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  1. #3301
    Veteran Member Tiamatty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    Should she have been a redhead?
    Conway's point is that they should both be the same race. And I think his point actually comes down to one of Hollywood's big problems: Hollywood simply doesn't like to show people of different races as family. They can't be siblings, they can't date, they're only allowed to be friends. Unless the point of a movie is that a black person and a white person are more than just friends, then it simply doesn't happen. So on those rare occasions where a movie does go against that, it stands out as being unusual.

  2. #3302
    Veteran Member Tiamatty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conway View Post
    The director and publicists can try to spin this however they want but when two characters that are established as blood brother and sister are cast as the angry black man, and the white princess hero, I think it shows a bias and studio intervention.
    Uh, I don't think Johnny Storm is going to an "angry black man." Quite the opposite, I get the feeling he'll be a funny party-boy black man.

    It has been made clear that Marvel only screen tested minorities for the role of Nick Fury. So yes, I assumed that the studio "suggested" that one of the FF should be black now without any real proof of that. Still, I don't think it was a huge leap for me to reach that conclusion.
    Well, I'm pretty sure Marvel specifically wanted Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury, because Ultimate Nick Fury was actually based on Samuel L. Jackson. They may have done screen tests for a few other actors, but the role was always Jackson's.

    What I am saying (and have been saying from the first post) is that Sue Storm should have been black. You can attack me as racist all you want and I won't deny I need to improve myself, but not casting a black girl as Sue Storm was a racist move. I think you are lying to yourselves if you think that the studio didn't want a starlet that reminds people of the heroine in Hunger Games or Divergent.
    And this part I somewhat agreed with. I think Trank, coming from a multiracial family, probably did want the Storms to be a multiracial family. But the studio almost certainly did want Sue to be white, as well. Where I think you're wrong is suggesting that Jordan being cast as Johnny was any sort of quota or whatever. That was definitely Trank bringing in an actor he liked working with, for a role he felt Jordan would be a great fit for. Like I said earlier, I'm betting that Jordan as Johnny was one of the first things Trank thought of when he was asked to do Fantastic Four.

    Sue being white was something that was probably pretty much out of his hands. I'd guess it was something he wanted to do anyway, but it doesn't really matter. Reed was always going to be white, since he's the male lead, so Sue was always going to be white, as the male lead's love interest. That's just how Hollywood works, because it is a broken, horrible place filled with backwards, offensive notions.

  3. #3303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conway View Post
    This is a fair argument, and possibly the only one that has been made. I don't deny my cynicism about racial hiring, and it probably is some kind of inherent racism that I am constantly trying to remove from myself. I was born and raised in the whitest place in America and the fact that I was indoctrinated with this attitude is part of the American culture we need to address. Putting one black man in the most aggressive role in a movie isn't going to do that.

    From the very beginning I've said that I'm all for a black Human Torch, but that his sister should be black too. Yes, I have worked with a number of producers and even some directors, and I can tell you that hiring is not the Director's job. I'm not a casting expert, and I'm not privy to the memo's sent from Fox but yes I think there is a bias here. The director and publicists can try to spin this however they want but when two characters that are established as blood brother and sister are cast as the angry black man, and the white princess hero, I think it shows a bias and studio intervention.

    It has been made clear that Marvel only screen tested minorities for the role of Nick Fury. So yes, I assumed that the studio "suggested" that one of the FF should be black now without any real proof of that. Still, I don't think it was a huge leap for me to reach that conclusion.

    What I am saying (and have been saying from the first post) is that Sue Storm should have been black. You can attack me as racist all you want and I won't deny I need to improve myself, but not casting a black girl as Sue Storm was a racist move. I think you are lying to yourselves if you think that the studio didn't want a starlet that reminds people of the heroine in Hunger Games or Divergent.
    Thanks for your very rational reply -- I think we're making progress here in that we seem to have the same basic goal (better representation) but may disagree on why these things haven't happened as of yet.

    In your defense, Marvel did actively seek out a black director (Ava DuVernay) the Black Panther movie, but likewise, it can't be argued that she is not one of the best choices out there in that she is an up and coming director with high visibility and a quality film under her belt. However, the fact that she and Marvel could not reach an agreement points to the reality that "race" is not the primary motivator in this equation, but rather creative control (from both Ava and Marvel's perspective).

    Truthfully, I don't see where there is a problem with that (except I might go with Antoine Fuqua instead of Ava) and I think you'd agree that is the sort of thing you are referring to when you say that "race" plays a factor in hiring in these kinds of situations.

    Marvel has repeatedly shown that if they can't do things on their own terms that -- unless your name is Robert Downey Jr -- they will walk away from the deal, no problem, so "race" is only one factor out of many in the equation, and certainly does not trump profitability nor control of their product and brand.

    Regardless, I don't know that it's the same comparison in that Marvel has openly admitted that they were seeking a "minority" director for the Black Panther movie -- and likewise, that Nick Fury was based on "Samuel Jackson" Fury from the Ultimate line so his casting was basically as accurate as it gets -- but with regards to Jordan, the director simply liked working with him from Chronicle and wanted to bring him on his next project (similar to when Tim Burton works with Depp on many of his films because he likes him as an actor).

    As for Sue being black, I don't see why that should matter. I think the adopted angle is different and it actually makes me interested in seeing how it plays out on screen. Usually the paradigm is that it's a white family adopting a (needy) black kid so playing with that trope is actually a pretty cool idea, in my opinion. Moreover, I've never really seen Johnny Storm as an "angry" character -- "hotheaded" (which I read as "passionate" and "impulsive") and sometimes reckless, but not really angry, so I don't see where the "angry black man" trope fits into said casting.

