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  1. #5761
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    Actually, you're right in both aspects. If you have not heard the gospel or have faith in Jesus, then you are not saved. But you're also right in that who gets saved is ultimately up to God because He is the one who will judge all of us. And our finite mind cannot fathom His ways.
    Thanks brother! Have you ever read the Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis? He tackled the issue in there, by having people who died get a second chance. Fictional of course, but an elegant and comforting answer to the question.
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  2. #5762
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Thanks brother! Have you ever read the Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis? He tackled the issue in there, by having people who died get a second chance. Fictional of course, but an elegant and comforting answer to the question.
    I haven't, no. I just bought his book "Mere Christianity", but I haven't read it yet.
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  3. #5763
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    Not sure what you mean by this



    If you're referring to babies who die before being born, they go to Heaven.
    Pretty sure he is asking about the Jewish people and that they are his chosen ones as said before Jesus was sent "...only to the lost sheep of Israel.

    I believe that second part is his talking about the billions of people that have lived and died after the death and resurrection of Christ who have never heard of the name... and those that came before I guess could be added too.
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  4. #5764
    Looney Toon Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalak View Post
    I'd still like to know if the belief that murder is wrong is a wholly christian one.
    Anything that is in the Old Testament predates Christianity.
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  5. #5765
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Thanks brother! Have you ever read the Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis? He tackled the issue in there, by having people who died get a second chance. Fictional of course, but an elegant and comforting answer to the question.
    I have read it - it's a very strange, but often beautiful, book. I prefer Screwtape for Lewis philosophical/ethical/fantastical writing (it's much funnier and strangely enough has more tension/plot), but Divorce has some really solid stuff, at least from a neo-Platonist perspective. I personally think he was not completely preaching a purgatorial theology (though it's clear that he personally thought it was appealing), but used it more as a symbol of the changes we need to make here on earth.
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  6. #5766
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalak View Post
    I guess I wasn't clear enough (Judaeo-Christian), but at least you seem to be in the Yes camp when it comes to the question.
    If the belief is that all human life is descendant of Noah and his sons then it is also safe to say that the descendants of Noah and there sons are also founders and members of other religions bringing with it its teaching. To a bible purest Genesis is the start of man kind so also would begin the morality of man given by God... the questions was answered way before you asked it.
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  7. #5767
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I have read it - it's a very strange, but often beautiful, book. I prefer Screwtape for Lewis philosophical/ethical/fantastical writing (it's much funnier and strangely enough has more tension/plot), but Divorce has some really solid stuff, at least from a neo-Platonist perspective. I personally think he was not completely preaching a purgatorial theology (though it's clear that he personally thought it was appealing), but used it more as a symbol of the changes we need to make here on earth.
    I can't deny a little Neoplatonism in my thinking. People get wrapped up in phenomena too much sometimes, overlooking the fact that its all transitory. A rich man goes into the grave the same as anyone else - they can't take it with them.

    The book is good as a symbolism of the human struggle with earthly possessions. Plus it has a nice commentary on various historical figures built in.

    Plus Lewis' reluctance to accept the finality of a black and white heaven/hell cosmology is ours as well.
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  8. #5768
    Postin' since Aug '05 Dalak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Anything that is in the Old Testament predates Christianity.
    I did clarify later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    If the belief is that all human life is descendant of Noah and his sons then it is also safe to say that the descendants of Noah and there sons are also founders and members of other religions bringing with it its teaching. To a bible purest Genesis is the start of man kind so also would begin the morality of man given by God... the questions was answered way before you asked it.
    The original question was asked here in response when my claim that the basics of all the major religions (aka Be a Good Person, etc) were functionally the same was claimed to be false. If you are saying all the morals of those religions come from the Judaeo-Christian God then it seems that the claim was truer than I'd originally thought.

  9. #5769
    Fantastic Member Psimitar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    If the belief is that all human life is descendant of Noah and his sons then it is also safe to say that the descendants of Noah and there sons are also founders and members of other religions bringing with it its teaching. To a bible purest Genesis is the start of man kind so also would begin the morality of man given by God... the questions was answered way before you asked it.
    I think the narrative of the Tower of Babel confirms that it didn't take long for the descendents of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japeth to abandon God and rebel against him. The writings of Josepheus further illustrate that Nimrod built the tower in such a way that it would be able to withstand another Flood. So even in their rebellion, mankind knew who God was and expected him to render judgment for their disobedience.

    One thing you see with all other religions (except maybe Islam as it is monotheistic) is that they embrace the idea of the consciousness of Being rather than the Creator/creature distinction. They see the universe coming into existence was either an act of procreation or transmutation as opposed to creation. This allows mankind to think of himself and "god(s)" as the same since they all come from the same place. This idea incorporates Darwinism and evolution as well.

