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    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    God is omniscient. He knew that people would sin. He knew exactly how the universe would turn out when he created it - so what we got is exactly what he designed.



    Actually my take on this is that if we take the Christian teachings at their word - that God is omnipotent and omniscient - then God is not good. He knows what is good, but doesn't do it.
    I think we have to just agree to disagree
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    Isaiah 45:7 KJV
    Did you read the whole book of Isaiah or even the whole chapter? Because you cherry picked the one line in it. God wasn't saying he created evil on purpose so there would be evil in the world. God was saying he created everything in the heavens and earth, which includes evil like Satan, who was once a magnificent angel but was cast down because he turned evil.
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    "I am a mad man with a box!"--- The Doctor

    Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life. He that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die."--- John 11:25-26

  3. #7233
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    Did you read the whole book of Isaiah or even the whole chapter? Because you cherry picked the one line in it. God wasn't saying he created evil on purpose so there would be evil in the world. God was saying he created everything in the heavens and earth, which includes evil like Satan, who was once a magnificent angel but was cast down because he turned evil.
    I've read the entire bible, and I get something completely different out of it. The evil that Isaiah is talking about is not "moral" evil (that comes from man), but more Gods punishment type evil... floods, fire balls out of the sky that destroy people, banishment, turning people to salt, killing the first born male children in Egypt, and so on. The Tanakh does not have the Christian "Satan" in it so I'm pretty sure he was not talking about him here. Same thing goes with what is in Amos and Lamentations

    Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
    Amos 3:6 KJV

    Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
    Lamentations 3:38 KJV

    Modern translations take out the word evil and replace it with words like calamity.
    Last edited by Moon Ronin; 07-05-2018 at 09:42 AM.
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  4. #7234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    I've read the entire bible, and I get something completely different out of it. The evil that Isaiah is talking about is not "moral" evil (that comes from man), but more Gods punishment type evil... floods, fire balls out of the sky that destroy people, banishment, turning people to salt, killing the first born male children in Egypt, and so on. The Tanakh does not have the Christian "Satan" in it so I'm pretty sure he was not talking about him here. Same thing goes with what is in Amos and Lamentations

    Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
    Amos 3:6 KJV

    Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
    Lamentations 3:38 KJV

    Modern translations take out the word evil and replace it with words like calamity.
    I guess you could look at it that way. That it's a righteous evil (I know some will say that doesn't make sense), wherein God punishes people by His righteousness.

    Also, the *events* that took place in Job happened between Genesis and Exodus. Most experts say it happened towards the end of Genesis, some right after Genesis. So even though the book of Job was placed further down in the Torah and bible, Moses was the author of Job, so Isaiah would definitely know it and therefore know about Satan.
    Last edited by The Whovian; 07-08-2018 at 12:31 PM.
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    "I am a mad man with a box!"--- The Doctor

    Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life. He that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die."--- John 11:25-26

  5. #7235
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    Today's devotion:

    THE END OF BABYLON
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue.../devotions/08/
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    "I am a mad man with a box!"--- The Doctor

    Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life. He that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die."--- John 11:25-26

  6. #7236
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    "I know the resurrection is a fact, and Watergate proved it to me. How? Because 12 men testified they had seen Jesus raised from the dead, then they proclaimed that truth for 40 years, never once denying it. Every one was beaten, tortured, stoned and put in prison. They would not have endured that if it were not true. Watergate embroiled 12 of the most powerful men in the world-and they couldn't keep a lie for three weeks. You're telling me 12 apostles could keep a lie for 40 years? Absolutely impossible." - Charles Colson
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    "I am a mad man with a box!"--- The Doctor

    Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life. He that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die."--- John 11:25-26

  7. #7237
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    "If a thing is free to be good, it is also free to be bad. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having."--C.S. lewis
    Favorite Artists Right Now: Ivan Reis, Andrea Sorrentino, Stuart Immonen, Jason Fabok, Olivier Coipel, Nick Dragotta, Kim Jacinto, Patrick Gleason, Jorge Jimenez, Greg Capullo, Jerome Opena, Steve McNiven, Kev Walker, Steve Epting, Sean Murphy.

    "I am a mad man with a box!"--- The Doctor

    Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life. He that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die."--- John 11:25-26

  8. #7238
    formerly edhopper Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    "If a thing is free to be good, it is also free to be bad. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having."--C.S. lewis
    Still doesn't explain why God allows the free will of an evil person to take away the free will of a good one.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Still doesn't explain why God allows the free will of an evil person to take away the free will of a good one.
    Because if God stepped in and stopped every bad thing from happening to us, then we would live in a perfect world--a paradise like the Garden of Eden. Since we are sinners, we no longer have the right to live in a world that is a paradise. BUT, when Jesus returns after the tribulation, there will be a new world and new heaven and we will then all live in a paradise.
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    "I am a mad man with a box!"--- The Doctor

    Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life. He that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die."--- John 11:25-26

  10. #7240
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    Today's devotion:

    WEEPING IN MOAB
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue.../devotions/09/
    Favorite Artists Right Now: Ivan Reis, Andrea Sorrentino, Stuart Immonen, Jason Fabok, Olivier Coipel, Nick Dragotta, Kim Jacinto, Patrick Gleason, Jorge Jimenez, Greg Capullo, Jerome Opena, Steve McNiven, Kev Walker, Steve Epting, Sean Murphy.

