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  1. #1
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    Default Offensive or Defensive Feats - On which falls the burden of proof?

    Ok, maybe the headline is a bit confusing.

    Let me explain what I mean, I love this board and really enjoy posting here (even though it is not that often).
    But there is one thing I don't get, or rather, where I don't see a consistent rule. Maybe an example will demonstrate it best:

    Joe is a Class 100 flying brick. He lifts mountains, endures the heat and radiation of nuclear bombs without a problem and can easily fly a thousand times faster than the speed of sound.

    Bill is a transmuter. Throughout his career he has fought many street levelers and occasionally people up to the Class 40-ballpark. After years of training, he has no problem easily turning organic foes into whatever he likes. Stone, glass, mud, he tried out many variations. Oh, and he also has super speed ;D

    Now, if I put these two into rumbles, one could argue in two ways.

    a) Joe wins, since Bill has never transmuted a Class 100 brick in his career
    b) Bill wins, since Joe has no resistance feats against Transmutation

    Which one is right?
    What is supposed to be the norm around here?
    Last edited by Nimroy; 02-27-2016 at 10:56 AM.

  2. #2
    Prince of Duckness Beadle's Avatar
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    It's never that clear-cut in terms of burden of proof. The burden is on both. In non-esoteric offensive and defensive showings (e.g. NOT including transmutation), the attacker has to show that they can damage something with the best durability feats of the defender, and the defender needs to show that they can resist something with the best damage output feats of the attacker. One of them won't manage it.

    In this particular case, with weird-ass esoterics, I tend to come down as follows:
    Unless they have specific transmutation resistance feats, they can't resist transmutation until they're into Skyfather territory overall (at which point all bets are off).

    For example, let's say Gladiator has no transmutation resistance feats (I really can't remember). If someone has feats of transmuting say Spider-Man, I would say they can transmute Gladiator. If they were up against Zeus, and he had no transmutation resistance feats, I'd still say they were shit out of luck. Zeus is just gonna lolnope it.

  3. #3
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    I would say it also depends on how the power is treated in setting. If durability provides resistance to transmutation in setting (like say it is really tough to transmute adamantium) then I would say the transmuter needs feats of transmuting someone as or more durable than his target. Telepathy is a better example of this. Marvel telepathy can be resisted by sufficient willpower (see Doom bouncing Emma Frost and Purple Man). Hal Jordan has massive willpower, so much so that it can be weaponized. Thus, a Marvel telepath is going to need feats of affecting someone with willpower on the level of Hal Jordan or he will bounce it (even without a ring). Some other setting may say willpower is irrelevant to resistance and only a psychic can resist another psychic. I'd say their powers would work on Hal, unless he has demonstrated a resistance to similar attacks (and the ring may have). Just my two cents.

  4. #4
    The Tentacle God Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    You're all wrong.

    The proof is in the pudding.

  5. #5
    Prince of Duckness Beadle's Avatar
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    While I agree with your point, SM, just to clarify that Purple Man's powers are not telepathic. They're pheromone-based, or something.

  6. #6
    Junior Member Omega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beadle View Post
    While I agree with your point, SM, just to clarify that Purple Man's powers are not telepathic. They're pheromone-based, or something.
    This is true. Pheremone (chemical) based as far as I know.

    But on topic, I was involved in a rumble on the old CBR where some random schmuck with transmutation was given a win over Surtur, due to Surtur having no transmutation resistance feats. So apparently sky-father level is not powerful enough to lolnope stuff (even though I argued that it was). Likely someone has to be a mid-tier cosmic (above Watchers but below Celestials, maybe a cosmic cube?) before they get handwaved transmutation resistance. Or so I'm led to believe.
    You address omnipotence. Tread carefully. - Thanos of Titan

  7. #7
    Veteran Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beadle View Post
    While I agree with your point, SM, just to clarify that Purple Man's powers are not telepathic. They're pheromone-based, or something.
    Pheromones in the comics, I believe, and a virus in the show. Resistable by telepathic mind shield in the comics and by will power. Unclear in the show since telepathy doesn't exist in the MCU and he didn't run into anyone noted for extremes of will power.

    To the example of the unstoppable force versus the immovable object or offense versus defense, it's not clear cut. Durability versus transmutation came up not long ago in a thread and there was no absolute answer other than "Could go either way". No evidence of being able to resist transmutation but no evidence of ever transmuting someone of that level of durability.
    "And you know we're all just holograms projected by a scientist riding a turtle on the back of an elephant standing on the limb of a tree that is rooted in a garden tended by a lion imagined by a goose flying over a lake inside a snow globe on the mantel of an elvish fireplace constructed by a team of dwarves in a world described in a book in a library of dreams in the nightmare of a child sleeping in his mother's lap while she thinks about what to make for dinner . . ."
    - Jim Kelly

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega View Post
    This is true. Pheremone (chemical) based as far as I know.

    But on topic, I was involved in a rumble on the old CBR where some random schmuck with transmutation was given a win over Surtur, due to Surtur having no transmutation resistance feats. So apparently sky-father level is not powerful enough to lolnope stuff (even though I argued that it was). Likely someone has to be a mid-tier cosmic (above Watchers but below Celestials, maybe a cosmic cube?) before they get handwaved transmutation resistance. Or so I'm led to believe.
    Really? Must have been a dark time.

