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  1. #3466
    Veteran Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    That's the danger of trying to present anyone as the spokesperson for any "group" -- especially one as large as "African-Americans" (or "mutants").

    We see the same kind of nonsense whenever someone like Al Sharpton speaks on an issue -- somehow all "blacks" are held responsible for his words, while more moderate voices are often completely disregarded because they aren't sensational enough for the media.

    No one assumes David Duke or Donald Trump or Bernie Sanders speaks for all white people, so there shouldn't be a double-standard when there comes to any other "race" of people.

    That's why I don't have a problem with people like Whoopi or Stacy having a platform -- if anything, we need more "voices" out there, not less. I think it's also key that Whoopi wants to be seen as "American" but likewise explains why channels like BET exist (due to past and present discrimination).

    Many people will criticize BET without realizing the BET is white-owned (Viacom), employs people of all races (I knew an Asian guy from USC that worked there and loved it), and gives BET Awards to people of all races as well (Sam Smith just won Best New Artist, while three other white people were nominated for awards).

    The fact that Stacy could appear on BET and then criticize it's existence speaks volumes about the hypocrisy of her argument and I think that's where a lot of the backlash comes from -- in comparison to Whoopi, that is, who said the same thing about being American without attacking BET or Black History Month in the process (as a parallel to Alex attacking the term "mutant").

    Are Latino-Americans any less American for having access to Univision and Telemundo? How about all of the Asian and Persian language channels we see all over the country -- does that make those who watch them any less American?

    How far does it go -- should we likewise criticize Asian, Hispanic and Native American heritage months? "Irish" Saint Patrick's Day? "Mexican" and "Italian" and "Chinese" restaurants? "Swedish" furniture stores? "Japanese" history museums?

    Granted, I'm exaggerating here, but it is important to note that celebrating or sharing your culture with others is not the same thing as discriminating against them.
    Some good points, for sure. Very problematic to treat one person's opinion as representative of a larger group. Although I suppose there are examples where the person is trying to be a representative, and other examples where the media/society decides to label a person as a representative of a group.

    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    I think if he were on one of the other Avengers teams it wouldn't be a problem, but he's specifically on the mutant/human unity team and in story the group is publicly known as such. If he didn't want his mutant background to be discussed then why agree to be on the team? It's like how in real life people will organize straight/gay alliances or inter-faith events to show how folks can get along. But if you don't want to talk about being Jewish in a Christian neighborhood, then why are you the spokeman for our group?
    I don't know if Alex was asking for the fact that he was a mutant be ignored in discussions so much as he asked for the label not to be used as a descriptor for him. In Whoopi's case, she acknowledged she's African American at the start of her conversation, but challenged the accuracy or usefulness of that label.

  2. #3467
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    I don't know if Alex was asking for the fact that he was a mutant be ignored in discussions so much as he asked for the label not to be used as a descriptor for him. In Whoopi's case, she acknowledged she's African American at the start of her conversation, but challenged the accuracy or usefulness of that label.
    But he was speaking not as an individual but as a spokesman for a group that's deliberately using the word. That's why I think it's a contradiction

  3. #3468
    Veteran Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    But he was speaking not as an individual but as a spokesman for a group that's deliberately using the word. That's why I think it's a contradiction
    I don't know. I don't have the issue handy, so I could be wrong...but wasn't he speaking as the leader of the Avengers Unity Team? I guess that carries more weight than simply being an individual speaking his mind, but I don't think he was actually speaking on behalf of mutants everywhere. I do think that's how his comments tended to be treated, but I think that's more the fault of those who chose to interpret them that way, no?

    Taking the example of Whoopi...she never once claimed to be speaking on behalf of all black people. Certainly as a famous actor and the host of a popular morning TV show, she has a platform to reach a ton of people, so her opinion can be seen as carrying more weight than the average person. But I don't think it makes her the spokesman of the black community. I'm sure some people might see it that way, but that's their choice, right?

  4. #3469
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    I don't know. I don't have the issue handy, so I could be wrong...but wasn't he speaking as the leader of the Avengers Unity Team? I guess that carries more weight than simply being an individual speaking his mind, but I don't think he was actually speaking on behalf of mutants everywhere. I do think that's how his comments tended to be treated, but I think that's more the fault of those who chose to interpret them that way, no?

