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  1. #5716
    Mighty Member Starter Set's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    What he said is FACT. Christianity is the ONLY religion in the world where you don't have to work for your salvation
    So, you don't believe in hell then?

    We sure haven't read the same book apparently.
    Last edited by Starter Set; 02-13-2018 at 04:54 AM.

  2. #5717
    Fantastic Member Psimitar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter Set View Post
    So, you don't believe in hell then?

    We sure haven't read the same book apparently.
    You can't have salvation without God's judgment, otherwise what are we being saved from? Now as far as hell is concerned, we borrow more from Date and Milton than we get from the Bible. I've always viewed Biblical hell to simply be eternal separation from the presence of God.

    But regardless of hell, Christianity still teaches salvation through grace due to the blood sacrifice made by Jesus Christ. ANY other religion teaches salvation by works. Whether that be prayer in Islam, keeping Mosaic Law in Judiasm, or building up karma in Hindu, they are all things men do. Christianity is unique in that it teach that no work of man can bring forth salvation. Salvation was purchased for us.
    Last edited by Psimitar; 02-13-2018 at 06:10 AM.

  3. #5718
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psimitar View Post
    You can't have salvation without God's judgment, otherwise what are we being saved from?
    Ourselves--or as Paul would put it, 'our flesh.'

    From a universalist perspective, God's judgment is another manifestation of grace, albeit a more painful one (via the self-inflicted wound of resisting salvation).

    "It is hard for you to kick against the goads."

  4. #5719
    Chosen One Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter Set View Post
    So, you don't believe in hell then?

    We sure haven't read the same book apparently.
    No, he means Christians get to stay out of hell just by believing in Jesus. They don't have to physically take actions.

    Which is not actually what it says in the Bible, and is not true according to most branches of Christianity, just a few of the American ones.
    "One may be intelligent, and a Nazi. Then one is not decent. One may be decent and a Nazi. Then one is not intelligent. And one may be intelligent and decent. Then one is not a Nazi"
    - Gerhard Bronner

  5. #5720
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Salvation is by grace through faith, not by works so that no one can boast.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  6. #5721
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Actually, Islam teaches you can only get salvation by prayer.
    Nope. They require that you do more good than bad.
    Favorite Artists Right Now: Ivan Reis, Andrea Sorrentino, Stuart Immonen, Jason Fabok, Olivier Coipel, Nick Dragotta, Kim Jacinto, Patrick Gleason, Jorge Jimenez, Greg Capullo, Jerome Opena, Steve McNiven, Kev Walker, Steve Epting, Sean Murphy.

    "I am a mad man with a box!"--- The Doctor

    Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life. He that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die."--- John 11:25-26

  7. #5722
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Today's devotion:

    AN EVANGELIST’S HEART: JOY
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue.../devotions/13/
    Favorite Artists Right Now: Ivan Reis, Andrea Sorrentino, Stuart Immonen, Jason Fabok, Olivier Coipel, Nick Dragotta, Kim Jacinto, Patrick Gleason, Jorge Jimenez, Greg Capullo, Jerome Opena, Steve McNiven, Kev Walker, Steve Epting, Sean Murphy.

    "I am a mad man with a box!"--- The Doctor

    Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life. He that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die."--- John 11:25-26

  8. #5723
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    I like contemplating this paradox: "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you." (Philippians 2:12-13)

  9. #5724
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    I like contemplating this paradox: "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you." (Philippians 2:12-13)
    Here's the actual KJV:

    12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

    13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

    Basically, Paul is saying "Without me there to guide you, your salvation now depends on you own doing the right thing by the teachings you have heard from me and others of the faith, through God, who works in you.

    Also, whenever you see the words "Fear God" or the such, it usually means a healthy fear---a respect of God.
    Favorite Artists Right Now: Ivan Reis, Andrea Sorrentino, Stuart Immonen, Jason Fabok, Olivier Coipel, Nick Dragotta, Kim Jacinto, Patrick Gleason, Jorge Jimenez, Greg Capullo, Jerome Opena, Steve McNiven, Kev Walker, Steve Epting, Sean Murphy.

