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  1. #6211
    Fantastic Member Psimitar's Avatar
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    The concept of blood atonement is introduced almost immediately after the Fall. Adam and Eve attempted to cover their nakedness with fig leaves and God himself kills the first animals and uses their skins to cover Adam and Eve. So even here there is a model that it is only by the shedding of innocent blood that our iniquity can be washed away.

    If you look at the Binding of Isaac (Genesis 22:1-19) as a model of Christ's sacrifice, there's a point where Isaac notes that while they've got all the materials for making a sacrifice, there's no actual sacrifice. Abraham replies “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” (Gen 22:8) This statement was prophetic in it's implication. Especially considering that the very location that Abraham attempted to sacrifice Isaac was the very location that Jesus was crucified. (The highest part of Mt. Moriah)

    The problem with a the narrative of a "loving God" is that while, yes, he's a loving God he is also a righteous God. So how does God deal with his creations, who are cursed with a sinful nature, without compromising his righteousness? It's not enough to simply keep the Law. If anything, the Law shows us how we are utterly incapable of achieving God's righteousness on our own, not just in our actions but also in our hearts. Therefore salvation from an external source is required. The problem then becomes what are we being saved from? The answer is God's judgment of sin. You cannot have salvation without there also being judgment. God saved Noah and his family from the Flood but he judged the rest of the world. God saved the Hebrews from slavery and judged the Egyptian. And God will eventually judge the wicked that have rejected not only Him but the salvation that Jesus's death provides.

    From a dispensational point of view, we are now living in a "day of grace" where God provides the entire world the opportunity to repent of their sins and accept Jesus Christ not only as their savior but as their Lord and King and to live a life in obedience to Him. But a day will come, just as it did in Noah's day, when Noah and his family entered the ark and God himself closed the door, that the "day of grace" will end and at that time God will judge all the Earth and those rejected him will fall under that judgment.

    I know that kind of message makes many uncomfortable but part of the message of the Gospel as always been the repentance of sins and obedience to God.

  2. #6212
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Blood atonement is a way of looking at Christ's sacrifice, but really the cross is rooted the concept of covenant in the Bible. Covenants are a legal agreement that God set up, involving a ritual and an oath. And a blood sacrifice is always part of it, to seal the covenant and make it binding. Its not entirely unlike the concept of a "blood oath"

    The simplest covenant mentioned in the Bible is the one between Noah and all living creatures and God, where God promises not to flood the earth again. Noah sacrificed to God to seal the agreement or covenant.

    Others involve Abraham (founding of Jewish nation) - sealed with blood of an animal, in a rather complicated ritual
    Moses (founding of Jewish law) - sealed with a blood sacrifice
    Aaron (dedication of the Jewish priest class) - sealed with a blood sacrifice
    David (unification of Israel under a single family monarchy) - sealed with a blood sacrifice

    Christ's last supper through his death on the cross is known as the New Covenant. Like all the other covenants it involved a ritual and was sealed with a blood sacrifice.

    So one cannot understand the meaning of Christ's death on the cross without an understanding of the idea of covenant and a concept of the meaning of the Last Supper as well. Christ even said "this cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood." When churches perform communion, it is to memorialize the new legal agreement between mankind and God that occurred through Christ.

    When I think of Christ's Last Supper through his death, to me it means God means everything he says in the Bible is true. He really will give us salvation if we ask for it, its not just a bunch of words.
    Last edited by Scott Taylor; 04-13-2018 at 10:28 AM.
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  3. #6213
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    That makes sense.

    Really? I was under the impression that his suffering and death was for past and future sins. From what I can see, even the most devoted Christians admit that the sincerest of followers still commit sins - though try to keep it to a minimum.
    Here is a point where there can be differences. Mainstream Christianity says he took all sins for all time. Then one may ask this. How can anyone be punished for a crime which has not been committed yet? First there is crime, then there is punishment. Similarly, first there should be sin. Then shall come its suffering.

    So, the sequence shall be like this. He took the sins of all his contemporary followers when he suffered on the cross. And set a precedence that he will take the sins of his future followers in the future.

    Here is a point of difference. But i won't contradict the mainstream teaching. I am no authority here on the Bible. Whichever might be correct, the result is the same. Jesus Christ takes the sins of all his followers. Whether his contemporaries when he was present on Earth, or of the future followers.

