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  1. #121
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    More like the limitations of George Lucas' writing skills...
    Personally, I think it was one of Lucas' strongest lines.

    Obi-Wan conveyed exactly what he meant in a memorable way.

  2. #122
    Mad scientist Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Personally, I think it was one of Lucas' strongest lines.

    Obi-Wan conveyed exactly what he meant in a memorable way.
    He made an absolutist statement about only the Sith being absolutists. Strongest lines? Makes the one about sand seem like Shakespeare.
    "One may be intelligent, and a Nazi. Then one is not decent. One may be decent and a Nazi. Then one is not intelligent. And one may be intelligent and decent. Then one is not a Nazi"
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  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    LOL

    Truth be told, I think the Jedi Order was more at fault than Obi-Wan. They practically pushed him into Palpatine's arms, while Obi-Wan expressed reservations about them using him that way.
    Exactly.

    "You're a Jedi Master Anakin buuuuuut not really". I mean, anyone would be pissed at that point. Not to mention they didn't really trust him at all (which goes back to the argument of why he was even trained in the first place).

    I think that was actually the point of the story, the Jedi had become very...obtuse at that point.

  4. #124
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Exactly.

    "You're a Jedi Master Anakin buuuuuut not really". I mean, anyone would be pissed at that point. Not to mention they didn't really trust him at all (which goes back to the argument of why he was even trained in the first place).

    I think that was actually the point of the story, the Jedi had become very...obtuse at that point.
    Oh, definitely. I think that's one reason why fans didn't respond favorably to the prequel trilogies. Most were expecting the Jedi to be paragons of virtue, and instead they came across as a bureaucracy.

    But Obi-Wan really embodied the best of the Jedi Order. He was slow to anger, thoughtful and compassionate. He understood what Anakin needed but the Jedi Council ignored his concerns.

  5. #125
    Invincible Member TheInvisibleMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Oh, definitely. I think that's one reason why fans didn't respond favorably to the prequel trilogies. Most were expecting the Jedi to be paragons of virtue, and instead they came across as a bureaucracy.

    But Obi-Wan really embodied the best of the Jedi Order. He was slow to anger, thoughtful and compassionate. He understood what Anakin needed but the Jedi Council ignored his concerns.
    monolithic, stale

    and I don't think that's what the spirit of the Jedi should be

    so having a formal order is counter productive IMO
    “If you listen to the fans, you’ll find yourself sitting with them”

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  6. #126
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    But Obi-Wan really embodied the best of the Jedi Order. He was slow to anger, thoughtful and compassionate. He understood what Anakin needed but the Jedi Council ignored his concerns.
    Agree. And Ewan McGregor's Obi-Wan was easily the best part of the prequel trilogy. Liam Neeson's Qui-Gon Jinn was a very close second for me.

    Personally, I think it was one of Lucas' strongest lines.
    It was a great line, and it really embodies the philosophical arguments well. Jedi are flexible in their worldview, Sith are not. It was because the Jedi are so open-minded that Anakin was trained, and that open-mindedness ultimately caused their downfall.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  7. #127
    Class 5 Roaming Vapor BeastieRunner's Avatar
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    George talked about the Jedi being more samurai-like.

    I'd be down with that.

    Ronin Jedi, too.
    "Always listen to the crazy scientist with a weird van or armful of blueprints and diagrams." -- Vibranium

  8. #128
    Class 5 Roaming Vapor BeastieRunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post

    It was a great line, and it really embodies the philosophical arguments well. Jedi are flexible in their worldview, Sith are not. It was because the Jedi are so open-minded that Anakin was trained, and that open-mindedness ultimately caused their downfall.
    I can see where Qui-Gon would've been great for Anakin. I think they did a good job conveying that. Obi-Wan and Anakin were more peers, not Master and Apprentice. More like friends. Which can cause problems in that kind of relationship dynamic.
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  9. #129
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post

    It was a great line, and it really embodies the philosophical arguments well. Jedi are flexible in their worldview, Sith are not. It was because the Jedi are so open-minded that Anakin was trained, and that open-mindedness ultimately caused their downfall.
    I thought the Jedi were depicted, on the whole, as rather rigid in their ways during the Prequels. Qui-Gon was a notable exception as was, to a lesser extent, Obi-Wan later on (but not in the beginning).

