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  1. #4756
    Astonishing Member Raffi Ol D'Arcy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Hang on. What happened to 6 days being literally 6 days, 144 human hours.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    In the end, it doesn't matter if it was literally six days, six thousand or six million. What matters is that we place our trust, hope and belief in the resurrection of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.

    All of that other stuff we can quibble about, but the important thing is whether you believe or not.
    I think it absolutely does matter. I believe in 6 literal days. Why people believe in anything but 6 literal days usually has nothing whatsoever to do with the Bible. Here's a very good piece written on this matter: the-necessity-for-believing-in-six-literal-days/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffi Ol D'Arcy View Post
    I think it absolutely does matter. I believe in 6 literal days. Why people believe in anything but 6 literal days usually has nothing whatsoever to do with the Bible. Here's a very good piece written on this matter: the-necessity-for-believing-in-six-literal-days/
    Does it really matter though? What is more important, that you believe it was literally six days that he created the universe or that Jesus died for your sins, was resurrected after three days, ascended to Heaven and now sits at the right hand of the Father?
    “I will fight. Forever. For everyone, whether they know it or not. Whether they are watching or not. I will always fight.”---Daredevil

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  3. #4758
    Mighty Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I think that's even trickier, but still falls under the idea of not just one doctrine that has been widely accepted, but a range of doctrine that is considered acceptable. To drag another tangent in, both Calvinism and Arminianism are considered orthodox, but are definitely not the same thing. As a contrast, Augustinianism and Pelagianism are an example of orthodoxy vs. heresy, because Pelagianism does not fit into the range of orthodoxy.
    That's a great example. The range of Christian doctrine that's considered acceptable is a lot broader than people imagine.

    If by 'orthodox' one means only 'right doctrine,' then it's a redundant term. And if we mean only 'the majority position,' it changes too often to be of any use.

  4. #4759
    Mighty Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old School Ollie 1962 View Post
    ‘assigning her honor as to a weaker vessel,’
    Anyone who genuinely believes women are the weaker sex has not met many women.

  5. #4760
    Astonishing Member Old School Ollie 1962's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffi Ol D'Arcy View Post
    I think it absolutely does matter. I believe in 6 literal days. Why people believe in anything but 6 literal days usually has nothing whatsoever to do with the Bible. Here's a very good piece written on this matter: the-necessity-for-believing-in-six-literal-days/
    I'm not going to try to change your opinion on something you've made up your mind about in advance. All I can do is offer another perspective.

    The planet’s coming into existence is recounted in the Bible with the simple statement: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” (Ge 1:1) Just how long ago the starry heavens and the earth were created is not stated in the Bible. Therefore, there is no basis for Bible scholars to take issue with scientific calculations of the age of the planet. Scientists estimate the age of some rocks as being three and a half billion years, and the earth itself as being about four to four and a half billion or more years.

    As to time, the Scriptures are more definite about the six creative days of the Genesis account. These days have to do, not with the creation of earth’s matter or material, but with the arranging and preparing of it for man’s habitation.

    Was all physical creation accomplished in just six days sometime within the past 6,000 to 10,000 years?

    The facts disagree with such a conclusion: (1) Light from the Andromeda nebula can be seen on a clear night in the northern hemisphere. It takes about 2,000,000 years for that light to reach the earth, indicating that the universe must be at least millions of years old. (2) End products of radioactive decay in rocks in the earth testify that some rock formations have been undisturbed for billions of years.

    Genesis 1:3-31 is not discussing the original creation of matter or of the heavenly bodies. It describes the preparation of the already existing earth for human habitation. This included creation of the basic kinds of vegetation, marine life, flying creatures, land animals, and the first human pair. All of this is said to have been done within a period of six “days.” However, the Hebrew word translated “day” has a variety of meanings, including ‘a long time; the time covering an extraordinary event.’ (Old Testament Word Studies, Grand Rapids, Mich.; 1978, W. Wilson, p. 109) The term used allows for the thought that each “day” could have been thousands of years in length.

