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  1. #5746
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    So, yes, indeed, good works are mandatory.
    Its a yes and no there. Charles Spurgeon “We have been clear upon the fact that good works are not the cause of salvation; let us be equally clear upon the truth that they are the necessary fruit of it.” Genuine salvation is followed naturally by good deeds and works. That those that take Christ in follow his example and try to live as he did (WWJD?). Was Hitler Christian? If he took Christ as his savior but did not follow his example of life then no his salvation was not genuine and there for not a Christian because good work did not follow his devotion to Christ.
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  2. #5747
    Mighty Member Iron_Legion87's Avatar
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    Christianity isn't just about works. It's about acknowledging Jesus as your personal savior and living a life that honors him the best that you can.

  3. #5748
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalak View Post
    It seems to me that if there is a tribesman from deep within a jungle who has no concept of Jesus or God as we do and be saved then salvation isn't as limited as you are saying. If that isn't the case then there are people out there who were made with no chance for salvation at all.
    Many Christians believe that God couldn't possibly be so cruel as to just allow people no possible chance to be saved, so they will rationalize it by saying that God reveals himself through nature and conscience.

    But by the strict word of the Bible, people who have not heard of Jesus do not have a chance for salvation. If everyone could just be saved by observing nature, I'm not sure Jesus would have given his disciples the Great Commission. Especially considering that the commission meant that many of those he was speaking to directly, along with countless others through the years, were going to be martyred for preaching the gospel. Seems like a bad thing to tell us to go preach the word if it doesn't matter.

    So I tend to think people are truly lost until they are told the way to salvation. But l chicken out a little and state that the decision about who gets saved is ultimately up to God alone. There isn't truly a formula for it, except that its not about works at all, clearly.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  4. #5749
    Postin' since Aug '05 Dalak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psimitar View Post
    That is not a valid argument. The Biblical view is that all mankind descended from Noah and his three sons. They were given the Noahic covenant (Genesis 9:1-17) and had very good understanding of who God was as the Creator of the universe. At some point down the line, they abandoned and rejected God but this is not an excuse. For as Paul wrote in Romans 1:18-21:

    "18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

    21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles."

    So again, your example of the bushman that has no concept of God is based on a presupposition that mankind "evolved" in the manner that paganism and science has stated as truth. This is counter to what the Bible teaches.
    Your argument blames the people of the past for abandoning god, but doesn't take into account the 'innocence' of those descended from them. After 200-300 years I wouldn't say those people suppressed any truths but grew up without the truth in that case. Do you think it's their fault they weren't ever taught what their ancestors decided to reject? Does God? Because even if not they are still headed to Hell through no fault of their own, correct?

    I'd still like to know if the belief that murder is wrong is a wholly christian one.

    E:
    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    Its a yes and no there. Charles Spurgeon “We have been clear upon the fact that good works are not the cause of salvation; let us be equally clear upon the truth that they are the necessary fruit of it.” Genuine salvation is followed naturally by good deeds and works. That those that take Christ in follow his example and try to live as he did (WWJD?). Was Hitler Christian? If he took Christ as his savior but did not follow his example of life then no his salvation was not genuine and there for not a Christian because good work did not follow his devotion to Christ.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Many Christians believe that God couldn't possibly be so cruel as to just allow people no possible chance to be saved, so they will rationalize it by saying that God reveals himself through nature and conscience.

    But by the strict word of the Bible, people who have not heard of Jesus do not have a chance for salvation. If everyone could just be saved by observing nature, I'm not sure Jesus would have given his disciples the Great Commission. Especially considering that the commission meant that many of those he was speaking to directly, along with countless others through the years, were going to be martyred for preaching the gospel. Seems like a bad thing to tell us to go preach the word if it doesn't matter.

    So I tend to think people are truly lost until they are told the way to salvation. But l chicken out a little and state that the decision about who gets saved is ultimately up to God alone. There isn't truly a formula for it, except that its not about works at all, clearly.
    Hmmm, it seems to me that there's some conflict on the subject of good works not being necessary.
    Last edited by Dalak; 02-14-2018 at 10:53 AM.

