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  1. #1201
    Senior Member Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    The page of interest would be Maximum Comics celebrating 75 yeas of love.
    Billy & Teddy are shown as is Northstar and Kyle. Billy & Teddy are kissing but it's censored. In fact they aren't even in costume.
    Do you have a scan? How was it censored???

  2. #1202

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorendiac View Post
    I sometimes get the feeling that it often works this way:

    1. The writer on a Marvel book says to himself: "I really, really, really want these two characters to get married. The problem is that if I take a few years to make that romantic subplot 'gradually' and 'naturally' build up to the point of wedding bells, I may well get kicked off the book before it's time to write the wedding. Or my current editor, who is willing to rubber-stamp the marriage idea, may well get replaced by another editor who will have the opposite viewpoint and will refuse to approve the script. Therefore, I must make the marriage happen quickly in order to nail it down as part of the ongoing continuity before anyone else can come along and derail the idea!"

    2. So the writer follows through on his plan. All of a sudden, these characters are married!

    3. What the writer didn't anticipate, but probably should have, is that his sincere attempt to make "a Significant and Permanent Change in this hero's continuity" is probably going to fail anyway! After his run is over, someone else (a new writer, a new editor, or both) takes over the task of shaping those characters' destinies, and still hates the idea of Character A and Character B being "a happily married couple" -- so they don't let the fact that "it was a canonical wedding" stop them from doing what they think is "right!" They find some way to break up the marriage (or retcon it out of existence), basically creating an excuse for everyone to pretend it never happened when they are writing future scripts about one or the other of those characters.

    Inspiring, isn't it?
    That's still a step above not letting them get married at all (Batwoman).

    The problem is that most mainstream comic books don't know how to handle marriage (Peter Parker/Mary Jane, Scott Summers/Madelyne Pryor) or even most relationships for that matter since the women often get "neutered" or otherwise "tamed" in the process (Paige, Emma, X-23, etc).

    Ultimately, these books are often written as male power fantasies where the women are treated like trophies or mere plot devices. Once they have served that purpose said women are often far less interesting as characters than they were prior (having come to be defined by said relationship rather than as individuals), while the male in the relationship gains in status as an "alpha male" who can move on to other women without suffering the same fate (Cyclops being a key example of this).

    I'm not so certain that any relationship in a Marvel book -- LGBT or otherwise -- is something to aspire to, as most are handled poorly overall: the Rogue/Gambit fiasco is a good example of exactly what I mean. The writers could have easily made that a "successful" relationship after their years of tribulations, but instead opted to drag the drama out to the point of degrading both characters in the process, ultimately with little to no payoff in the end.

    All I'm saying is that you should be careful what you wish for... sometimes less is more when dealing with "love" within the pages of a Marvel/DC comic book.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 09-12-2014 at 07:15 AM.
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  3. #1203

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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    So a free book that would probably help attract readers doesn't mention the girl whose book keeps getting reprinted-Ms Marvel.

    75 top books and no LGBT or black male did anything groundbreaking among those books?
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going to assume that probably there were few to no Latinos, Native Americans or Asians/Asian-Americans mentioned therein either.
    Primus. Kerouac Black. Moon. (Graphics)
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  4. #1204
    Senior Member Lorendiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    That's still a step above not letting them get married at all (Batwoman).

    The problem is that most mainstream comic books don't know how to handle marriage (Peter Parker/Mary Jane, Scott Summers/Madelyne Pryor) or even most relationships for that matter since the women often get "neutered" or otherwise "tamed" in the process (Paige, Emma, X-23, etc).

    Ultimately, these books are often written as male power fantasies where the women are treated like trophies or mere plot devices. Once they have served that purpose said women are often far less interesting as characters than they were prior (having come to be defined by said relationship rather than as individuals), while the male in the relationship gains in status as an "alpha male" who can move on to other women without suffering the same fate (Cyclops being a key example of this).
    The story I've heard is that in the mid-1980s, after Scott Summers had married Madelyne Pryor, Chris Claremont (the main X-Men writer all through the 1980s) was willing to leave it at that. But then Editor-in-Chief Jim Shooter approved someone else's idea to "magically bring back Jean Grey, and reveal 'she didn't really die' during the Dark Phoenix Saga, because that wasn't really the original Jean Grey who went murderously insane," and Chris hated the idea when he first heard about it -- but the decision had been made that Jean and Scott would now be rubbing shoulders all day, every day, in the new "X-Factor" title, which, by definition, meant that Scott would be spending more time onstage with Jean than he would be spending with his own wife, the mother of his infant child!

    I'm just trying to point out the break-up of Scott's first marriage was due more to Editorial Interfence than it was to the X-Men writer having felt all along that Maddie was a perfectly expendable "trophy wife" kind of character who didn't deserve any respect in the long term.

  5. #1205
    Senior Member Tiamatty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Do you have a scan? How was it censored???
    Wiccan's head is entirely covered by a cover with Emma and Namor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorendiac View Post
    I'm just trying to point out the break-up of Scott's first marriage was due more to Editorial Interfence than it was to the X-Men writer having felt all along that Maddie was a perfectly expendable "trophy wife" kind of character who didn't deserve any respect in the long term.
    To be fair, I think Maddie was still meant as a "trophy wife" thing. Claremont originally planned for Jean to survive the Dark Phoenix Saga. That didn't pan out, so I think he created Maddie as a "consolation prize" for Scott.

  6. #1206
    No Mythologies to Follow Imraith Nimphais's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    That's still a step above not letting them get married at all (Batwoman).

    The problem is that most mainstream comic books don't know how to handle marriage (Peter Parker/Mary Jane, Scott Summers/Madelyne Pryor) or even most relationships for that matter since the women often get "neutered" or otherwise "tamed" in the process (Paige, Emma, X-23, etc).

    Ultimately, these books are often written as male power fantasies where the women are treated like trophies or mere plot devices. Once they have served that purpose said women are often far less interesting as characters than they were prior (having come to be defined by said relationship rather than as individuals), while the male in the relationship gains in status as an "alpha male" who can move on to other women without suffering the same fate (Cyclops being a key example of this).

    I'm not so certain that any relationship in a Marvel book -- LGBT or otherwise -- is something to aspire to, as most are handled poorly overall: the Rogue/Gambit fiasco is a good example of exactly what I mean. The writers could have easily made that a "successful" relationship after their years of tribulations, but instead opted to drag the drama out to the point of degrading both characters in the process, ultimately with little to no payoff in the end.

    All I'm saying is that you should be careful what you wish for... sometimes less is more when dealing with "love" within the pages of a Marvel/DC comic book.
    * A resounding round of applause.
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