    Other cases where the word “day” is used in a flexible or figurative sense are: “the day of God’s creating Adam” (Ge 5:1), “the day of Jehovah” (Zep 1:7), the “day of fury” (Zep 1:15), “the day of salvation” (2Co 6:2), “the day of judgment” (2Pe 3:7), “the great day of God the Almighty” (Re 16:14), and others.


    Putting the Bible's use of the word "Day" in proper context and perspective:

    This flexible use of the word “day” to express units of time of varying length is clearly evident in the Genesis account of creation. Therein is set forth a week of six creative days followed by a seventh day of rest. The week assigned for observance by the Jews under the Law covenant given them by God was a miniature copy of that creative week. (Ex 20:8-11) In the Scriptural record the account of each of the six creative days concludes with the statement: “And there came to be evening and there came to be morning” a first, second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth day. (Ge 1:5, 8, 13, 19, 23, 31) The seventh day, however, does not have this ending, indicating that this period, during which God has been resting from his creative works toward the earth, continued on. At Hebrews 4:1-10 the apostle Paul indicated that God’s rest day was still continuing in his generation, and that was more than 4,000 years after that seventh-day rest period began. This makes it evident that each creative day, or work period, was at least thousands of years in length. As A Religious Encyclopædia (Vol. I, p. 613) observes: “The days of creation were creative days, stages in the process, but not days of twenty-four hours each.”—Edited by P. Schaff, 1894.

    The entire period of the six time units or creative “days” dedicated to the preparation of planet Earth is summed up in one all-embracing “day” at Genesis 2:4: “This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.”

    Man’s situation does not compare with that of the Creator, who does not reside within our solar system and who is not affected by its various cycles and orbits. Of God, who is from time indefinite to time indefinite, the psalmist says: “For a thousand years are in your eyes but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch during the night.” (Ps 90:2, 4) Correspondingly, the apostle Peter writes that “one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.” (2Pe 3:8) For man, a 1,000-year period represents some 365,242 individual time units of day and night, but to the Creator it can be just one unbroken time period in which he begins the carrying out of some purposeful activity and brings it on to its successful conclusion, much as a man begins a task in the morning and concludes it by the day’s end.

    Jehovah is the Originator of our universe in which time, space, motion, mass, and energy have all been proved to be inescapably interrelated. He controls them all according to his purpose, and in dealing with his creatures on earth he makes definite time appointments for his own actions toward them, right down to the “day and hour.” (Mt 24:36; Ga 4:4) He keeps such appointments with the utmost punctuality.

  6. #4761
    More eldritch than thou Venomous Mask's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    If by 'orthodox' one means only 'right doctrine,' then it's a redundant term. And if we mean only 'the majority position,' it changes too often to be of any use.
    The Eastern Orthodox Church would very much disagree with you. For over a thousand years, Orthodoxy referred to the beliefs and practices of the original Church, which has been preserved by the Eastern churches:

    "I should describe my known nature as tripartite, my interests consisting of three parallel and disassociated groups; a) love of the strange and the fantastic, b) love of abstract truth and scientific logic, c) love of the ancient and the permanent. Sundry combinations of these strains will probably account for my...odd tastes, and eccentricities."

  7. #4762
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venomous Mask View Post
    The Eastern Orthodox Church would very much disagree with you. For over a thousand years, Orthodoxy referred to the beliefs and practices of the original Church, which has been preserved by the Eastern churches:

    Well, yes. The same could be said of the word "catholic," which has a similar meaning.

    But that's not what we're talking about.
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  8. #4763

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Anyone who genuinely believes women are the weaker sex has not met many women.
    It would mean I'm the woman in my marriage.
    (except for opening lids of containers, stuck jars, bottles, only in this I seem to be stronger than her)

  9. #4764
    More eldritch than thou Venomous Mask's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Well, yes. The same could be said of the word "catholic," which has a similar meaning.

    But that's not what we're talking about.
    I just felt I needed to be put it out there. These terms sometimes get bandied around with little thought to the original meaning.
    "I should describe my known nature as tripartite, my interests consisting of three parallel and disassociated groups; a) love of the strange and the fantastic, b) love of abstract truth and scientific logic, c) love of the ancient and the permanent. Sundry combinations of these strains will probably account for my...odd tastes, and eccentricities."