    And the point stays that Christians are expected to live pure lives free of sin. Christians shall always follow the Ten Commandments. If a follower does not follow the instructions can that person be called a follower? Even by common sense, a criminal can be given a pardon. His sentence maybe shortened. But after coming out of prison if he again commits a crime, its back to the prison for him. Mercy does not mean freedom to commit sins again.

    One may accidentally commit a sin. There is a story.

    Once a thief decided to give up his criminal life, and decided to live a honest life. He decided that i shall go to a place of pilgrimage with saintly persons. The saintly persons took him with them not knowing of his criminal past. Once, they stayed in a guest house for the night. And all of them went to sleep. When they got up in the morning they found everyone's luggage and belongings were scattered here and there. There was some commotion and finally all of them got their belongings back. They were curious as to how did this happen. And the former thief came in front and informed them that he did all this.

    They asked him, "Why did you do this?" And the ex-thief said, "Before coming to this pilgrimage, in my former life i used to be a thief. I had decided that i will give up a life of crime and live a pure life. That is why i came with you to pilgrimage. But once you went to sleep, i saw all of your belongings. And i wanted to steal them again. But i could not. You are saintly persons who trusted me. And i had given up sinful life. So, i took one luggage and placed it in another place. Then i took another and placed it in a different place. I kept doing this all night. I beg your pardon for causing such inconvenience to all of you."

    From the story one can see a sincere person who wants to give up impious life, may be forced to commit sins so out of habit. Such a sincere person can commit a sin. Sins can be committed by mistake too. God who knows everyone's heart will forgive such a sincere person. Confessions in churches are meant for that.

    And you can catch this. Even if one is free from sinful activities, he or she might still not be free from a desire to commit sin. Being sinless is but one condition to get into the kingdom of God. Anyone who is following the ten commandments is not committing sins. But Bible is not simply the ten commandments. There's more. Following the Bible sincerely one can be free even from the desire of committing sin. But that is for another day if we wish to discuss more.

    Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but it sounds like you're saying that Jesus's crucifixion doesn't directly cleanse us of our sins, but instead teaches us by example to help us not sin. Much as the second part was always part of it, I was always under the impression that the first part was the main reason.
    God's plans are such that he manages to achieve multiple goals with one action. Removing a person's sin and inspiring the person to not do so again are not contradictory to each other. Its a signature of his action. He is the greatest expert.

    The idea of the Bible is to make us pure souls. Ten commandments is one of the basic teachings of Christianity. We shall live pure lives. I had given an analogy before in this thread. Teachings are in different levels according to the follower's capability and situation. You can't make a grade one kid understand negative integers. For that kid, "subtracting 5 from 2 is not possible", is the correct lesson. Different people may understand Jesus' crucifixion differently, but as long as we understand that we shall give up sinful life and be religious its alright. Provided the source of the understanding is bonafide. Later, we can get into the nitty gritty.

    And the point stays that God, Jesus are full of infinite mercy for us. They don't want us to rot and suffer in this world. But go to God's kingdom and thus, make a permanent solution to all of our suffering.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 04-13-2018 at 10:16 AM.

  4. #6214
    Mighty Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psimitar View Post
    The concept of blood atonement is introduced almost immediately after the Fall. Adam and Eve attempted to cover their nakedness with fig leaves and God himself kills the first animals and uses their skins to cover Adam and Eve. So even here there is a model that it is only by the shedding of innocent blood that our iniquity can be washed away.
    It's not really 'atonement', though, or being 'washed away'. From what I have read over the years, the word used is 'kaffar' and it means 'to cover up' - and is the word used to describe Noah putting pitch on the Ark.


    I know that kind of message makes many uncomfortable but part of the message of the Gospel as always been the repentance of sins and obedience to God.
    It's been the basic message through all the revealed faiths across the world.

  5. #6215
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Today's devotion:

    AN INCREDIBLE CREDIT
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue.../devotions/13/
    Favorite Artists Right Now: Ivan Reis, Stuart Immonen, Jason Fabok, Olivier Coipel, Nick Dragotta, Kim Jacinto, Patrick Gleason, Jorge Jimenez, Greg Capullo, Jerome Opena, Steve McNiven, Russell Dauterman, Kev Walker, Steve Epting, Sean Murphy.

