1. #15886
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrHashasheen View Post
    1. It negated T'Challa's accomplishment in uplifting Wakanda and introducing it to the international change, while balancing it with all the various domestic concerns. A feat not as impressive if Wakanda is advanced and great already. T'Challa is as much a statesman as he is a superhero, as he is a king, as he is a man, as he is a son, as he is a brother. To take that is to shallow his character.
    2. It's boring. Atlantis is advanced. Attilan is advanced. Latveria is advanced. Lemuria is advanced. All of them were advanced and had practically no character depth to them as setting. McGregor and Priest achieved so much more with Wakanda as a quickly developing/already developed nation than Hudlin ever did with a super-advanced Wakanda.
    3. The cancer cure crap. God how that still gives me a headache.
    4. Wakanda's greatness isn't dependent on tech-base. It's about culture, about history, deeds and figures of note. Do people care about the New Gods because they have Mother-Boxs or because of the story that Jack Kirby crafted? Did Don McGregor create one of the best Black Panther runs because he littered it with tech or because he created a living breathing world to enter?



    1. Ethiopia says hello. Plus, Wakanda was a relatively small, isolated inland nation. The Great Race need hardly have overtaken it.
    2. Priest actually did a good job with it and it carried a lot of weight in the setting from character perspectives. Hudlin didn't do as good of a job, and it had several glaring problems.
    3. Fans don't need to "understand" anything when it comes to a creative change. I really don't know what you're implying there, but I can disagree with what Hudlin did and still appreciate the Black Panther mythos. Or must Majestik "understand" that Hickman had to do what he did in order to ensure that Black Panther took the next step in his development? (Sorry to throw you under the bus there, bud).



    And I've always found the immediate decision to treat non-fans as anathema baffling. Confront non-fans. Acknowledge and then counter their complaints. Reach out to them. Being insular, critical and defensive is hardly embletic of the character we love and follow, after all. We can fire back and just get mean, but I've never seen the point of that. It lowers us to their standards.
    Agreed on all points, and thanks for saving me a google search

  2. #15887
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    [B]This. There is no realistic way otherwise for Wakanda to have not been colonized if they weren't advance enough to repel invaders
    Thailand managed to stay an independent country during the Imperialistic Age without advanced technology.


    EDIT: MrHashasheen makes some great points.
    Last edited by Omega Alpha; 11-07-2015 at 03:25 PM.

  3. #15888
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK View Post
    Why would you percieve T'Challa as being less "special" just off of the uniqueness of Wakanda?
    Because really, in the MU, secret super advanced societies are a dime a dozen. Inhumans. Eternals, Atlantis. The Neo. Hell, you could argue the Moloids!

    There's absolutely nothing special about them, and hell, only one of their scientists are counted as an evil genius (Maximus).

    Wakanda being Israeli tough doesn't require Kirby tech, and having Wakanda being a reflection of T'Challa's genius is a far greater accomplishment for his character than simply inheriting it.

  4. #15889
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Because really, in the MU, secret super advanced societies are a dime a dozen. Inhumans. Eternals, Atlantis. The Neo. Hell, you could argue the Moloids!

    There's absolutely nothing special about them, and hell, only one of their scientists are counted as an evil genius (Maximus).

    Wakanda being Israeli tough doesn't require Kirby tech, and having Wakanda being a reflection of T'Challa's genius is a far greater accomplishment for his character than simply inheriting it.
    Yeah it's sort of the difference between the person responsible for the creation of the automobile and someone who just inherited a second hand car from their dad. The later simply isn't quite as impressive.

  5. #15890
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Yeah it's sort of the difference between the person responsible for the creation of the automobile and someone who just inherited a second hand car from their dad. The later simply isn't quite as impressive.
    Less impressive yes.. Until that person modifies and turns that automobile into an advanced completely eco friendly, vehicle that also is the very first flying car. I don't completely agree that Wakanda should of been light years ahead of the rest of the world. But formidable, and has repelled invasion and being a wealthy nation because of their advancement and use of vibranium.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Less impressive yes.. Until that person modifies and turns that automobile into an advanced completely eco friendly, vehicle that also is the very first flying car. I don't completely agree that Wakanda should of been light years ahead of the rest of the world. But formidable, and has repelled invasion and being a wealthy nation because of their advancement and use of vibranium.
    And that's fine, because that was canon under Priest and before him. It's just that the advancement and use of vibranium was accelerated under T'Challa, whereas after Priest that wasn't the case.

