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  1. #391
    Rookie Member Grunty's Avatar
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    Oh look new mutant species drama and Decimation all over again.

    How fitting that this comes as follow up to an event which includes an alternate House of M universe. Well lets see how long this will last until some plot device character is created again to solve it?

    Though i doubt Marrow will show up or be mentioned anywhere in the next 5 years, if she is actualy revealed as dead by T-mist i'm gonna laugh, seeing how she wasn't a mutant anymore (even if Nemesis cured her limited lifetime her powers still came as a result of the Morituri Process which is unrelated to the X-gene).

  2. #392
    Elder Member AcesX1X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm View Post
    Proof please.
    proof of what? that he knew he was going to transform innocent people into inhumans against their will?

    Quote Originally Posted by Storm View Post
    Yeah and that's a shitty thing to do but it's not genocide. It also set up a slight civil war since Lash started recruiting Inhumans before Medusa could bring them to Attilan and explain their heritage.

    Still not genocide though.
    i know it's easier for you to deny the facts, but this has already been established under section e. genetics are not the only qualifier to meet this requirement, sorry to tell you. if you disagree, then perhaps the world's nations will change their definition to something you can agree with. or perhaps not.

  3. #393
    Shou-Lao The Bitch Dragon Iron Fist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AcesX1X View Post
    proof of what? that he knew he was going to transform innocent people into inhumans against their will?
    Proof that he knowingly made the bomb to target mutants, unless you can prove that then it's not genocide, it's an accident.

    Quote Originally Posted by AcesX1X View Post
    i know it's easier for you to deny the facts, but this has already been established under section e. genetics are not the only qualifier to meet this requirement, sorry to tell you. if you disagree, then perhaps the world's nations will change their definition to something you can agree with. or perhaps not.
    We've already had the definition from UN here, and it supports that it wasn't genocide. I'm not sure what else you need to hear.

  4. #394
    Newbie Member Marvel Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Star_Jammer View Post
    You just proved that he didn't commit genocide, per any definition I can find.

    Now, if you want to make a case that him creating more Inhumans was a dastardly deed all on it's own, well..I kind of agree.
    As another user has said, maybe you have not look hard enough.

    "Genocide is a denial of the right of existence of entire human groups, as homicide is the denial of the right to live of individual human beings".
    United Nation General Assembly Resolution 96 (I).

    "Genocide is any act that puts the very existence of a group in jeopardy."
    Henry Huttenbach, "Locating the Holocaust on the Genocide Spectrum: Towards a Methodology of Definition and Categorization", Holocaust and Genocide Studies. Vol. 3, No. 3, pp. 289303.).

    "The promotion and execution of policies by a state or its agents which result in the deaths of a substantial portion of a group."
    Barbara Harff and Ted Gurr, "Toward Empirical Theory of Genocides and Politicides", International Studies Quarterly, 37:3, 1988.

    "Genocide in the generic sense means the mass killing of substantial numbers of human beings, when not in the course of military action against the military forces of an avowed enemy, under conditions of the essential defencelessness of the victim."
    Israel W. Charny, Genocide: Conceptual and Historical Dimensions ed. George Andreopoulos.

    Any of this definitions could be applied to this Mutant extinction, at least according to wikipedia. Anyway, it's true that most of the definitions consider "the intent to destroy" as a requirement to speak about a genocide, not all but most of them. I will give you that. Maybe it's better to speak about an "involuntary mass killing"?

    (I fell really stupid making this kind of distinction, but the truth is this would not be a strict case of genocide)
    Last edited by Marvel Man; 09-14-2015 at 01:05 PM. Reason: Nothing really important

  5. #395
    Scarlet and Proud! Star_Jammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvel Man View Post
    As another user has said, maybe you have not look hard enough.

    ...

    Any of this definitions could be applied to this Mutant extinction, at least according to wikipedia. Anyway, it's true that most of the definitions consider "the intent to destroy" as a requirement to speak about a genocide, not all but most of them. I will give you that. Maybe it's better to speak about an "involuntary mass killing"?

    (I fell really stupid making this kind of distinction, but the truth is this would not be a strict case of genocide)
    So...you didn't really disagree with me, then.

  6. #396
    Shou-Lao The Bitch Dragon Iron Fist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvel Man View Post
    As another user has said, maybe you have not look hard enough.

    "Genocide is a denial of the right of existence of entire human groups, as homicide is the denial of the right to live of individual human beings".
    United Nation General Assembly Resolution 96 (I).

    "Genocide is any act that puts the very existence of a group in jeopardy."
    Henry Huttenbach, "Locating the Holocaust on the Genocide Spectrum: Towards a Methodology of Definition and Categorization", Holocaust and Genocide Studies. Vol. 3, No. 3, pp. 289–303.).

    "The promotion and execution of policies by a state or its agents which result in the deaths of a substantial portion of a group."
    Barbara Harff and Ted Gurr, "Toward Empirical Theory of Genocides and Politicides", International Studies Quarterly, 37:3, 1988.

    "Genocide in the generic sense means the mass killing of substantial numbers of human beings, when not in the course of military action against the military forces of an avowed enemy, under conditions of the essential defencelessness of the victim."
    Israel W. Charny, Genocide: Conceptual and Historical Dimensions ed. George Andreopoulos.

    Any of this definitions could be applied to this Mutant extinction, at least according to wikipedia. Anyway, it's true that most of the definitions consider "the intent to destroy" as a requirement to speak about a genocide, not all but most of them. I will give you that. Maybe it's better to speak about an "involuntary mass killing"?

