to go through
    The J-man

    I post via my phone a lot, therefore I make the occasional grammatical error. Not an excuse just forewarning you. Feel free to call me out I won't mind.

  13. #4123
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    To me Frank Miller's BATMAN: THE DARK KNIGHT (the original name of the 4 issue prestige format series) read like a MAD magazine parody treatment. And I mean that with love. It was common enough to do a satiric spoof that showed the hero years in the future--the classic "Strarchie," for example from MAD No. 12 (June 1954). And that's how I received Miller's goofy imaginary tale, with its odd takes on classic Batman characters, and a bit of the campy TV show thrown into the mix.

    It wasn't really true to the comic book version of Batman at the time. And maybe that's why it grabbed so much attention. It was an off-kilter treatment of the Gotham Manhunter and a fun read on that level.

    The artistic approach is even a tip-off, as it's a bit cartoony and framed in such a way as to suggest the TV show. Plus, Miller shortened the ears and did Batman in a style that recalled the 1950s, rather than the Neal Adams inspired Batman of the era.

    Even when Denny O'Neil took over as editor (Dick Giordano was the actual editor who commissioned Miller's DARK KNIGHT) and tried to institute changes--what with Year One and all--this future "What If" story never became canon.

    It's an oddball comic that continues to punch above its weight, but it's hardly the definitive Batman. And it never was meant to be.

  14. #4124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    Harley Quinn is treated like the red headed step child by DC for a character that is far and away their most popular female hero/villain. I hate to bring up the comparison but deadpool is treated a lot better by Marvel
    First off, Harley still ain't more popular than Diana.

    Second, how exactly is a character with a bi-monthly solo and frequent minis and one-shots, whose also the leader of a (until recently) bi-monthly team book, makes incredibly frequent and prominent appearances in outside media, including a leading role in a DCEU film with possibly a second on the way, and an almost literal infinite amount of merchandise treated like a red headed step child?

    Know what "Controversial Opinion' this reminds me of? Nightwing fans should be more appreciative of what they've got. Most of their more specific complaints about his situation are perfectly valid, but when I see people angry because he doesn't have the same level of in-universe reverence as the main JL members and talking about how DC hates the character and are constantly mistreating him, it just comes off to me as spitting in the face of the good fortune they have as to have a favorite character who will always have a solo book (one which until recently has been bi-monthly) and will usually be a part of at least one other book, not lacking in appearances elsewhere either.

  15. #4125
    Fantastic Member Armor of God's Avatar
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    Tom King is seriously overrated and a hit & miss writer.

    James Tynion only has a job because of Snyder.

    Joker is overused, overwanked and overrated.

    Harley for all her success, popularity, books etc remains a very weak and shallow character who coasts by on her relationship with Joker and newfound sex appeal status.

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