  7. #15892
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrHashasheen View Post
    And that's fine, because that was canon under Priest and before him. It's just that the advancement and use of vibranium was accelerated under T'Challa, whereas after Priest that wasn't the case.
    well the level that Wakanda came to such a level under Priest's would be a little hard to believe rather then the nation advancing and T'Challa taking to the next level. I think a better thing would be to find a middle ground. Where Wakanda was a nation that didn't group to be one of the most technologically advanced nation's overnight per se, but they were never push overs.

  8. #15893

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    well the level that Wakanda came to such a level under Priest's would be a little hard to believe rather then the nation advancing and T'Challa taking to the next level. I think a better thing would be to find a middle ground. Where Wakanda was a nation that didn't group to be one of the most technologically advanced nation's overnight per se, but they were never push overs.
    Soviet Union. Post-Perry Japan. Persian Gulf States. Israel. Communist China. Cuba.

    A lot of countries were able to modernize rapidly, though not without great sacrifice. That T'Challa managed to do so while retaining his country's traditions is a credit that I don't think people are really getting the weight of.

  9. #15894
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    well the level that Wakanda came to such a level under Priest's would be a little hard to believe rather then the nation advancing and T'Challa taking to the next level. I think a better thing would be to find a middle ground. Where Wakanda was a nation that didn't group to be one of the most technologically advanced nation's overnight per se, but they were never push overs.
    It's more realistic that Wakanda had Kirby tech...before T'Challa...how?

    And really, once you have Kirby tech, there is no higher level

  10. #15895
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrHashasheen View Post
    And that's fine, because that was canon under Priest and before him. It's just that the advancement and use of vibranium was accelerated under T'Challa, whereas after Priest that wasn't the case.
    What came first?

    Vibranium or T'Challa?
    Enjoying the camraderie of friends and family is all that matters in the world.

    Mr MajestiK took a short hiatus and the Chaos Bringer was reborn.

  11. #15896
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    I dont think Wakanda being an technologically advanced society before TChalla hurt a the character. Ni more than the U.S. not being a technologically advanced society hurts Tony Stark and Reed Richards.

  12. #15897
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK View Post
    What came first?

    Vibranium or T'Challa?
    And what does that matter?

  13. #15898
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    Quote Originally Posted by HUTHAIFA View Post
    I dont think Wakanda being an technologically advanced society before TChalla hurt a the character. Ni more than the U.S. not being a technologically advanced society hurts Tony Stark and Reed Richards.
    It does, because it strips T'Challa of 90% of his accomplishments in canon. Stark has his armors, Richards is Richards, but without Wakanda, what is Panther?

  14. #15899
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrHashasheen View Post
    Soviet Union. Post-Perry Japan. Persian Gulf States. Israel. Communist China. Cuba.

    A lot of countries were able to modernize rapidly, though not without great sacrifice. That T'Challa managed to do so while retaining his country's traditions is a credit that I don't think people are really getting the weight of.
    going from a lush secluded nation to the most advanced seems hard to believe, especially since other Panthers were very intelligent as well

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK View Post
    What came first?

    Vibranium or T'Challa?
    Vibranium, obviously. And the Wakandans obviously made use of it in some fashion even before T'Challa if you take into account any mainstream depiction. But there is a difference between a tribal society discovering a new metal and developing their society on a similar timeline with the rest of the world (but with more varied directions and tools) and a tribal society discovering a new metal and and becoming advanced society #12 with it.

    In one of these we're seeing a great deal of the advancements and developments before our eyes and it's an accomplishment to be attributed. In the other one it's something in the background that makes the setting just that little more obviously crafted.

    I'm not saying T'Challa did everything with vibranium and everyone else was a dumbass before him. But in the original interpretation, it's clear that T'Challa utilized Wakanda's greatest strengths in ways it's previous isolationist kings would have never considered, and he did so to it's benefit. In the newer interpretation, T'Challa came back and took a kingdom he had no inherent need to reclaim (S'yan was doing fine as far as we know) and had no specific need for him (utopic, right?) and just went around and did things.

    That's not the Return of the King, that's the arrival of the new CEO, same as the old.

    Quote Originally Posted by HUTHAIFA View Post
    I dont think Wakanda being an technologically advanced society before TChalla hurt a the character. No more than the U.S. not being a technologically advanced society hurts Tony Stark and Reed Richards.
    The United States's tech base wasn't anywhere near what Tony Stark or Reed Richards pioneered or invented or explored. Tony created limitless energy and power armor. Reed went into rocketry and cosmic radiation. Both of those things we still don't have today, much less in the 1960s or 50s when they were first created. These are quantifiable achievements in their biographies, as inextricable as their names.

    It'd be like saying FDR's presidential legacy would be the same if you took out his efforts to battle the Great Depression, World War 2, etc... and just made the USA a utopia for those two decades or so.
    Last edited by MrHashasheen; 11-07-2015 at 05:00 PM.

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