    "I am a mad man with a box!"---The Doctor

    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.---John 3:16

  6. #6216
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Today's devotion:

    JESUS TEACHES US TO FORGIVE
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue.../devotions/15/
    Favorite Artists Right Now: Ivan Reis, Stuart Immonen, Jason Fabok, Olivier Coipel, Nick Dragotta, Kim Jacinto, Patrick Gleason, Jorge Jimenez, Greg Capullo, Jerome Opena, Steve McNiven, Russell Dauterman, Kev Walker, Steve Epting, Sean Murphy.

    "I am a mad man with a box!"---The Doctor

    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.---John 3:16

  7. #6217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    Here is a point where there can be differences. Mainstream Christianity says he took all sins for all time. Then one may ask this. How can anyone be punished for a crime which has not been committed yet? First there is crime, then there is punishment. Similarly, first there should be sin. Then shall come its suffering.

    So, the sequence shall be like this. He took the sins of all his contemporary followers when he suffered on the cross. And set a precedence that he will take the sins of his future followers in the future.

    Here is a point of difference. But i won't contradict the mainstream teaching. I am no authority here on the Bible. Whichever might be correct, the result is the same. Jesus Christ takes the sins of all his followers. Whether his contemporaries when he was present on Earth, or of the future followers.

    And the point stays that Christians are expected to live pure lives free of sin. Christians shall always follow the Ten Commandments. If a follower does not follow the instructions can that person be called a follower? Even by common sense, a criminal can be given a pardon. His sentence maybe shortened. But after coming out of prison if he again commits a crime, its back to the prison for him. Mercy does not mean freedom to commit sins again.

    One may accidentally commit a sin. There is a story.

    Once a thief decided to give up his criminal life, and decided to live a honest life. He decided that i shall go to a place of pilgrimage with saintly persons. The saintly persons took him with them not knowing of his criminal past. Once, they stayed in a guest house for the night. And all of them went to sleep. When they got up in the morning they found everyone's luggage and belongings were scattered here and there. There was some commotion and finally all of them got their belongings back. They were curious as to how did this happen. And the former thief came in front and informed them that he did all this.

    They asked him, "Why did you do this?" And the ex-thief said, "Before coming to this pilgrimage, in my former life i used to be a thief. I had decided that i will give up a life of crime and live a pure life. That is why i came with you to pilgrimage. But once you went to sleep, i saw all of your belongings. And i wanted to steal them again. But i could not. You are saintly persons who trusted me. And i had given up sinful life. So, i took one luggage and placed it in another place. Then i took another and placed it in a different place. I kept doing this all night. I beg your pardon for causing such inconvenience to all of you."

    From the story one can see a sincere person who wants to give up impious life, may be forced to commit sins so out of habit. Such a sincere person can commit a sin. Sins can be committed by mistake too. God who knows everyone's heart will forgive such a sincere person. Confessions in churches are meant for that.

    And you can catch this. Even if one is free from sinful activities, he or she might still not be free from a desire to commit sin. Being sinless is but one condition to get into the kingdom of God. Anyone who is following the ten commandments is not committing sins. But Bible is not simply the ten commandments. There's more. Following the Bible sincerely one can be free even from the desire of committing sin. But that is for another day if we wish to discuss more.



    God's plans are such that he manages to achieve multiple goals with one action. Removing a person's sin and inspiring the person to not do so again are not contradictory to each other. Its a signature of his action. He is the greatest expert.

    The idea of the Bible is to make us pure souls. Ten commandments is one of the basic teachings of Christianity. We shall live pure lives. I had given an analogy before in this thread. Teachings are in different levels according to the follower's capability and situation. You can't make a grade one kid understand negative integers. For that kid, "subtracting 5 from 2 is not possible", is the correct lesson. Different people may understand Jesus' crucifixion differently, but as long as we understand that we shall give up sinful life and be religious its alright. Provided the source of the understanding is bonafide. Later, we can get into the nitty gritty.

    And the point stays that God, Jesus are full of infinite mercy for us. They don't want us to rot and suffer in this world. But go to God's kingdom and thus, make a permanent solution to all of our suffering.
    The ten commandments are just about impossible to keep. Everyone is a sinner.

    "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23

  8. #6218
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnockBlock View Post
    The ten commandments are just about impossible to keep. Everyone is a sinner.

    "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23
    Its true that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Why else was Jesus sent to deliver us? Deliverance is for the fallen. Not for those who already are in a position of glory.