  5. #5750
    Mighty Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    I'm not sure Jesus would have given his disciples the Great Commission. Especially considering that the commission meant that many of those he was speaking to directly, along with countless others through the years, were going to be martyred for preaching the gospel. Seems like a bad thing to tell us to go preach the word if it doesn't matter.
    Did he really give such a wide-reaching Commission or was it something added further down the line?

    There are several instances in Gospels where he (as) insists that he has only been sent for the 'lost sheep of the house of Israel' (i.e. the Jews) and, although he blesses a couple of Gentiles, his words towards them are harsh (he calls them 'dogs').

    After he left the disciples, there wasn't much going on with regard to taking his message to the wider world - to the Gentile world. The Jerusalem Church (headed by James) was not actively preaching to them. They accepted those Gentiles who embraced Christ's teachings but there was still a separation.

    So was Jesus (as) sent only for the Jews (as the spiritual messiah they didn't want over the warrior-king-messiah they kept hoping for) or was he for everyone and (astaghfirullah) a racist and bigot about it?

  6. #5751
    Fantastic Member Psimitar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalak View Post
    Your argument blames the people of the past for abandoning god, but doesn't take into account the 'innocence' of those descended from them. After 200-300 years I wouldn't say those people suppressed any truths but grew up without the truth in that case. Do you think it's their fault they weren't ever taught what their ancestors decided to reject? Does God? Because even if not they are still headed to Hell through no fault of their own, correct?
    Yes, that's exactly what God says. If you look at that passage in Romans 1, it says that failure to acknowledge God as the Creator is enough to indict. It says that all the things God has created that you see around you should be enough to acknowledge and glorify God. Failure to do so puts you under God's ultimate judgment. So the Great Commission to Christians to spread the Gospel to the entire world is not to show them something they've never heard before, it's to remind them of something that they as a culture forgot and abandoned sometime in the past.


    I'd still like to know if the belief that murder is wrong is a wholly christian one.
    The belief that murder is wrong predates Christian ideology by about 2500 years (if you're following Biblical chronology). Part of the Noahic covenant that God gave to Noah and his sons said specifically "And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.

    “Whoever sheds human blood,
    by humans shall their blood be shed;
    for in the image of God
    has God made mankind.

    Genesis 9:5-6

    So as far back as the Flood, God puts capital punishment into place which necessitates the institution of civil government. This would pre-date the earliest set of laws including the Code of Hammurabi.

    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    Did he really give such a wide-reaching Commission or was it something added further down the line?

    There are several instances in Gospels where he (as) insists that he has only been sent for the 'lost sheep of the house of Israel' (i.e. the Jews) and, although he blesses a couple of Gentiles, his words towards them are harsh (he calls them 'dogs').

    After he left the disciples, there wasn't much going on with regard to taking his message to the wider world - to the Gentile world. The Jerusalem Church (headed by James) was not actively preaching to them. They accepted those Gentiles who embraced Christ's teachings but there was still a separation.

    So was Jesus (as) sent only for the Jews (as the spiritual messiah they didn't want over the warrior-king-messiah they kept hoping for) or was he for everyone and (astaghfirullah) a racist and bigot about it?
    Jesus did come to minister to the Jews as they were God's chosen people. But because of their rejection, salvation was extended to the Gentiles. One could argue that this only occurred because the Jews rejected him as Messiah but you could also argue that Christ knew he would be rejected and had every intention of extending the message of salvation to the Gentile world. In Jesus' "Good Shepherd" discourse in John 10:14-16, Jesus states:

    14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd."

    Paul also confirms this in Romans 9-11 where he discusses at length, Israel's rejection of the Gospel, the adoption of the Gentiles into the promises of the Abrahamic Covenant, and Israel's ultimate reconciliation as God's chosen people.
    Last edited by Psimitar; 02-14-2018 at 11:41 AM.

  7. #5752
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalak View Post
    Hmmm, it seems to me that there's some conflict on the subject of good works not being necessary.
    Its an argument over 1,000 years old and still going!

    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    Did he really give such a wide-reaching Commission or was it something added further down the line?

