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  1. #5731
    Chosen One Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    That verse specifically is talking about the rewards that Christians will receive when they go to Heaven, not their salvation. Again, you only have to believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins to be saved (in Christianity).



    Well, I think everyone's biased in that they think their religion is superior. Otherwise, why would you believe in it?



    We are saved only by our faith in Jesus, and not acts of kindness or good deeds because Jesus (God) tells us this. It is by his grace that we are saved, so that none of us can boast that we are better than another. Here is why that is important. Say a person was raised in the church, was baptized, believed in Christ and he devoted his entire life to doing good works. And then another person lived in sin, never did anything good for others, was self absorbed and selfish almost his entire life, but one month before his death someone shared the gospel and he gave his life to Christ, believing in Jesus with all of his heart and doing good works because of his love for Christ. Which of these two persons deserves salvation more?
    The bolded is where the argument unravels because apparently some amount of good works still seems to be involved.
    "One may be intelligent, and a Nazi. Then one is not decent. One may be decent and a Nazi. Then one is not intelligent. And one may be intelligent and decent. Then one is not a Nazi"
    - Gerhard Bronner

  2. #5732
    Postin' since Aug '05 Dalak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    This is completely false and is bordering on Omnism.
    Is there a serious religion that advocates indiscriminate killing, theft, and/or destruction of property? I don't think there's one that pushes for rebellion to authority or habitual dishonesty either, unless it's as part of a taboo against unbelievers.

    If Omnism is the belief that no religion on earth has gotten it quite right, then check that box.

  3. #5733
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    That verse specifically is talking about the rewards that Christians will receive when they go to Heaven, not their salvation. Again, you only have to believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins to be saved (in Christianity).



    Well, I think everyone's biased in that they think their religion is superior. Otherwise, why would you believe in it?



    We are saved only by our faith in Jesus, and not acts of kindness or good deeds because Jesus (God) tells us this. It is by his grace that we are saved, so that none of us can boast that we are better than another. Here is why that is important. Say a person was raised in the church, was baptized, believed in Christ and he devoted his entire life to doing good works. And then another person lived in sin, never did anything good for others, was self absorbed and selfish almost his entire life, but one month before his death someone shared the gospel and he gave his life to Christ, believing in Jesus with all of his heart and doing good works because of his love for Christ. Which of these two persons deserves salvation more?

    I'll tell you---neither. None of us deserve salvation. NONE. We are ALL sinners and by right, we should not be saved from spiritual death. But because God loved us so much, he sent his Son to die on the cross to wipe away all sins, past, present and future. And He gives us believers eternal life through his sacrifice. And it's by the grace of God that we are saved. That's why it is something you can NOT earn.

    Read Matthew 20:116
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...16&version=KJV




    Because of what I said above

    You explained what Christians believe about salvation, but not why objectively that is better for mankind than salvation from being a good, kind and caring person.

    I must say that the line about everyone being biased is honest
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  4. #5734
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    You explained what Christians believe about salvation, but not why objectively that is better for mankind than salvation from being a good, kind and caring person.
    Because when you put works first, your're putting God second. When you put faith first, you're putting God first. When we sin, we are rebelling against God (it doesn't matter how good we are or how much good we do for others). When we trust and have faith in God, we are in His grace and have a right relationship with Him.

    Now, out of that right relationship, comes good works. Because I know how much God loves me, I want to share that love with others (doing good works). I don't do good works to get a pat on the back or because I think God will like me that much more. I do good works because I love him and because I love my fellow man/woman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    I must say that the line about everyone being biased is honest
    Oh, absolutely. If anyone says they're not biased when it comes to their faith, their being intellectually dishonest.
    Favorite Artists Right Now: Ivan Reis, Andrea Sorrentino, Stuart Immonen, Jason Fabok, Olivier Coipel, Nick Dragotta, Kim Jacinto, Patrick Gleason, Jorge Jimenez, Greg Capullo, Jerome Opena, Steve McNiven, Kev Walker, Steve Epting, Sean Murphy.