  9. #6219
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Today's devotion:

    FORGIVE YOUR BROTHER AND SISTER
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue.../devotions/16/
    Favorite Artists Right Now: Ivan Reis, Stuart Immonen, Jason Fabok, Olivier Coipel, Nick Dragotta, Kim Jacinto, Patrick Gleason, Jorge Jimenez, Greg Capullo, Jerome Opena, Steve McNiven, Russell Dauterman, Kev Walker, Steve Epting, Sean Murphy.

    "I am a mad man with a box!"---The Doctor

    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.---John 3:16

  10. #6220
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    So one cannot understand the meaning of Christ's death on the cross without an understanding of the idea of covenant and a concept of the meaning of the Last Supper as well. Christ even said "this cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood." When churches perform communion, it is to memorialize the new legal agreement between mankind and God that occurred through Christ.

    When I think of Christ's Last Supper through his death, to me it means God means everything he says in the Bible is true. He really will give us salvation if we ask for it, its not just a bunch of words.
    That's a great assessment. It's sort of like you know someone believes in your potential to succeed if they're willing to co-sign a loan for you. Christ, of course, goes much further than that.

    It is a beautiful thing to realize that Christ believes in you so much that he was willing to die to open up our true potential.

    I also find it a great comfort that Christ doesn't view suffering from a theoretical perspective, but can encourage us because he himself has experienced and overcome it. The author of Hebrews has some very poignant things to say about why that's so important.

  11. #6221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    Its true that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Why else was Jesus sent to deliver us? Deliverance is for the fallen. Not for those who already are in a position of glory.
    He came to fulfill the commandments and set an example for a world that has so much trouble.

    Only the angels who stayed obedient to God are already in position of glory.

    Many people can say they found themselves. How they maintain themselves is a daily challenge.

  12. #6222
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnockBlock View Post
    He came to fulfill the commandments and set an example for a world that has so much trouble.

    Only the angels who stayed obedient to God are already in position of glory.

    Many people can say they found themselves. How they maintain themselves is a daily challenge.
    I agree. Its a challenge. There are so many difficulties in living a pure life.

    Its a new thing for me. 'He came to fulfill the commandments'. He did come to set an example for us. But what is 'fulfill the commandments'?

    Ten commandments are some of the basic teachings which are to be followed. Following religious life while committing sins is like lighting a fire and then throwing water into it, or taking a few steps forward and then going backwards.

    To enter the kingdom of God not only one has to be clear of all sins but also the desire to commit more. How are the people in heaven living peacefully then? They are free from all these things like lust, anger, greed, etc. When one has these in one's heart one can't find peace, even if in some way the world around him or her is peaceful. Its a struggle. But its for a good cause. All of this may look impossible. But its possible if one is sincere and one gets the mercy of Christ and God.

  13. #6223
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Today's devotion:

    THE UNFORGIVABLE SIN
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue.../devotions/17/
    Favorite Artists Right Now: Ivan Reis, Stuart Immonen, Jason Fabok, Olivier Coipel, Nick Dragotta, Kim Jacinto, Patrick Gleason, Jorge Jimenez, Greg Capullo, Jerome Opena, Steve McNiven, Russell Dauterman, Kev Walker, Steve Epting, Sean Murphy.

    "I am a mad man with a box!"---The Doctor

    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.---John 3:16

  14. #6224
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    That's a great assessment. It's sort of like you know someone believes in your potential to succeed if they're willing to co-sign a loan for you. Christ, of course, goes much further than that.

    It is a beautiful thing to realize that Christ believes in you so much that he was willing to die to open up our true potential.

    I also find it a great comfort that Christ doesn't view suffering from a theoretical perspective, but can encourage us because he himself has experienced and overcome it. The author of Hebrews has some very poignant things to say about why that's so important.
    Amen brother!
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  15. #6225
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Today's devotion:

    A FATHER FORGIVES
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue.../devotions/18/
    Favorite Artists Right Now: Ivan Reis, Stuart Immonen, Jason Fabok, Olivier Coipel, Nick Dragotta, Kim Jacinto, Patrick Gleason, Jorge Jimenez, Greg Capullo, Jerome Opena, Steve McNiven, Russell Dauterman, Kev Walker, Steve Epting, Sean Murphy.

    "I am a mad man with a box!"---The Doctor

    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.---John 3:16

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