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  1. #181
    Astonishing Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Peril View Post
    I think it best if another thread is created for this.
    I second this (a debate thread maybe titled "Who Makes The Better Spider-Man: Peter or Otto?).
    "You'll never learn to fly now 'til you're standing at the cliff."

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I know you retracted the satire argument later, but that wasn't quite the right word, even though a big part of the story was to show the power of Spider-Man in the wrong hands. A satire is about ridicule and shaming, and Superior Spider-Man wasn't that.

    I wrote this elsewhere during Superior Spider-Man, but I think it was like a cover song.



    A potential argument against Marvel demoting Peter Parker to a supporting character is that a similar story could be done without the new protagonist taking the place of the most popular character. Doctor Octopus could become a hero in his own title, without Marvel artificially inflating sales by making his book the new Spider-Man title. So that got me thinking about the appeal of new characters in old roles. And it hit me: Superior Spider-Man is like a cover song.

    You have some familiar elements, like the power set, supporting cast and the rogues gallery. But there’s a twist to it. He’ll use his abilities differently. In the same setting with the same tools, he’ll respond to supporting characters and guest stars in ways that Peter Parker never would.

    So it’s like hearing a new version of a song you like. The Jimi Hendrix version of “All Along the Watchtower,” the Bruce Springsteen version of “Chimes of Freedom” and The Byrds version of “Mr. Tambourine Man” bring a new energy to songs that were pretty good when Bob Dylan sang them. Johnny Cash’s cover of “Solitary Man” presents a new way of considering Neil Diamond’s lyrics. Cash’s “Hurt” and “I Hung My Head” have supplanted the originals, though Spider-Ock is unlikely to replace Peter Parker in quite the same way.

    “I Want to Hold Your Hand” is a fantastic song. But the version from Across the Universe is a revelation, even if it’s not quite on the same level. It causes you to consider the music from an entirely different perspective. The Beatles were always going to get the girl, but what if the song comes from someone who doesn’t have a chance?



    With someone else in Peter’s shoes, we get new insights into Spider-Man and his world. When Spock knocked Scorpion’s jaw off, it was a reminder of what happens when that power is in the wrong hands. Slott has spoken of the meta aspects of the story, and how he flipped the board, so that the world trusts Spider-Man again, but the reader is more than suspicious. He’s exploring major themes in the Spider-Man comics from a new angle.

    In comics, this has previously worked best in Ed Brubkaer’s Captain America and Morrison’s Batman and Robin. The former featured Bucky going through the same things Steve Rogers went through in the Silver Age, as he fought to avenge his partner, and got used to modern life when so much had changed since World War 2. In the latter, Dick Grayson became the new Batman while Damian Wayne, son of Bruce Wayne and Talia Al Ghul, became the new Robin. That was probably the most fun, just because of how different Damian Wayne was from Batman’s earlier sidekicks. Morrison also inverted the relationship, so that he had a Robin much grimmer than Batman. When Bruce Wayne returned as Batman, Tomasi and Gleason have used Batman and Robin to explore what had previously been a master-apprentice partnership as a true father-son relationship. The Damian Wayne Robin was also a welcome addition to the Teen Titans.

    One of the things that makes supervillains who have the same powers as the hero so interesting is the ability to feature similar situations with different characters. The Evil Counterparts use their abilities in ways that the hero never would. Moriarity shows readers what would happen if Sherlock Holmes used his mind for nefarious purposes. The Abomination demonstrates what the Hulk is capable of if he actually was what he was assumed to be. Writers and artists usually just pit the hero against their dark mirror, but it could be interesting to have heroes fight twisted versions of their allies. The Justice League should sometimes fight evil Kryptonians without Superman’s help.

    A cover song doesn’t replace the original, except perhaps in the case of Johnny Cash’s “Hurt.” But it can add to one’s appreciation of it. That could happen here. An interesting wrinkle with Superior Spider-Man is that Peter Parker is still around as a bystander. So he gets to see Spider-Man in action from the outside. The character may learn a few things when he eventually regains control of his body.
    I think Ben Reilly's first run (until they decided to reverse course and bring back Peter) and any time Dick takes over for Batman are quite analogous to cover songs. SpOck, Azrael, Artemis, and two or three of the four replacement Superman all strike me more as fun house mirrors. In the former group, you're seeing a qualified, heroic character with a different world view taking on a new role. It's really interesting, but it's more about how the new character takes on the old role (changing the tempo, the instruments, etc). In the latter cases, the character(s) taking over are specifically flawed or have an exaggerated characteristic of the original hero to show off why the original is the best (I haven't read it in 20+ years, but there was this long interview w/Denny O'Neill in Wizard when Knightsend ended about this).