    "I am a mad man with a box!"--- The Doctor

    Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life. He that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die."--- John 11:25-26

  10. #5725
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    Nope. They require that you do more good than bad.
    No it doesn't.

    https://www.islamreligion.com/articl...-islam-part-1/

    Islam teaches us that salvation is attainable through the worship of God alone. A person must believe in God and follow His commandments. This is the same message taught by all the Prophets including Moses and Jesus. There is only One worthy of worship. One God, alone without partners, sons, or daughters. Salvation and thus eternal happiness can be achieved by sincere worship.
    It isn't that remarkable that only Christianity offers a way to how Christians view salvation. If you are to judge all religions through the filter of Christian salvation, of course they come up short. But guess what, Christianity comes up short through the filter of other religions.
    As I said, all religions are unique in their own way.
    What I am getting at is Christianity is what your personal faith tells you to follow. This is what you accept as true. That is fine.
    I have a problem when I start hearing how one religion is superior to another, or so different from any other that it is the only one that can be true. That way lies folly.
    Last edited by Kirby101; 02-13-2018 at 02:13 PM.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  11. #5726
    Postin' since Aug '05 Dalak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    No it doesn't.

    https://www.islamreligion.com/articl...-islam-part-1/



    It isn't that remarkable that only Christianity offers a way to how Christians view salvation. If you are to judge all religions through the filter of Christian salvation, of course they come up short. But guess what, Christianity comes up short through the filter of other religions.
    As I said, all religions are unique in their own way.
    What I am getting at is Christianity is what your personal faith tells you to follow. This is what you accept as true. That is fine.
    I have a problem when I start hearing how one religion is superior to another, or so different from any other that it is the only one that can be true. That way lies folly.
    I've always felt that the basics of nearly every religion are practically the same with differences in taboos thrown in almost as if to create conflict between them. That's why I have a problem with organized religion rather than the beliefs in and of themselves - I hate what horrifying things people can be convinced to do in the name of their faith by someone with more charisma than sense simply because they are taught to implicitly trust people with a certain title tacked onto their names.

  12. #5727
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    This is from the Qur'an:

    "To those who believe and do deeds of righteousness hath Allah promised forgiveness and a great reward," (Surah 5:9).

    "Then those whose balance (of good deeds) is heavy, they will be successful. But those whose balance is light, will be those who have lost their souls; in hell will they abide," (23:102-103).

    "And We set a just balance for the Day of Resurrection so that no soul is wronged in aught. Though it be of the weight of a grain of mustard seed, We bring it. And We suffice for reckoners," (21:47).

    "They are those who deny the Signs of their Lord and the fact of their having to meet Him (in the Hereafter): vain will be their works, nor shall We, on the Day of Judgment, give them any weight," (online Qur'an, 18:105).

    "And He answers those who believe and do good deeds, and gives them more out of His grace; and (as for) the unbelievers, they shall have a severe punishment," (42:26, online, trans. by M.H. Shakir).

    "O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and speak the right word, He will put your deeds into a right state for you, and forgive you your faults; and whoever obeys Allah and His Apostle, he indeed achieves a mighty success," (33:70-71, online, trans. by M.H. Shakir).

    ". . . But if ye obey Allah and his messenger, he will not belittle aught of your deeds: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful," (49:14).
    "If you obey GOD and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful," (49:14).

    Those verses describe good deeds as a way to salvation, not just faith.
    Favorite Artists Right Now: Ivan Reis, Andrea Sorrentino, Stuart Immonen, Jason Fabok, Olivier Coipel, Nick Dragotta, Kim Jacinto, Patrick Gleason, Jorge Jimenez, Greg Capullo, Jerome Opena, Steve McNiven, Kev Walker, Steve Epting, Sean Murphy.

    "I am a mad man with a box!"--- The Doctor

    Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life. He that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die."--- John 11:25-26

  13. #5728
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalak View Post
    I've always felt that the basics of nearly every religion are practically the same with differences
    This is completely false and is bordering on Omnism.
    Favorite Artists Right Now: Ivan Reis, Andrea Sorrentino, Stuart Immonen, Jason Fabok, Olivier Coipel, Nick Dragotta, Kim Jacinto, Patrick Gleason, Jorge Jimenez, Greg Capullo, Jerome Opena, Steve McNiven, Kev Walker, Steve Epting, Sean Murphy.