  10. #4765
    Spectacular Member Psimitar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venomous Mask View Post
    I just felt I needed to be put it out there. These terms sometimes get bandied around with little thought to the original meaning.
    Again, I started this line of thought because my church is doing a Bible Class called "Against Heresy". Right out the gate, the teacher defines heresy as "wrong or false teaching" then goes on to define orthodoxy as "right or correct teaching". I challenged this definition of orthodoxy as I see orthodoxy as "accepted teaching" but not necessarily "correct teaching".

    It's easy to look at New Testament scripture such as the Pauline Epistles and and call it orthodoxy as we believe those Epistles are inspired by the Holy Spirit. But when you start looking at the writings of early Church fathers after the Apostolic period, writers such as Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Polycarp, Origen, and Augustine, then what is or isn't considered "orthodoxy" is more subjective to what is accepted by by the laity. It would be reasonable to say that the reason we have so many Christian denominations is because we have accepted and/or rejected various orthodoxies over the last two millennia.

  11. #4766
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venomous Mask View Post
    I just felt I needed to be put it out there. These terms sometimes get bandied around with little thought to the original meaning.
    If you read the discussion we were having, there was no bandying it about, and plenty of thought for its original meaning.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
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    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
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  12. #4767
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    “I will fight. Forever. For everyone, whether they know it or not. Whether they are watching or not. I will always fight.”---Daredevil

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  13. #4768
    Astonishing Member Raffi Ol D'Arcy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    Does it really matter though? What is more important, that you believe it was literally six days that he created the universe or that Jesus died for your sins, was resurrected after three days, ascended to Heaven and now sits at the right hand of the Father?
    It does matter for me and other Christians that are Creationists. I don't think using "or" is entirely appropriate here. It's not one or the other. In the article I linked, the author Ken Ham writes:

    "The majority of Christians in churches probably aren’t sure whether God really created everything in six literal days. Many believe it doesn’t matter whether it took six days or six million years. However, it is vital to believe in six literal days for many reasons. Foremost is that allowing these days to be long periods of time undermines the foundations of the message of the Cross.

    The idea of millions of years came from the belief that the fossil record was built up over a long time. As soon as people allow for millions of years, they allow for the fossil record to be millions of years old. This creates an insurmountable problem regarding the gospel. The fossil record consists of the death of billions of creatures. In fact, it is a record of death, disease, suffering, cruelty, and brutality. It is a very ugly record.

    The Bible is adamant though, that death, disease, and suffering came into the world as a result of sin. God instituted death and bloodshed because of sin so man could be redeemed. As soon as Christians allow for death, suffering, and disease before sin, then the whole foundations of the message of the Cross and the Atonement have been destroyed. The doctrine of original sin, then, is totally undermined.

    If there were death, disease, and suffering before Adam rebelled—then what did sin do to the world? What does Paul mean in Romans 8 when he says the whole of creation groans in pain because of the Curse? How can all things be restored in the future to no more death and suffering, unless the beginning was also free of death and suffering? The whole message of the gospel falls apart if one allows millions of years for the creation of the world.

    One of the major problems we all have (in fact, it is the same problem Adam and Eve had) is that we tend to start from outside God’s Word and then go to what God has written in the Bible (or—in Adam’s case—what God said directly to him) to try to interpret it on the basis of our own ideas. This is really the major reason why most people question the days of creation.

    We need to realize that the Bible is God’s Word. And as it is the inspired Word of the infinite Creator, God, then it must be self-authenticating and self-attesting. Thus, we should always start with what God’s Word says regardless of outside ideas. Only God’s Word is infallible.

    If we allow our children to accept the possibility that we can doubt the days of creation when the language speaks so plainly, then we are teaching them a particular approach to all of Scripture. Why shouldn’t they then start to doubt that Christ’s Virgin Birth really means a virgin birth? Why shouldn’t they start to doubt that the Resurrection really means resurrection?