  10. #5770
    Looney Toon Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalak View Post
    I did clarify later.
    Sorry, I missed that.
    "One may be intelligent, and a Nazi. Then one is not decent. One may be decent and a Nazi. Then one is not intelligent. And one may be intelligent and decent. Then one is not a Nazi"
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  11. #5771
    Mighty Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    Yes, Jesus did give the apostles the Great Commission to preach "to all nations". Matthew 28:16-20--
    There was another commission first, though. In Matthew, we find this in chapter 10, where we're told:

    These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

    The people he instructs them to reach out to are exclusive.

    Not true.
    Only it is true. Does your translation of Matthew, for example, say something different?

    He clearly states that he has been sent for the lost sheep of Israel first.
    'Only' (and 'but') is not the same as 'first'.

    Matthew 15:24

    New International Version
    He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

    New Living Translation
    Then Jesus said to the woman, "I was sent only to help God's lost sheep--the people of Israel."

    English Standard Version
    He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

    Berean Study Bible
    He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

    Berean Literal Bible
    And answering He said, "I was sent only to those being lost sheep of the house of Israel."

    New American Standard Bible
    But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

    King James Bible
    But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    He states this many times throughout the Gospels.
    He never says anything like that, though, not until the purported 'Great Commission'. Hence the question and my references to what we are told both within the Bible and through historical record - the apostles did not actively preach to the Gentiles. So did he really gather the 12 and tell them to preach only to the tribes of Israel only to then regather them and tell them to start preaching to everyone... only for them to not heed his instruction?

    The good news was to be preached to the Jews first, then the Gentiles. And in the example of Him calling the woman a dog, he was simply saying that she was "spiritually unclean". He was testing her faith and teaching His disciples an important lesson. Her response to Him was one of faith and because of that, Jesus rewarded her.
    How would one who was accepting of him be 'spiritually unclean'? Ritually unclean, sure, but she was the most accepting person there and he clearly knew that. She believed him to be the Son of David, the Messiah, etc, and you've been going on about how belief in Christ being your Lord is what saves you, so how is this woman 'spiritually unclean'... and you're not?

    Similarly with the Roman who came to him for him to cure his servant. Ritually, he may be impure, but his belief is wholly apparent and is accepted of him.


    Taking into consideration the actions and preachings of the chosen 12 in the first few years after the crucifixion, their reluctance to reach out to the Gentiles (and to let go of the Law), and that the Gospels were written, at the earliest, towards the end of Paul's ministry, there is actual basis (and a lot of scholarly debate) as to questioning the authenticity of 'The Great Commission' and whether it was a second generation 'insertion'.


    (Separately, with regards to the Lost Sheep, there is also debate as to whether this is solely in reference to those of the two tribes who have lost their way or also includes the ten who were 'divorced' when the North and South Kingdoms were split)

  12. #5772
    Mighty Member Iron_Legion87's Avatar
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    This scripture stuck with me today in my devotional

    Galatians 1:10

    "Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am i trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ."

  13. #5773
    Mighty Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron_Legion87 View Post
    This scripture stuck with me today in my devotional

    Galatians 1:10

    "Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am i trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ."
    Have you ever wondered what the 'other Gospel' he's referring to was/is? Who it was who was preaching something contrary to Paul's teachings? (verses 6 to 9)

    For me, angels cannot and will not do anything contrary to God's instruction/permission etc, so Paul's cursing of one (potentially) just comes across as hyperbole.

  14. #5774
    Mighty Member Iron_Legion87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    Have you ever wondered what the 'other Gospel' he's referring to was/is? Who it was who was preaching something contrary to Paul's teachings? (verses 6 to 9)

    For me, angels cannot and will not do anything contrary to God's instruction/permission etc, so Paul's cursing of one (potentially) just comes across as hyperbole.
    I wondered that as well and haven't come to a solid answer. I just assumed he meant others that practiced other religions and worshiped other Gods. But I could be wrong.

  15. #5775
    Mighty Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron_Legion87 View Post
    I wondered that as well and haven't come to a solid answer. I just assumed he meant others that practiced other religions and worshiped other Gods. But I could be wrong.
    I think it's directly tied to the differences he had with James and the Jerusalem Church. I don't think he would be callings of other faiths 'gospels'.

    Basically, I think the 'gospels' and teachings he is telling them to avoid are what later came to be known as Arianism (among other things) and was one of the reasons for Councils being needed and the 'agreed' upon Bible being compiled.

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