    Artemis was the Amazon warrior without being the Ambassador of Peace. Azrael was the 90s grim and gritty brawler who didn't care about the sanctity of life or bystanders. Superboy was brash, Eradicator was that 90s hero like AzBats, Steel was more a cover song, and Cyborg Superman was first the Superman w/no memory before being revealed to be the bad guy. I think SpOck is most like the Eradicator or AzBats - his methods were more efficient in some sense, but he was so worried about how he measured up to Pete that he wasn't actually just being a hero. Sure, he systematized his crime fighting to give himself more of a life, but then he relied too much on that system (had he, for example, ever read a newspaper or watched TV, he'd have known there was a crime wave going on that his computers weren't alerting him to). He was more brutal with his enemies, but he also burned through his goodwill with other heroes. Eradicator gave up his life to save Superman, SpOck gave up his life to save Anna Maria (and maybe the city, too), and AzBats took off the cape and cowl in a moment of clarity - and all three did that because of the goodness/righteousness of the original hero.

  3. #183
    Astonishing Member Celgress's Avatar
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    I know this might not be popular with everyone but I still want an eventual What If? Otto remained Superior Spider-Man after Goblin Nation issue, mini-series or better yet an ongoing.
    Last edited by Celgress; 06-12-2018 at 04:16 PM.
    "You'll never learn to fly now 'til you're standing at the cliff."

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    I know this might not be popular with everyone but I still want an eventual What If? Otto remained Superior Spider-Man after Goblin Nation issue, mini-series or better yet an ongoing.
    Renew Your Arms?

    I'd read it - I would be interested to see how the SpOck/Anna Maria relationship progressed as she found out his (external) secret identity and perhaps also his (internal) secret identity. I think the concept of SpOck cannot be homeostatic - he'd eventually tip into either villainy or being revealed as Otto - but it'd be interesting to see how Anna Maria reacted as the fall happened rather than her being entirely oblivious as she was in Goblin Nation.

  5. #185
    Amazing Member Deku's Avatar
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    Otto is getting a new series in October! https://www.newsarama.com/40800-doc-...s-october.html

    I am so happy and excited. I loved Superior Spider-Man and I can't wait to see the continuation of Otto's story.
    PLUS ULTRA!

  6. #186
    Astonishing Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deku View Post
    Otto is getting a new series in October! https://www.newsarama.com/40800-doc-...s-october.html

    I am so happy and excited. I loved Superior Spider-Man and I can't wait to see the continuation of Otto's story.
    So am I yes, Yes, YES!!!
    "You'll never learn to fly now 'til you're standing at the cliff."

  7. #187
    IRON MAN Tony Stark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deku View Post
    Otto is getting a new series in October! https://www.newsarama.com/40800-doc-...s-october.html

    I am so happy and excited. I loved Superior Spider-Man and I can't wait to see the continuation of Otto's story.
    Yes! Will definitely be putting this on my pull list.
    Last edited by Tony Stark; 07-13-2018 at 04:36 AM.
    " I've learned that free will isn't a gift-it's muscle that needs to be exercised-and only when it's in peak condition-is a man truly awake" TONY STARK

  8. #188
    Radioactive! Spiderfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deku View Post
    Otto is getting a new series in October! https://www.newsarama.com/40800-doc-...s-october.html

    I am so happy and excited. I loved Superior Spider-Man and I can't wait to see the continuation of Otto's story.
    by Dan Slott??
    The city I once knew as home is teetering on the edge of radioactive oblivion

  9. #189
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    It feels a bit 'late' and they made some of the key mistakes I hoped they wouldn't (young, slender and handsome body) but I'll still take it for what it is.

  10. #190

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    It feels a bit 'late' and they made some of the key mistakes I hoped they wouldn't (young, slender and handsome body) but I'll still take it for what it is.
    how is that a mistake?
    Quote Originally Posted by somacula View Post
    Because its fun, not as fun as the liberal meltdown but close
    11/10/2016

  11. #191
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    I wrote a while back that if they did an Otto title, I hoped they wouldn't make him pretty for it. Do you remember that scene in Unbreakable where Mr. Glass (if you've ever seen it) talks about the physical ugliness of the villain compared to the handsomeness of the hero? Comics are full of that kinda shorthand. Otto as a schlubby, homely guy who values people for who they are, rather than what they look like, is a better thing than him just being another handsome, pretty boy anti-hero. In making him pretty, young, athletic, they lose part of what makes Otto stand out a bit more as a character.
    Last edited by Tendrin; 07-12-2018 at 10:44 PM.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deku View Post
    Otto is getting a new series in October! https://www.newsarama.com/40800-doc-...s-october.html

    I am so happy and excited. I loved Superior Spider-Man and I can't wait to see the continuation of Otto's story.
    Happy days. Love SpOck!

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