    In fact, there are many theologians who doubt these very things, as they have come to disbelieve the plain words of Scripture written in the foundational Book of Genesis.


    Whovian, you seem to be a pretty nice guy who seems to be everywhere on the CBR forums If you can, take an extra moment to read the short but concise article by Ken Ham which I linked in my previous post.

  14. #4769
    Astonishing Member Raffi Ol D'Arcy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old School Ollie 1962 View Post
    I'm not going to try to change your opinion on something you've made up your mind about in advance. All I can do is offer another perspective.

    The planet’s coming into existence is recounted in the Bible with the simple statement: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” (Ge 1:1) Just how long ago the starry heavens and the earth were created is not stated in the Bible. Therefore, there is no basis for Bible scholars to take issue with scientific calculations of the age of the planet. Scientists estimate the age of some rocks as being three and a half billion years, and the earth itself as being about four to four and a half billion or more years.

    As to time, the Scriptures are more definite about the six creative days of the Genesis account. These days have to do, not with the creation of earth’s matter or material, but with the arranging and preparing of it for man’s habitation.

    Was all physical creation accomplished in just six days sometime within the past 6,000 to 10,000 years?

    The facts disagree with such a conclusion: (1) Light from the Andromeda nebula can be seen on a clear night in the northern hemisphere. It takes about 2,000,000 years for that light to reach the earth, indicating that the universe must be at least millions of years old. (2) End products of radioactive decay in rocks in the earth testify that some rock formations have been undisturbed for billions of years.

    Genesis 1:3-31 is not discussing the original creation of matter or of the heavenly bodies. It describes the preparation of the already existing earth for human habitation. This included creation of the basic kinds of vegetation, marine life, flying creatures, land animals, and the first human pair. All of this is said to have been done within a period of six “days.” However, the Hebrew word translated “day” has a variety of meanings, including ‘a long time; the time covering an extraordinary event.’ (Old Testament Word Studies, Grand Rapids, Mich.; 1978, W. Wilson, p. 109) The term used allows for the thought that each “day” could have been thousands of years in length.

    Other cases where the word “day” is used in a flexible or figurative sense are: “the day of God’s creating Adam” (Ge 5:1), “the day of Jehovah” (Zep 1:7), the “day of fury” (Zep 1:15), “the day of salvation” (2Co 6:2), “the day of judgment” (2Pe 3:7), “the great day of God the Almighty” (Re 16:14), and others.


    Putting the Bible's use of the word "Day" in proper context and perspective:

    This flexible use of the word “day” to express units of time of varying length is clearly evident in the Genesis account of creation. Therein is set forth a week of six creative days followed by a seventh day of rest. The week assigned for observance by the Jews under the Law covenant given them by God was a miniature copy of that creative week. (Ex 20:8-11) In the Scriptural record the account of each of the six creative days concludes with the statement: “And there came to be evening and there came to be morning” a first, second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth day. (Ge 1:5, 8, 13, 19, 23, 31) The seventh day, however, does not have this ending, indicating that this period, during which God has been resting from his creative works toward the earth, continued on. At Hebrews 4:1-10 the apostle Paul indicated that God’s rest day was still continuing in his generation, and that was more than 4,000 years after that seventh-day rest period began. This makes it evident that each creative day, or work period, was at least thousands of years in length. As A Religious Encyclopædia (Vol. I, p. 613) observes: “The days of creation were creative days, stages in the process, but not days of twenty-four hours each.”—Edited by P. Schaff, 1894.

    The entire period of the six time units or creative “days” dedicated to the preparation of planet Earth is summed up in one all-embracing “day” at Genesis 2:4: “This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.”

    Man’s situation does not compare with that of the Creator, who does not reside within our solar system and who is not affected by its various cycles and orbits. Of God, who is from time indefinite to time indefinite, the psalmist says: “For a thousand years are in your eyes but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch during the night.” (Ps 90:2, 4) Correspondingly, the apostle Peter writes that “one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.” (2Pe 3:8) For man, a 1,000-year period represents some 365,242 individual time units of day and night, but to the Creator it can be just one unbroken time period in which he begins the carrying out of some purposeful activity and brings it on to its successful conclusion, much as a man begins a task in the morning and concludes it by the day’s end.