  9. #9
    Veteran Member T51R's Avatar
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    Neither.

    That's why we go by feats; whoever or whichever has the best feats, wins. LHW VS Giga Drill Breaker outright, not scenario should demonstrate how this works.

  10. #10
    Veteran Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega View Post
    This is true. Pheremone (chemical) based as far as I know.

    But on topic, I was involved in a rumble on the old CBR where some random schmuck with transmutation was given a win over Surtur, due to Surtur having no transmutation resistance feats. So apparently sky-father level is not powerful enough to lolnope stuff (even though I argued that it was). Likely someone has to be a mid-tier cosmic (above Watchers but below Celestials, maybe a cosmic cube?) before they get handwaved transmutation resistance. Or so I'm led to believe.
    In my opinion, in a situation like that, it's better to just say that Surtur should win but it's debatable if he wins by provable feats.

    That way, we maintain the whole "We go by feats" but admit there are situations where it doesn't get realistic results. Because the problem is it becomes a big argument sometimes as to who qualifies for a "lolnope" I don't have to have the feats loophole and who doesn't.

    There are certain characters that, whenever they end up in a rumble, it comes down to "So and so is a bad character to put into rumbles because they should win a lot of these fights but they don't have the feats to support the win."
    "And you know we're all just holograms projected by a scientist riding a turtle on the back of an elephant standing on the limb of a tree that is rooted in a garden tended by a lion imagined by a goose flying over a lake inside a snow globe on the mantel of an elvish fireplace constructed by a team of dwarves in a world described in a book in a library of dreams in the nightmare of a child sleeping in his mother's lap while she thinks about what to make for dinner . . ."
    - Jim Kelly

  11. #11
    E-Liter3K Scoped Headshot The MunchKING's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    Because the problem is it becomes a big argument sometimes as to who qualifies for a "lolnope" I don't have to have the feats loophole and who doesn't.

    Yeah, those are annoying. I remember one time I was arguing that because a character had power X doesn't mean he should get powers Y, Z, and W without feats. Which for some reason is completely logical when it comes to "Strength, flight and the ability to shoot lasers out of your eyes" but is totally crazy when we're talking creation/destruction.
    The MunchKING is Back! And he is AWSOME!

  12. #12
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    From what I've experienced and read, it's usually the defender (or in this case, Joe) that would win as there is no proof that shows he would get transmuted by Bill. From my experience, I see people siding with the generally stronger character when it comes down to a move that could decide the match, like transmutation.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nimroy View Post
    Ok, maybe the headline is a bit confusing.

    Let me explain what I mean, I love this board and really enjoy posting here (even though it is not that often).
    But there is one thing I don't get, or rather, where I don't see a consistent rule. Maybe an example will demonstrate it best:

    Joe is a Class 100 flying brick. He lifts mountains, endures the heat and radiation of nuclear bombs without a problem and can easily fly a thousand times faster than the speed of sound.

    Bill is a transmuter. Throughout his career he has fought many street levelers and occasionally people up to the Class 40-ballpark. After years of training, he has no problem easily turning organic foes into whatever he likes. Stone, glass, mud, he tried out many variations. Oh, and he also has super speed ;D

    Now, if I put these two into rumbles, one could argue in two ways.

    a) Joe wins, since Bill has never transmuted a Class 100 brick in his career
    b) Bill wins, since Joe has no resistance feats against Transmutation

    Which one is right?
    What is supposed to be the norm around here?
    The problem with this scenario is not the strength vs transmutation question. It's the speed question. It's stated that one has a speed 1000 times the speed of sound and the others speed is not quantified. It just says superspeed. Now if he's talking bullet timing, of course the first guy wins easily since he could pound the other into pulp before he even moves. If it's supersonic, the same. If it's Light speed or better it turns completely around and the transmuter wins. If the speeds are equal then we have the brick vs transmutation question. As always on this board, speed is the decisive factor.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nimroy View Post
    Ok, maybe the headline is a bit confusing.

    Let me explain what I mean, I love this board and really enjoy posting here (even though it is not that often).
    But there is one thing I don't get, or rather, where I don't see a consistent rule. Maybe an example will demonstrate it best:

    Joe is a Class 100 flying brick. He lifts mountains, endures the heat and radiation of nuclear bombs without a problem and can easily fly a thousand times faster than the speed of sound.

    Bill is a transmuter. Throughout his career he has fought many street levelers and occasionally people up to the Class 40-ballpark. After years of training, he has no problem easily turning organic foes into whatever he likes. Stone, glass, mud, he tried out many variations. Oh, and he also has super speed ;D

    Now, if I put these two into rumbles, one could argue in two ways.

    a) Joe wins, since Bill has never transmuted a Class 100 brick in his career
    b) Bill wins, since Joe has no resistance feats against Transmutation

    Which one is right?
    What is supposed to be the norm around here?
    Maybe the reasonable conclusion is that it's very arguable either of them could win. There doesn't have to be one right choice.

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