    "I am a mad man with a box!"--- The Doctor

    Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life. He that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die."--- John 11:25-26

  5. #5735
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    The bolded is where the argument unravels because apparently some amount of good works still seems to be involved.
    No, it doesn't. Good works without faith is meaningless to salvation. Think of it like this---good works is a by product of faith in Christ. It's really that simple.

    You're not doing good works to gain entry into Heaven. No one can. You do good works because of your faith and love for Jesus.
    Favorite Artists Right Now: Ivan Reis, Andrea Sorrentino, Stuart Immonen, Jason Fabok, Olivier Coipel, Nick Dragotta, Kim Jacinto, Patrick Gleason, Jorge Jimenez, Greg Capullo, Jerome Opena, Steve McNiven, Kev Walker, Steve Epting, Sean Murphy.

    "I am a mad man with a box!"--- The Doctor

    Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life. He that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die."--- John 11:25-26

  6. #5736
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalak View Post
    Is there a serious religion that advocates indiscriminate killing, theft, and/or destruction of property? I don't think there's one that pushes for rebellion to authority or habitual dishonesty either, unless it's as part of a taboo against unbelievers.

    If Omnism is the belief that no religion on earth has gotten it quite right, then check that box.
    Omnism is the belief that all religions are basically the same thing, just with slight differences. That couldn't be further from the truth. If you pray to Buddha, you're not a Christian. And neither are your beliefs.
    Favorite Artists Right Now: Ivan Reis, Andrea Sorrentino, Stuart Immonen, Jason Fabok, Olivier Coipel, Nick Dragotta, Kim Jacinto, Patrick Gleason, Jorge Jimenez, Greg Capullo, Jerome Opena, Steve McNiven, Kev Walker, Steve Epting, Sean Murphy.

    "I am a mad man with a box!"--- The Doctor

    Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life. He that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die."--- John 11:25-26

  7. #5737
    Chosen One Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    No, it doesn't. Good works without faith is meaningless to salvation. Think of it like this---good works is a by product of faith in Christ. It's really that simple.
    So, yes, indeed, good works are mandatory.
    "One may be intelligent, and a Nazi. Then one is not decent. One may be decent and a Nazi. Then one is not intelligent. And one may be intelligent and decent. Then one is not a Nazi"
    - Gerhard Bronner

  8. #5738
    Mighty Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    This is completely false and is bordering on Omnism.
    It doesn't seem false to me, nor do I see anything wrong with omnism.

  9. #5739
    Postin' since Aug '05 Dalak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    Omnism is the belief that all religions are basically the same thing, just with slight differences. That couldn't be further from the truth. If you pray to Buddha, you're not a Christian. And neither are your beliefs.
    Is the belief that murder is wrong a wholly christian one? I noticed that you didn't think my question was worth an answer.

    It seems to me that if there is a tribesman from deep within a jungle who has no concept of Jesus or God as we do and be saved then salvation isn't as limited as you are saying. If that isn't the case then there are people out there who were made with no chance for salvation at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    It doesn't seem false to me, nor do I see anything wrong with omnism.
    +1

  10. #5740
    Mighty Member Iron_Legion87's Avatar
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    I just had a conversation on Facebook that was really awkward and I don’t really discussing it given how the world is nowadays. A friend shared a video with some Australian guy telling his parents he was gay and he wanted them to attend his wedding. They declined due to their Christian beliefs and their son was hurt and obviously mad. The video has gone viral with many bashing the parents and Christians.


    For me it’s tough, because I am a Christian and believe in the the teachings of God and Jesus. My stance has always been to treat people how I would want to be treated regardless on if we share the same beliefs or not. It’s very possible to love and respect each other without having to agree with every thing they chose to do with their life. I am not a Christian that beats up on gay people, or women who chose adortion or think it’s right l. I know I am not perfect and I am in not position to cast stones, but I just said in the comments that it doesn’t make someone horrible for having beliefs. I got attacked and people claimed I was a bigot. I said nothing bad about gay or anything. It just sucks Christians get attacked and are seen as villains by society.