    Not saying you aren't seeing something that might actually be there, just saying that I don't see it personally, and I respect that you once said you'd rather see a black Reed Richards than a black Johnny Storm just to avoid said stereotype.

    With regards to Sue's casting, again I can't say that I see it, but I also don't see where I could say that you are wrong in wanting to see both siblings being "black" and positing a sensible reason (profitability) with regards to why the studio (Sony) might not have wanted to so do.

  4. #3304
    Overly Opinionated Conway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    Thanks for your very rational reply -- I think we're making progress here in that we seem to have the same basic goal (better representation) but may disagree on why these things haven't happened as of yet.

    In your defense, Marvel did actively seek out a black director (Ava DuVernay) the Black Panther movie, but likewise, it can't be argued that she is not one of the best choices out there in that she is an up and coming director with high visibility and a quality film under her belt. However, the fact that she and Marvel could not reach an agreement points to the reality that "race" is not the primary motivator in this equation, but rather creative control (from both Ava and Marvel's perspective).

    Truthfully, I don't see where there is a problem with that (except I might go with Antoine Fuqua instead of Ava) and I think you'd agree that is the sort of thing you are referring to when you say that "race" plays a factor in hiring in these kinds of situations.

    Marvel has repeatedly shown that if they can't do things on their own terms that -- unless your name is Robert Downey Jr -- they will walk away from the deal, no problem, so "race" is only one factor out of many in the equation, and certainly does not trump profitability nor control of their product and brand.

    Regardless, I don't know that it's the same comparison in that Marvel has openly admitted that they were seeking a "minority" director for the Black Panther movie -- and likewise, that Nick Fury was based on "Samuel Jackson" Fury from the Ultimate line so his casting was basically as accurate as it gets -- but with regards to Jordan, the director simply liked working with him from Chronicle and wanted to bring him on his next project (similar to when Tim Burton works with Depp on many of his films because he likes him as an actor).

    As for Sue being black, I don't see why that should matter. I think the adopted angle is different and it actually makes me interested in seeing how it plays out on screen. Usually the paradigm is that it's a white family adopting a (needy) black kid so playing with that trope is actually a pretty cool idea, in my opinion. Moreover, I've never really seen Johnny Storm as an "angry" character -- "hotheaded" (which I read as "passionate" and "impulsive") and sometimes reckless, but not really angry, so I don't see where the "angry black man" trope fits into said casting.

    Not saying you aren't seeing something that might actually be there, just saying that I don't see it personally, and I respect that you once said you'd rather see a black Reed Richards than a black Johnny Storm just to avoid said stereotype.

    With regards to Sue's casting, again I can't say that I see it, but I also don't see where I could say that you are wrong in wanting to see both siblings being "black" and positing a sensible reason (profitability) with regards to why the studio (Sony) might not have wanted to so do.
    Again, interesting thoughts. I suppose I really should start off with an apology for using the term "angry". Again it is a personal hang up. As someone born with the "risk-taker gene" I find that intelligent aggressive underachievers with big mouths as someone I can identify with, and as I'm sure some of you have noticed I am a very angry person no matter how much I try to hide it with smart-ass comments. I have no reason to believe that Jordan will be playing Johnny Storm as an angry black man and I am very sorry I made that comment.

    I do find it impressive that the director really feels that showing an interracial family will make a difference. I also feel that the choice for black parents adopting Sue is a strong one that paints "minorities" in a positive light. On the other hand an interracial relationship as strong as the one between Reed and Sue would be a much bigger impact. The parenting situation just can't take up as much time as the Fantastic Couple can on screen. It can barely be a side note.

    I simply think it was a great opportunity to cast a young black girl in an important role. To me it feels like a situation where the studio (in this case Sony) went the safe route but is still trying to pat themselves on the back for another casting decision that didn't have as much impact as it could have had with another character (in this case Mr. Fantastic).

    Either way from what I've seen it will still be an enjoyable movie and any attempt (even a self-aggrandizing one) is a step in the right direction.
    It's all just an opinion. Stop taking me so damn seriously.

  5. #3305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conway View Post
    Again, interesting thoughts. I suppose I really should start off with an apology for using the term "angry". Again it is a personal hang up. As someone born with the "risk-taker gene" I find that intelligent aggressive underachievers with big mouths as someone I can identify with, and as I'm sure some of you have noticed I am a very angry person no matter how much I try to hide it with smart-ass comments. I have no reason to believe that Jordan will be playing Johnny Storm as an angry black man and I am very sorry I made that comment.

    I do find it impressive that the director really feels that showing an interracial family will make a difference. I also feel that the choice for black parents adopting Sue is a strong one that paints "minorities" in a positive light. On the other hand an interracial relationship as strong as the one between Reed and Sue would be a much bigger impact. The parenting situation just can't take up as much time as the Fantastic Couple can on screen. It can barely be a side note.

    I simply think it was a great opportunity to cast a young black girl in an important role. To me it feels like a situation where the studio (in this case Sony) went the safe route but is still trying to pat themselves on the back for another casting decision that didn't have as much impact as it could have had with another character (in this case Mr. Fantastic).

    Either way from what I've seen it will still be an enjoyable movie and any attempt (even a self-aggrandizing one) is a step in the right direction.
    Wow, this actually reminds me of a movie.


  6. #3306
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    Quote Originally Posted by leo619 View Post
    Wow, this actually reminds me of a movie.
    Some people have a harder time changing than others, it seems...

    whatchagonnado.jpg

  7. #3307
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    Some people have a harder time changing than others, it seems...

    whatchagonnado.jpg
    LMFAO!! Oh that's low man, he was one of my childhood idols hahaha.

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