    There are several instances in Gospels where he (as) insists that he has only been sent for the 'lost sheep of the house of Israel' (i.e. the Jews) and, although he blesses a couple of Gentiles, his words towards them are harsh (he calls them 'dogs').

    After he left the disciples, there wasn't much going on with regard to taking his message to the wider world - to the Gentile world. The Jerusalem Church (headed by James) was not actively preaching to them. They accepted those Gentiles who embraced Christ's teachings but there was still a separation.

    So was Jesus (as) sent only for the Jews (as the spiritual messiah they didn't want over the warrior-king-messiah they kept hoping for) or was he for everyone and (astaghfirullah) a racist and bigot about it?
    I would say he was only a witness to the Jews, based on my observations of the Bible account. The Bible expressly says that the Jews are God's chosen people and they get revelations from God first. Its a theme throughout the Old Testament and continues into the New Testament. The plan seemed to have been to convince the Jews first and then have them spread it to the rest of the world.

    The Great Commission refers to all nations, as written in the Bible. There is also that (in)famous reference to "other sheep" in the gospel of John, which is generally thought to refer to Gentiles. I can't really address "down the line" other than to say that its a rabbit-warren of conspiracy theories once you go there, because there is no direct evidence to support it.

    Anyway there was a lot of disagreement in the early church about whether to spread the gospel out to the Gentiles, as documented in the Bible, in spite of the Great Commission. Due to bigotry in some church leaders, I think (cough, Peter).

    Thankfully Jesus fought bigotry on just about every level, but really fought it in the church of his time. Remember the story of the widow's mite? I still get mad at those dumbasses who refused to acknowledge her sacrifice.
    Last edited by Scott Taylor; 02-14-2018 at 11:46 AM.
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  8. #5753
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    So, yes, indeed, good works are mandatory.
    You know, this really isn't that hard to understand. Good works are not mandatory. I wrote "Good works without faith is meaningless to salvation". That means good works is not required for salvation. All you need is faith. But your faith will produce good works.
    “I will fight. Forever. For everyone, whether they know it or not. Whether they are watching or not. I will always fight.”---Daredevil

    "There is a difference between you and me. We both looked into the abyss, but when it looked back at us... you blinked."---Batman

    "I am a mad man with a box!"---The Doctor

    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.---John 3:16

  9. #5754
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron_Legion87 View Post
    Christianity isn't just about works. It's about acknowledging Jesus as your personal savior and living a life that honors him the best that you can.
    Right. If you're a Christian and you're stranded on a desert island with no one else there and you lived there until you died, you are saved by your faith. Not by works, because you didn't do any good works. You simply had faith in Jesus.

    Or even easier to explain---if someone is handicapped and believes in Jesus, but can't do "good works", they are still saved because of their faith, without good works.
    “I will fight. Forever. For everyone, whether they know it or not. Whether they are watching or not. I will always fight.”---Daredevil

    "There is a difference between you and me. We both looked into the abyss, but when it looked back at us... you blinked."---Batman

    "I am a mad man with a box!"---The Doctor

    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.---John 3:16

  10. #5755
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Many Christians believe that God couldn't possibly be so cruel as to just allow people no possible chance to be saved, so they will rationalize it by saying that God reveals himself through nature and conscience.

    But by the strict word of the Bible, people who have not heard of Jesus do not have a chance for salvation. If everyone could just be saved by observing nature, I'm not sure Jesus would have given his disciples the Great Commission. Especially considering that the commission meant that many of those he was speaking to directly, along with countless others through the years, were going to be martyred for preaching the gospel. Seems like a bad thing to tell us to go preach the word if it doesn't matter.