    "I am a mad man with a box!"--- The Doctor

    Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life. He that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die."--- John 11:25-26

  11. #7241
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    I guess you could look at it that way. That it's a righteous evil (I know some will say that doesn't make sense), wherein God punishes people by His righteousness.

    Also, the *events* that took place in Job happened between Genesis and Exodus. Most experts say it happened towards the end of Genesis, some right after Genesis. So even though the book of Job was placed further down in the Torah and bible, Moses was the author of Job, so Isaiah would definitely know it and therefore know about Satan.
    Jewish scholars and some Christian scholars dispute the claim that Satan is in the Hebrew Bible. The actual Satan is no where in the book of Isaiah, actually the Old Testament that makes up well over 2/3 of the of the Christian bible the word is only there slightly less than a hand full of times and where it is it is "the satan" not and not "Satan" which there is a difference. Yet he is the big bad guy of the bible. The Jewish view on Job is very different than the Christians and its the book that many like to point out as proof that the supernatural adversary of God exist but it does not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Still doesn't explain why God allows the free will of an evil person to take away the free will of a good one.
    I'm an agnostic but have a great interests in religion especially the Abrahamic ones and this has been a recurring answer that I get from that type of questions by people of Jewish, Christian, and Islamic faith.

    "Free will" is mainly a spiritual term when it come to God. You can either can either follow the "righteous" path or not. That's it. So no one can really take that "free will" away by locking you up or even killing you. As to why things like the Holocaust and such are permitted by God, because they are deeds of man on earth, man allows is. Those with a spiritual oneness with God and follow his path (requirements depend on which faith) are allowed into heaven for eternity, so the suffering done to them on earth will not even be a memory and those that do the evil will be cast into Hell, nothingness, or completely be gone forever, (depends on what they believe). The major focus in these religions is to gain entrance into the next life free of pain and suffering.

    The Epicurus quote (who rejected any notion of an afterlife) would be argued by a person of faith that he only looked at it one dimensional i.e. this earth with out looking to the other dimensions. They would contend that with the choice God gives people that he will end evil for them completely in heaven if they follow his path. Thus God is both willing and able to end evil, people just have to earn it, making him omnipotent. If he made the world a perfect place how would he know who are his true followers... see Job above. Personally I do like Epicureanism idea of you only have one life so enjoy it with out the fear of death, because you won't know you died because you'll be dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    God is omniscient. He knew that people would sin. He knew exactly how the universe would turn out when he created it - so what we got is exactly what he designed.
    Actually my take on this is that if we take the Christian teachings at their word - that God is omnipotent and omniscient - then God is not good. He knows what is good, but doesn't do it.
    Time is a crazy concept, Newton to Einstein to Hawking with many in-between redirecting the idea that we have of time. Between the Quantum theory and Einstein's Relativity Theory the view of what "time" is can be very complex, to compound that we at this moment have no way to properly combine the two theories. Our understanding of time is limited so our understanding of omniscient would be also limited. The universe's existence is finite having a beginning and an end A to B. Now does time move along a liner path or in a wave like in partial in quantum mechanics to connect the point? According to Feynman and Hawking its the latter. So God would not only know the beginning and the end (points A and B) but every possible way to connect them (an infinite number) also. So the idea is not that God knows what choice I will make tomorrow but that God knows what choices I'll have tomorrow and the result of each and it is my free will to make the choice. For as he knows what good is but doesn't do it. As explained above he will do good for those that follow him in the seconded life (requirements may very)

    To note the idea for "original sin" or being born in sin is not shared between all Abrahamic religions, Its not even shared by all Christian denominations.
    Last edited by Moon Ronin; 07-10-2018 at 12:53 PM.
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  12. #7242
    Astonishing Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    Because if God stepped in and stopped every bad thing from happening to us, then we would live in a perfect world--a paradise like the Garden of Eden. Since we are sinners, we no longer have the right to live in a world that is a paradise. BUT, when Jesus returns after the tribulation, there will be a new world and new heaven and we will then all live in a paradise.
    I will be honest here. I do not think you can have free will and veto it every time it results in a bad choice by which I mean not just a genuine mistake but a self-serving choice. Then it isn't free will at all. That doesn't really confront the problem of an "evil" person's free will taking precedence over an innocent's free will but it's unfortunately true that, within the context of the belief system or in almost any context for that matter, free will isn't really free will if you aren't, well, free to make the choice you want to make.
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  13. #7243
    Astonishing Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    "If a thing is free to be good, it is also free to be bad. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having."--C.S. lewis
    A couple of other fun quotes from Lewis I remember though a bit off-topic.