    Taking the example of Whoopi...she never once claimed to be speaking on behalf of all black people. Certainly as a famous actor and the host of a popular morning TV show, she has a platform to reach a ton of people, so her opinion can be seen as carrying more weight than the average person. But I don't think it makes her the spokesman of the black community. I'm sure some people might see it that way, but that's their choice, right?
    Sure. People have the right to identify or not identify however they choose. But specifically in the case of this comic, Alex willingly joins the mutant/human team...the whole point of the group is to identify as a mutant, but he comes out and says don't label me a mutant. That's what I think doesn't work

  5. #3470
    Veteran Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    Sure. People have the right to identify or not identify however they choose. But specifically in the case of this comic, Alex willingly joins the mutant/human team...the whole point of the group is to identify as a mutant, but he comes out and says don't label me a mutant. That's what I think doesn't work
    Fair enough. I think there is a distinction between a thing and the labels used to describe the thing. But it can often be a very fine distinction.

    I get what you're saying though. His presence in the team is due to him being a mutant, but then he rejects that label. It is a bit contradictory.

  6. #3471

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    I like how the interracial romance between Peggy and Dr. Jason Wilkes is being handled in Season 2 of Agent Carter.

  7. #3472
    CBR's GOOD FAIRY Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    I think diversity of opinion is equally important, if not more so, than other types of diversity, and yet I think it was one of the first casualties in any discussion of Alex's speech. There became one prevailing opinion that was seen as the correct one to have, and any deviation from that opinion was met with varying degrees of scorn, judgment, and derision.

    I think there are valid criticisms to be made about Alex's speech, and I think many made them. Your example of Kitty's criticism is an excellent one, and even better because it comes from a character in the fiction. But I also think his speech has merits...and although many pointed them out, they tended to get shouted down and then generalized as "anti-diversity", which I thought was a shame.

    I suppose it's just an example of how debate in general, and in the US in particular, has become more and more extreme...there are only two sides, and the other side is the devil, and anyone in between shall be yelled at by both sides.

    So hearing Whoopi express the same sentiments as Alex almost verbatim was very interesting. I don't think her stance was criticized heavily or challenged. In fact, the crowd seemed to be all for it.

    I don't know if that implies comic readers as being overly sensitive on the topic, or if it's more a question of the source of the opinion or what.
    Alex's speech preached assimilation; and the reason it became this huge issue is very simple:
    a) it's fair to say, based on Remender's reaction, Remender (a str8, white guy who doesn't have first hand knowledge of what it means to be a minority) didn't actually mean the speech to preach assimilation. Which means the speech is very flawed
    b) Remender (a str8, white guy) when it was pointed out by actual minorities (who, it's fair to assume, have a little more knowledge on the subject through living it) why the speech is preaching assimilation, not unity; told people to drown in hobo piss. Which very much implies he doesn't actually think he has anything to learn about diversity (which he clearly does), nor does it imply he's willing to learn when the time comes.

    Alex was on a team about mutant unity. As others have pointed out, no-one accepts that role as leader on a team designed to tackle the issues of mutant/human relations, by then spouting assimilation. It makes no sense. The speech was a failure because it wasn't intended to say what it did. It's that simple. While diversity of opinion is good, Remender was (through Alex) preaching something he didn't mean to preach (and patently didn't understand the nuances of). I would have LOVED IT if Remender understood the issue and was intentionally having Alex show his inexperience and ignorance, but he wasn't. He simply missed the mark, and then reacted VERY badly. And I don't think anyone on CBR will forget his meltdown over the next 10 years.
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  8. #3473
    Veteran Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Alex's speech preached assimilation; and the reason it became this huge issue is very simple:
    a) it's fair to say, based on Remender's reaction, Remender (a str8, white guy who doesn't have first hand knowledge of what it means to be a minority) didn't actually mean the speech to preach assimilation. Which means the speech is very flawed
    b) Remender (a str8, white guy) when it was pointed out by actual minorities (who, it's fair to assume, have a little more knowledge on the subject through living it) why the speech is preaching assimilation, not unity; told people to drown in hobo piss. Which very much implies he doesn't actually think he has anything to learn about diversity (which he clearly does), nor does it imply he's willing to learn when the time comes.