    So I tend to think people are truly lost until they are told the way to salvation. But l chicken out a little and state that the decision about who gets saved is ultimately up to God alone. There isn't truly a formula for it, except that its not about works at all, clearly.
    Actually, you're right in both aspects. If you have not heard the gospel or have faith in Jesus, then you are not saved. But you're also right in that who gets saved is ultimately up to God because He is the one who will judge all of us. And our finite mind cannot fathom His ways.
    “I will fight. Forever. For everyone, whether they know it or not. Whether they are watching or not. I will always fight.”---Daredevil

    "There is a difference between you and me. We both looked into the abyss, but when it looked back at us... you blinked."---Batman

    "I am a mad man with a box!"---The Doctor

    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.---John 3:16

  11. #5756
    Postin' since Aug '05 Dalak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psimitar View Post
    Yes, that's exactly what God says. If you look at that passage in Romans 1, it says that failure to acknowledge God as the Creator is enough to indict. It says that all the things God has created that you see around you should be enough to acknowledge and glorify God. Failure to do so puts you under God's ultimate judgment. So the Great Commission to Christians to spread the Gospel to the entire world is not to show them something they've never heard before, it's to remind them of something that they as a culture forgot and abandoned sometime in the past.
    So He really is damming people to Hell because existence itself doesn't lead them specifically to the Judaeo-Christian God or Jesus.

    BTW, if the culture lost it some time in the past, current members still never have heard it before.

    The belief that murder is wrong predates Christian ideology by about 2500 years (if you're following Biblical chronology). Part of the Noahic covenant that God gave to Noah and his sons said specifically "And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.

    “Whoever sheds human blood,
    by humans shall their blood be shed;
    for in the image of God
    has God made mankind.

    Genesis 9:5-6

    So as far back as the Flood, God puts capital punishment into place which necessitates the institution of civil government. This would pre-date the earliest set of laws including the Code of Hammurabi.
    I guess I wasn't clear enough (Judaeo-Christian), but at least you seem to be in the Yes camp when it comes to the question.

  12. #5757
    Fantastic Member abulafia's Avatar
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    can someone explain to me please why god has his special people?

    and maybe more important, why all these humans that never had the chance to hear of jesus´s salvation because they haven´t been born yet are denied?

    what is the soul in christian believe? do they stay with god till they are born into flesh?
    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

  13. #5758
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    Did he really give such a wide-reaching Commission or was it something added further down the line?
    Yes, Jesus did give the apostles the Great Commission to preach "to all nations". Matthew 28:16-20--

    Matthew 28:16-20 King James Version (KJV)
    16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

    17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

    18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

    19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    There are several instances in Gospels where he (as) insists that he has only been sent for the 'lost sheep of the house of Israel' (i.e. the Jews) and, although he blesses a couple of Gentiles, his words towards them are harsh (he calls them 'dogs').
    Not true. He clearly states that he has been sent for the lost sheep of Israel first. He states this many times throughout the Gospels. The good news was to be preached to the Jews first, then the Gentiles. And in the example of Him calling the woman a dog, he was simply saying that she was "spiritually unclean". He was testing her faith and teaching His disciples an important lesson. Her response to Him was one of faith and because of that, Jesus rewarded her.
    “I will fight. Forever. For everyone, whether they know it or not. Whether they are watching or not. I will always fight.”---Daredevil

    "There is a difference between you and me. We both looked into the abyss, but when it looked back at us... you blinked."---Batman

    "I am a mad man with a box!"---The Doctor

    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.---John 3:16

  14. #5759
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abulafia View Post
    can someone explain to me please why god has his special people?
    Not sure what you mean by this

    Quote Originally Posted by abulafia View Post
    and maybe more important, why all these humans that never had the chance to hear of jesus´s salvation because they haven´t been born yet are denied?
    If you're referring to babies who die before being born, they go to Heaven.
    “I will fight. Forever. For everyone, whether they know it or not. Whether they are watching or not. I will always fight.”---Daredevil

    "There is a difference between you and me. We both looked into the abyss, but when it looked back at us... you blinked."---Batman

    "I am a mad man with a box!"---The Doctor

    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.---John 3:16

  15. #5760
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Today's devotion:

    AN EVANGELIST’S HEART: SORROW
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue.../devotions/14/
    “I will fight. Forever. For everyone, whether they know it or not. Whether they are watching or not. I will always fight.”---Daredevil

    "There is a difference between you and me. We both looked into the abyss, but when it looked back at us... you blinked."---Batman

    "I am a mad man with a box!"---The Doctor

    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.---John 3:16

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