    "I am a mad man with a box!"--- The Doctor

    Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life. He that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die."--- John 11:25-26

  14. #5729
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    This is from the Qur'an:

    "To those who believe and do deeds of righteousness hath Allah promised forgiveness and a great reward," (Surah 5:9).

    "Then those whose balance (of good deeds) is heavy, they will be successful. But those whose balance is light, will be those who have lost their souls; in hell will they abide," (23:102-103).

    "And We set a just balance for the Day of Resurrection so that no soul is wronged in aught. Though it be of the weight of a grain of mustard seed, We bring it. And We suffice for reckoners," (21:47).

    "They are those who deny the Signs of their Lord and the fact of their having to meet Him (in the Hereafter): vain will be their works, nor shall We, on the Day of Judgment, give them any weight," (online Qur'an, 18:105).

    "And He answers those who believe and do good deeds, and gives them more out of His grace; and (as for) the unbelievers, they shall have a severe punishment," (42:26, online, trans. by M.H. Shakir).

    "O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and speak the right word, He will put your deeds into a right state for you, and forgive you your faults; and whoever obeys Allah and His Apostle, he indeed achieves a mighty success," (33:70-71, online, trans. by M.H. Shakir).

    ". . . But if ye obey Allah and his messenger, he will not belittle aught of your deeds: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful," (49:14).
    "If you obey GOD and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful," (49:14).

    Those verses describe good deeds as a way to salvation, not just faith.

    Hebrews 13:16
    And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

    Luke 6:35
    "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.

    and so on. You obviously also missed the whole point of my post. Or you really think Christianity is special and superior to any other religion. If so, I ask, why is salvation only through Jesus and immaterial to how you act in life superior to a life of good deeds and kindness. Not the Bible quotes to show why you believe so. But why is that idea: Salvation only through accepting Jesus and not what kind of person you are better?
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  15. #5730
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Hebrews 13:16
    And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

    Luke 6:35
    "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.

    and so on.
    That verse specifically is talking about the rewards that Christians will receive when they go to Heaven, not their salvation. Again, you only have to believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins to be saved (in Christianity).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    You obviously also missed the whole point of my post. Or you really think Christianity is special and superior to any other religion.
    Well, I think everyone's biased in that they think their religion is superior. Otherwise, why would you believe in it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    If so, I ask, why is salvation only through Jesus and immaterial to how you act in life superior to a life of good deeds and kindness. Not the Bible quotes to show why you believe so.
    We are saved only by our faith in Jesus, and not acts of kindness or good deeds because Jesus (God) tells us this. It is by his grace that we are saved, so that none of us can boast that we are better than another. Here is why that is important. Say a person was raised in the church, was baptized, believed in Christ and he devoted his entire life to doing good works. And then another person lived in sin, never did anything good for others, was self absorbed and selfish almost his entire life, but one month before his death someone shared the gospel and he gave his life to Christ, believing in Jesus with all of his heart and doing good works because of his love for Christ. Which of these two persons deserves salvation more?

    I'll tell you---neither. None of us deserve salvation. NONE. We are ALL sinners and by right, we should not be saved from spiritual death. But because God loved us so much, he sent his Son to die on the cross to wipe away all sins, past, present and future. And He gives us believers eternal life through his sacrifice. And it's by the grace of God that we are saved. That's why it is something you can NOT earn.

    Read Matthew 20:1–16
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...16&version=KJV


    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    But why is that idea: Salvation only through accepting Jesus and not what kind of person you are better?
    Because of what I said above
    Favorite Artists Right Now: Ivan Reis, Andrea Sorrentino, Stuart Immonen, Jason Fabok, Olivier Coipel, Nick Dragotta, Kim Jacinto, Patrick Gleason, Jorge Jimenez, Greg Capullo, Jerome Opena, Steve McNiven, Kev Walker, Steve Epting, Sean Murphy.

    "I am a mad man with a box!"--- The Doctor

    Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life. He that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die."--- John 11:25-26

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