    Alex was on a team about mutant unity. As others have pointed out, no-one accepts that role as leader on a team designed to tackle the issues of mutant/human relations, by then spouting assimilation. It makes no sense. The speech was a failure because it wasn't intended to say what it did. It's that simple. While diversity of opinion is good, Remender was (through Alex) preaching something he didn't mean to preach (and patently didn't understand the nuances of). I would have LOVED IT if Remender understood the issue and was intentionally having Alex show his inexperience and ignorance, but he wasn't. He simply missed the mark, and then reacted VERY badly. And I don't think anyone on CBR will forget his meltdown over the next 10 years.
    Sure, these are alm points we've discussed before. I don't think his reaction was to all critics, but instead was aimed at a few trollish types. It's tricky....we hold these creators to high standards of behavior online, and they have to be super careful of what they say and how they say it and to whom. And on one hand, that makes total sense....it's a perfectly reasonable expectation in general. Unfortunately, the same standard is not applied to fans. They are free to post anonymously and criticize using hyperbole and gross exaggeration often just to provoke a response.

    So until comics fans start behaving with the same level of caution and respect, I'm willing to give the creators a little slack when it comes to that kind of stuff. They're people, too...and if "X-fan4life7613" can tell him in Twitter that his story "sucked te donkey ballz" then I don't blame him for lashing out.

    Agreed that he overreacted, and I think once he realized the full situation he revised his stance and clarified things, as most reasonable folks would do. But I also think folks overreacted to his reaction.

    But....this has all been covered before, and at length. I opened my comments by saying that Alex's speech was flawed, and I acknowledged that there is reasonable criticism of it.

    Why I brought this up again after so long is that Whoopi Goldberg recently made a speech on the View, and the sentiments of the speech had a lot in common with Havok's/Remender's.

    So I am curious how people view Whoopi's comments more so than reiterating how they feel about Alex's. What do you think about what she said? Is she preaching assimilation? Or maybe a lesser form of it? Is she a self hating Aftican-American? Or is she simply rejecting a label she doesn't feel accurately represents her? Is she perhaps callin for a change in the commonly accepted vernacular, as has happened many times over the years, for a variety of minorities.

    Care to share your thoughts on that?

  9. #3474
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    Why I brought this up again after so long is that Whoopi Goldberg recently made a speech on the View, and the sentiments of the speech had a lot in common with Havok's/Remender's.

    So I am curious how people view Whoopi's comments more so than reiterating how they feel about Alex's. What do you think about what she said? Is she preaching assimilation? Or maybe a lesser form of it? Is she a self hating Aftican-American? Or is she simply rejecting a label she doesn't feel accurately represents her? Is she perhaps callin for a change in the commonly accepted vernacular, as has happened many times over the years, for a variety of minorities.

    Care to share your thoughts on that?
    She like Havok can say that all she likes. In a perfect world that would be true.

    We live in REALITY.

    A reality where anything dealing with blacks-OBAMA gets blamed. Any time a black male is arrested or killed-he's Obama's son-something I never heard said about Bush or any other white or even other minority groups.

    Trolls have wanted someone to be the defacto black person that will take every blame and insult or represent why blacks are inferior or whatever.

    DC has been trying that with Cyborg by getting rid of all the other blacks that we have grown up with.

    Marvel to their credit have not done that.

  10. #3475
    Veteran Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    She like Havok can say that all she likes. In a perfect world that would be true.

    We live in REALITY.

    A reality where anything dealing with blacks-OBAMA gets blamed. Any time a black male is arrested or killed-he's Obama's son-something I never heard said about Bush or any other white or even other minority groups.

    Trolls have wanted someone to be the defacto black person that will take every blame and insult or represent why blacks are inferior or whatever.

    DC has been trying that with Cyborg by getting rid of all the other blacks that we have grown up with.

    Marvel to their credit have not done that.
    Whoopie Goldberg lives in reality, too. Certainly more so than Havok.

    And I don't think President Obama gets the blame for any negative things any black American does. I mean, I'm sure there are whack-jobs out there who like to say stuff like that, but it's far from a common opinion. Unless you mean that one specific instance of Trayvon Martin, where Obama said that it was upsetting because Trayvon "could have been his son"? Is that what you mean? If so, I don't know if I see that as a problem.

    I'm not sure I'm following your point about DC, but that may be because I don't read any of their books anymore. Not DCU books anyway. So I have no idea what they're doing with Cyborg or almost any of their other characters, really.

  11. #3476
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    DC's actually fixing some of the problems they had with nu52 Cyborg now under David Walker's writing. The comic isn't great but it's ok. Beyond the superhero aspects, we're seeing Cyborg's relationship with other african-americans. There's his relationship with Sarah. Plus his parents ( which we don't always see in comics)

  12. #3477
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    Although Whoopi may have caped for some questionable persons, she grew up during the civil rights era and when push came to shove at least never denied or refused to be called black.

    Unlike Raven Simone who doesn't want to be called black or gay...

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