  11. #5741
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    No it doesn't.

    https://www.islamreligion.com/articl...-islam-part-1/



    It isn't that remarkable that only Christianity offers a way to how Christians view salvation. If you are to judge all religions through the filter of Christian salvation, of course they come up short. But guess what, Christianity comes up short through the filter of other religions.
    As I said, all religions are unique in their own way.
    What I am getting at is Christianity is what your personal faith tells you to follow. This is what you accept as true. That is fine.
    I have a problem when I start hearing how one religion is superior to another, or so different from any other that it is the only one that can be true. That way lies folly.


    What separates Christianity from others is Jesus. Jesus been the interceder for all people. Its not just about faith, it is about believing Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. the faith Christians have, is Jesus as the author and finisher of that faith.


    Hebrews 12:2 New King James Version (NKJV)

    2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.



    Without faith through Christ, there is no faith at all.

  12. #5742
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandfall View Post
    What separates Christianity from others is Jesus. Jesus been the interceder for all people. Its not just about faith, it is about believing Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. the faith Christians have, is Jesus as the author and finisher of that faith.


    Hebrews 12:2 New King James Version (NKJV)

    2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.



    Without faith through Christ, there is no faith at all.

    Well, of course. But what separates Islam is belief that Mohamed is the messenger of God. For Mormons that Joseph Smith received a new sacred text from an angel. For Jews that they are the chosen people of God, for Buddhist that they follow the path to Nirvana, and so on. Christianity is different, but not any different than any other religion is different. Each is unique in it's own way.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  13. #5743
    Fantastic Member Psimitar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalak View Post
    Is the belief that murder is wrong a wholly christian one? I noticed that you didn't think my question was worth an answer.

    It seems to me that if there is a tribesman from deep within a jungle who has no concept of Jesus or God as we do and be saved then salvation isn't as limited as you are saying. If that isn't the case then there are people out there who were made with no chance for salvation at all.
    That is not a valid argument. The Biblical view is that all mankind descended from Noah and his three sons. They were given the Noahic covenant (Genesis 9:1-17) and had very good understanding of who God was as the Creator of the universe. At some point down the line, they abandoned and rejected God but this is not an excuse. For as Paul wrote in Romans 1:18-21:

    "18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

    21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles."

    So again, your example of the bushman that has no concept of God is based on a presupposition that mankind "evolved" in the manner that paganism and science has stated as truth. This is counter to what the Bible teaches.

  14. #5744
    Mighty Member adkal's Avatar
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    Esther 4:14

    "For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance for the Jews will arise from another place, but you and your father’s family will perish. And who knows but that you have come to your royal position for such a time as this?

    Whilst this verse is Mordecai speaking to Esther, I find it speaks to us, too. Often we're given 'cause' to be dismissive of the gifts and skills and positions God has placed us in - most of us on these boards, for example, are not politicians or considered to be people of power and/or influence, but that (willfully?) ignores and dismisses the fact that there is a plan for each and every one of us.

    It ignores that we are each given moments to make a difference. The moment might seem small and insignificant but it may well be the pebble that causes an avalanche of change.

    We're supposed to step up. We're supposed to be brave. We're supposed to prepare and cleanse and give ourselves to His will.

    It can be scary but it's something we can, each of us and in our own way, do.

    We have our own Hamans out there right now, stirring things up against "people scattered abroad and dispersed among the peoples in all the provinces of your kingdom whose customs are different from those of all other people and who do not obey the king’s laws; it is not in the king’s best interest to tolerate them". Not just directed at world leaders but also the kings of their own respective worlds - the regular Joe and his castle-home.

    The Book of Esther, in my experience, is one of those that is there in the Bible but is hardly ever read (mainstream). It's in passing, and letting it pass by is an immense loss in a person's development and understanding (in my opinion) (its lessons are out there in other forms, of course, but it doesn't hurt to take a look at it now and then ).

  15. #5745
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    So, yes, indeed, good works are mandatory.
    Its a yes and no there. Charles Spurgeon “We have been clear upon the fact that good works are not the cause of salvation; let us be equally clear upon the truth that they are the necessary fruit of it.” Genuine salvation is followed naturally by good deeds and works. That those that take Christ in follow his example and try to live as he did (WWJD?). Was Hitler Christian? If he took Christ as his savior but did not follow his example of life then no his salvation was not genuine and there for not a Christian because good work did not follow his devotion to Christ.
    Surely not everybody was kung fu fighting

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