    “His Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to Him, but not nonsense. This is no limit to His power. If you choose to say, ‘God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it,’ you have not succeeded in saying anything about God: meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix to them the two other words, 'God can.' It remains true that all things are possible with God: the intrinsic impossibilities are not things but nonentities. It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of His creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because His power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.”

    ― C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

    Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
    C. S. Lewis

    “Those who cannot conceive Friendship as a substantive love but only as a disguise or elaboration of Eros betray the fact that they have never had a Friend. The rest of us know that though we can have erotic love and friendship for the same person yet in some ways nothing is less like a Friendship than a love-affair. Lovers are always talking to one another about their love; Friends hardly ever about their Friendship. Lovers are normally face to face, absorbed in each other; Friends, side by side, absorbed in some common interest. Above all, Eros (while it lasts) is necessarily between two only. But two, far from being the necessary number for Friendship, is not even the best. And the reason for this is important.
    ... In each of my friends there is something that only some other friend can fully bring out. By myself I am not large enough to call the whole man into activity; I want other lights than my own to show all his facets... Hence true Friendship is the least jealous of loves. Two friends delight to be joined by a third, and three by a fourth, if only the newcomer is qualified to become a real friend. They can then say, as the blessed souls say in Dante, 'Here comes one who will augment our loves.' For in this love 'to divide is not to take away.”
    ― C.S. Lewis, The Four Loves
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  14. #7244
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    A couple of other fun quotes from Lewis I remember though a bit off-topic.

    “His Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to Him, but not nonsense. This is no limit to His power. If you choose to say, ‘God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it,’ you have not succeeded in saying anything about God: meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix to them the two other words, 'God can.' It remains true that all things are possible with God: the intrinsic impossibilities are not things but nonentities. It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of His creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because His power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.”

    ― C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

    Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
    C. S. Lewis

    “Those who cannot conceive Friendship as a substantive love but only as a disguise or elaboration of Eros betray the fact that they have never had a Friend. The rest of us know that though we can have erotic love and friendship for the same person yet in some ways nothing is less like a Friendship than a love-affair. Lovers are always talking to one another about their love; Friends hardly ever about their Friendship. Lovers are normally face to face, absorbed in each other; Friends, side by side, absorbed in some common interest. Above all, Eros (while it lasts) is necessarily between two only. But two, far from being the necessary number for Friendship, is not even the best. And the reason for this is important.
    ... In each of my friends there is something that only some other friend can fully bring out. By myself I am not large enough to call the whole man into activity; I want other lights than my own to show all his facets... Hence true Friendship is the least jealous of loves. Two friends delight to be joined by a third, and three by a fourth, if only the newcomer is qualified to become a real friend. They can then say, as the blessed souls say in Dante, 'Here comes one who will augment our loves.' For in this love 'to divide is not to take away.”
    ― C.S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    Thank you for posting those. C.S. Lewis is one of the guys I would have loved to meet and talk with.
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    "I am a mad man with a box!"--- The Doctor

    Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life. He that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die."--- John 11:25-26

  15. #7245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    Jewish scholars and some Christian scholars dispute the claim that Satan is in the Hebrew Bible. The actual Satan is no where in the book of Isaiah, actually the Old Testament that makes up well over 2/3 of the of the Christian bible the word is only there slightly less than a hand full of times and where it is it is "the satan" not and not "Satan" which there is a difference. Yet he is the big bad guy of the bible. The Jewish view on Job is very different than the Christians and its the book that many like to point out as proof that the supernatural adversary of God exist but it does not.
    I never said Satan was in the book of Isaiah. I said he was in the book of Job, which chronologically fits at the end of Genesis or right after it. Therefore, Isaiah (who was a Hebrew male who studied the scrolls) would have known about Job's life and the story involving Satan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    I will be honest here. I do not think you can have free will and veto it every time it results in a bad choice by which I mean not just a genuine mistake but a self-serving choice. Then it isn't free will at all. That doesn't really confront the problem of an "evil" person's free will taking precedence over an innocent's free will but it's unfortunately true that, within the context of the belief system or in almost any context for that matter, free will isn't really free will if you aren't, well, free to make the choice you want to make.
    Well said Powerboy
    Favorite Artists Right Now: Ivan Reis, Andrea Sorrentino, Stuart Immonen, Jason Fabok, Olivier Coipel, Nick Dragotta, Kim Jacinto, Patrick Gleason, Jorge Jimenez, Greg Capullo, Jerome Opena, Steve McNiven, Kev Walker, Steve Epting, Sean Murphy.

    "I am a mad man with a box!"--- The Doctor

    Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life. He that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die."--- John 11:25-26

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