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  10. #130
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    I thought the Jedi were depicted, on the whole, as rather rigid in their ways during the Prequels. Qui-Gon was a notable exception as was, to a lesser extent, Obi-Wan later on (but not in the beginning).

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    Yes but they were democratic. The Jedi tried to be rigid but ultimately they tended to give in when confronted with rebellion from within their order or if pressured. The Sith took advantage of this tendency.
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  11. #131
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Yes but they were democratic. The Jedi tried to be rigid but ultimately they tended to give in when confronted with rebellion from within their order or if pressured. The Sith took advantage of this tendency.
    Basically, they alternated between rigid and indecisive at the worst possible moments.

    Perhaps it could be argued the Jedi had stopped trusting their personal connection with the Force, which is what ultimately led to their downfall?

  12. #132
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Basically, they alternated between rigid and indecisive at the worst possible moments.

    Perhaps it could be argued the Jedi had stopped trusting their personal connection with the Force, which is what ultimately led to their downfall?
    We also saw them in a particularly tumultuous time. The discovery of Anakin fulfilled a prophecy but it also was unexpected and they didn't have a solid plan on what to do next.
    Last edited by Scott Taylor; 04-18-2017 at 01:47 PM.
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  13. #133
    Mad scientist Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Yes but they were democratic. The Jedi tried to be rigid but ultimately they tended to give in when confronted with rebellion from within their order or if pressured. The Sith took advantage of this tendency.
    How were the Jedi democratic?
    They were controlled by a council of Jedi Masters, none of them elected, all of them appointed by that same council. Except for Anakin Skywalker, who was appointed by an actual democratic head of state, and was given zero authority because of it. And that was before they even knew Palpatine was a Sith.
    "One may be intelligent, and a Nazi. Then one is not decent. One may be decent and a Nazi. Then one is not intelligent. And one may be intelligent and decent. Then one is not a Nazi"
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  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Obi-Wan only defeated Darth Maul when he gave in to his anger over Qui-Gonn's death.
    Yeah, you might want to watch the movie again, because that isn't at all what happened. When Obi-wan acted in anger he gave Maul a good fight for all of 30 seconds before getting knocked into a chasm. Or you know, beaten. Maul could have easily killed him at this point, but Sith arrogance is his greatest weakness and he gives Obi-wan time

    Time which Obi-wan uses to settle himself, calm down, center his emotions and act without anger. Obi-wan becomes a true Jedi Knight in that moment, when he moves past his anger and is able to act from a place of necessity, not vengeance. Or, put another way, the only reason Kenobi beats Maul is by LETTING GO of his anger, not by giving in to it.

  15. #135
    Class 5 Roaming Vapor BeastieRunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    Yeah, you might want to watch the movie again, because that isn't at all what happened. When Obi-wan acted in anger he gave Maul a good fight for all of 30 seconds before getting knocked into a chasm. Or you know, beaten. Maul could have easily killed him at this point, but Sith arrogance is his greatest weakness and he gives Obi-wan time

    Time which Obi-wan uses to settle himself, calm down, center his emotions and act without anger. Obi-wan becomes a true Jedi Knight in that moment, when he moves past his anger and is able to act from a place of necessity, not vengeance. Or, put another way, the only reason Kenobi beats Maul is by LETTING GO of his anger, not by giving in to it.
    An angry Kenobi probably would've leaped out of the chasm head first at Maul only to get skewered by Maul.
    "Always listen to the crazy scientist with a weird van or armful of blueprints and diagrams." -- Vibranium

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