    Jehovah is the Originator of our universe in which time, space, motion, mass, and energy have all been proved to be inescapably interrelated. He controls them all according to his purpose, and in dealing with his creatures on earth he makes definite time appointments for his own actions toward them, right down to the “day and hour.” (Mt 24:36; Ga 4:4) He keeps such appointments with the utmost punctuality.
    I used to think millions, billions of years, but with further study in particular of the scriptures, I came to the conviction of six literal days. If I may, I would also quote Ken Ham's article on the issue of what a day means:

    "The major reason why people doubt that the days of creation are 24-hour literal days usually has nothing to do with what the Bible says, but comes from outside influences. For example, many believe that because scientists have supposedly proved the earth to be billions of years old then the days of creation cannot be ordinary days.

    If people use Scripture to try to justify that the days of creation are long periods of time, they usually quote passages such as 2 Peter 3:8, “. . . one day is with the Lord as a thousand years . . ..” Because of this, they think the days could be a thousand years, or perhaps even millions of years. However, if you look at the rest of the verse, it says, “. . . and a thousand years as one day“. This cancels out their argument! The context of this passage concerns the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. This particular verse is telling people that with God, waiting a day is like waiting a thousand years, and waiting a thousand years is like waiting a day because God is outside of time—He is not limited by natural processes and time. This has absolutely nothing to do with defining the days of creation. Besides, the word “day” already exists and has been defined, which is why in 2 Peter it can be compared to a thousand years. There is no reference in this passage to the days of creation.

    The Hebrew word for day in Genesis chapter 1 is the word yom. It is important to understand that almost any word can have two or more meanings, depending on context. We need to understand the context of the usage of this word in Genesis chapter 1.1

    Respected Hebrew dictionaries, like the Brown, Driver, Briggs lexicon, give a number of meanings for the word yom depending upon context. One of the passages they give for yom‘s meaning an ordinary day happens to be Genesis chapter 1. The reason is obvious. Every time the word yom is used with a number, or with the phrase “evening and morning’, anywhere in the Old Testament, it always means an ordinary day. In Genesis chapter 1, for each of the six days of creation, the Hebrew word yom is used with a number and the phrase, “evening and morning’. There is no doubt that the writer is being emphatic that these are ordinary days.
    "

    Also, worth reading is The Days of Creation: A Semantic Approach

  15. #4770
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffi Ol D'Arcy View Post
    It does matter for me and other Christians that are Creationists. I don't think using "or" is entirely appropriate here. It's not one or the other. In the article I linked, the author Ken Ham writes:
    Hey Raffi, I think you may be missing my point. I'm not saying it isn't important. In fact, I agree with you. I do believe that God created everything literally in six days. I was born and raised in the Baptist church, so we are taught to take everything literal (unless it's specifically noted as not such). When I became an adult, I did my own research on it and read the scriptures over and over, and it only reinforced my opinion, which was derived from my upbringing.

    What I'm saying though, is that our faith doesn't rest on whether or not God created the universe in 6 days. Our faith, as Christians, is based on the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Everything is built on that. If we believe that God created the universe in 6 days, but don't believe in the resurrection, then our faith is baseless and dead.

    So, if a fellow Christian believes in Jesus Christ, that he was the Son of God, born of the Virgin Mary, was crucified for our sins, was raised after three days and ascended into Heaven where He sits on the right hand of the Father...BUT believes that God did not create the universe in 6 days does that mean they aren't Christians or our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ? Or does that mean they aren't saved? The answer is of course they are saved, because their faith rests in their belief in Christ, not that the creation of the universe was in 6 days. Therefore, it isn't important when it comes to being saved or not.
    “I will fight. Forever. For everyone, whether they know it or not. Whether they are watching or not. I will always fight.”---Daredevil

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    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.---John 3:16

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