    (I fell really stupid making this kind of distinction, but the truth is this would not be a strict case of genocide)
    But in terms of legality, which should be the key structure we use since everyone can interpret definitions differently. Intent is a cornerstone of proving genocide, just like intent is a cornerstone of proving murder.

    There have been articles in journals since the 80s saying that intent is key to genocide and that it should have criteria to stop people mislabeling thing as genocide that don't quality, like what's happening with the mutants.
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 09-14-2015 at 03:21 PM.

  7. #397
    Newbie Member Marvel Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Star_Jammer View Post
    So...you didn't really disagree with me, then.
    Mind you I would still consider this a genocide, in the context of the Marvel Universe. But I understand that right now, in the real world, it shoudn't be labeled as a such. The problem, I think, is that the involuntary destruction of a whole group is not believable at all, in the real world, and that's why the definition of genocide does not consider this.

  8. #398
    Scarlet and Proud! Star_Jammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvel Man View Post
    Mind you I would still consider this a genocide, in the context of the Marvel Universe. But I understand that right now, in the real world, it shoudn't be labeled as a such. The problem, I think, is that the involuntary destruction of a whole group is not believable at all, in the real world, and that's why the definition of genocide does not consider this.
    So throwing out real-world definitions and real-world peoples' thoughts on the situation is inappropriate, then?

    I mean, I can understand your thought process, in full. I think they (the Marvel Universe) would just come up with a separate term, however, and...it still wouldn't be "genocide".

  9. #399
    Elder Member AcesX1X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm View Post
    Proof that he knowingly made the bomb to target mutants, unless you can prove that then it's not genocide, it's an accident.
    i see now that you are talking entirely different things than what is being posted. he committed genocide against the "nuhumans." there was nothing accidental about what he did.

    the mutants are just an unfortunate casualty of his terrorism.

  10. #400
    Newbie Member Marvel Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Star_Jammer View Post
    So throwing out real-world definitions and real-world peoples' thoughts on the situation is inappropriate, then?

    I mean, I can understand your thought process, in full. I think they (the Marvel Universe) would just come up with a separate term, however, and...it still wouldn't be "genocide".
    Yep, you're right. I think you have explained it better than me.

  11. #401
    Veteran Member shgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvel Man View Post
    Mind you I would still consider this a genocide, in the context of the Marvel Universe. But I understand that right now, in the real world, it shoudn't be labeled as a such. The problem, I think, is that the involuntary destruction of a whole group is not believable at all, in the real world, and that's why the definition of genocide does not consider this.
    The Marvel Universe, as has been pointed out upthread, uses a functionally identical legal system to our universe; and the same English language is spoken in the Marvel Universe as in our universe. Thus it cannot be genocide in the Marvel Universe if it is not genocide in the real universe.

    The reason the definition for genocide does not include BB's action is because every definition and legal definition of genocide specifies that it must be deliberate.

  12. #402
    Elder Member AcesX1X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shgs View Post
    The reason the definition for genocide does not include BB's action is because every definition and legal definition of genocide specifies that it must be deliberate.
    yes, but it was deliberate. that's the part you are so conveniently ignoring.

    genocide calls for the deliberate transference of one group to another in section e. black bolt meets all qualifications there, and he must be punished.

  13. #403
    Scarlet and Proud! Star_Jammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AcesX1X View Post
    yes, but it was deliberate. that's the part you are so conveniently ignoring.

    genocide calls for the deliberate transference of one group to another in section e. black bolt meets all qualifications there, and he must be punished.
    Please clarify which group was transferred to which group.

  14. #404
    Veteran Member shgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AcesX1X View Post
    i see now that you are talking entirely different things than what is being posted. he committed genocide against the "nuhumans." there was nothing accidental about what he did.

    the mutants are just an unfortunate casualty of his terrorism.
    Which 'national, ethnical, racial or religious group' did BB target in creating the nuhumans?

    They are of all races, nationalities, religions, creeds and colours.

    Edit: Nor have they been removed from those races, nationalities, religions, creeds and colours.

    Kamala Khan:

    Before mists - muslim, Pakistani-American
    After mists - muslim, Pakistani-American with superpowers
    Last edited by shgs; 09-14-2015 at 01:41 PM.

  15. #405
    Shou-Lao The Bitch Dragon Iron Fist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AcesX1X View Post
    i see now that you are talking entirely different things than what is being posted. he committed genocide against the "nuhumans." there was nothing accidental about what he did.

    the mutants are just an unfortunate casualty of his terrorism.
    Oh sorry, I thought you pushing the Mutant Genocide point.

    I don't know if i'd consider the nuhumans T Bomb genocide, I mean it could be because in Attilan there is a genetic council to explain and deter people from going through terrigenesis who wouldn't survive it. That vetting process didn't happen on earth so you do have a lot of Inhumans dying in their cocoons because their Inhuman DNA is strong enough to produce a cocoon but not to transform within it.

    That could be genocide because Black Bolt would know the risk of it happening.

    But, it's definitely more debatable than the mutant genocide reach.

    Quote Originally Posted by shgs View Post
    Which 'national, ethnical, racial or religious group' did BB target in creating the nuhumans?

    They are of all races, nationalities, religions, creeds and colours.

    Edit: Nor have they been removed from those races, nationalities, religions, creeds and colours.

    Kamala Khan:

    Before mists - muslim, Pakistani-American
    After mists - muslim, Pakistani-American
    If you have Inhuman DNA you are considered an Inhuman whether or not you've been through the mists.

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