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  1. #3601
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RepHope View Post
    Those trends are alive and well, don’t know why you think they’re dead.
    I haven't heard of any popular superhero stories recently in which the protagonists engage in mass slaughter of their enemies with little regard for civilian casualties. The last time that trope reared its ugly head was Snyder's Man of Steel five years ago and it was so unpopular every superhero film since then has gone out of its way to steer clear of that idea.

  2. #3602
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssupes View Post
    https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/co...ration_in_bvs/

    And that folks is why I'm glad the whole Knightmare thing ended up on the cutting room floor for justice league.
    To be fair, I can somewhat understand Zack Snyder's perspective here. The Injustice games are very popular. Since he clearly didn't understand people's affection for the bright and fun Superman, it makes sense that he'd double-down on the dark and brooding idea of an evil Superman warped into a murderous monster by the death of Lois Lane. Warner Bros. at the time also had no idea what made Superman appealing to people, so they probably thought this was a great idea, too. It wasn't until BvS came out and people were so utterly repelled by the overwhelming darkness that WB finally snapped out of whatever bubble they'd constructed in which they thought that there was a huge audience for a grim n' gritty Superman.

  3. #3603
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Apparently, they aren't what superhero fans want in their comics and related media.

    Of course, i never understood why writers didn't just make lighthearted superhero content instead of convoluted stories like What's So Funny, Kingdom Come, Doomsday Clock and Final Crisis that whined about how dark stories are "ruining everything".
    Exactly. Why not make a Superman movie about Superman rather than make another movie with Superman trying to appeal to people who already don't like him? Make new fans rather than try to convert people who've already made up their minds based upon the countless crappy Superman stories out there.

  4. #3604
    Fantastic Member RepHope's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Exactly. Why not make a Superman movie about Superman rather than make another movie with Superman trying to appeal to people who already don't like him? Make new fans rather than try to convert people who've already made up their minds based upon the countless crappy Superman stories out there.
    You’re giving them too much credit, most of them have never read a comic in their life. They hate him because of some out of context Silver Age panel that’s not even canon, or because of Injustice. Or because he’s “perfect” or “too OP”.

  5. #3605
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    However, it is worth pointing out that Snyder's response is very brief. While it does appear as if Snyder's confirming that he had a real arc planned for the Knightmare sequence, that might not be the case. Snyder could just be explaining that Injustice serves as an inspiration for Knightmare. It's even possible that other parts of the Knightmare sequence, like the hints of Darkseid, were the threads to be picked from a future arc and Superman wasn't ever going to turn evil.

    After all, while Snyder's Superman was dour, he never got anywhere close to evil. From Man of Steel to Batman v Superman, Superman is always attempting to be a beacon of hope and heroism. It's the cynical outside world that is crushing Clark's spirit.
    So did the people complaining about the Knightmare thing also miss this part of the article? At worst, we'd simply gotten another story in which Superman was mind controlled which is almost as common as Kryptonite.

    The funny thing is, I remember a lot of jerks insisting that the only way to "salvage" Man of Steel was if DCEU Superman was revealed to be a villain one of them being noted harasser Chris Sims. Hell I recall one guy on cracked.com stating he wanted Batman to kill Superman in the sequel (this was long before BvS was announced).

  6. #3606
    Astonishing Member dancj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I haven't heard of any popular superhero stories recently in which the protagonists engage in mass slaughter of their enemies with little regard for civilian casualties. The last time that trope reared its ugly head was Snyder's Man of Steel five years ago and it was so unpopular every superhero film since then has gone out of its way to steer clear of that idea.
    One person is "mass slaughter" now?

  7. #3607
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    One person is "mass slaughter" now?
    Well for the " man of Murder" contingent, the people who died during the world engine assault was Superman"s fault for some reason. I remember many of them trying to convince people Zod wasn't all that bad of a guy and Superman was the villian in that conflict.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
    SUPERMAN is the greatest fictional character ever created.

  8. #3608
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    One person is "mass slaughter" now?
    I was referring to the mass destruction that featured so prominently in Man of Steel, not the death of Zod. We certainly don't need to rehash that well-trod argument Irregardless of whether or not Superman could even have prevented any of that destruction, the perception at the time and still now is that it was not the way most audiences wanted superhero fights depicted. Dredging up that exact idea in a sequel just so Superman can lecture some Authority stand-ins about the importance of protecting civilians does not seem like the approach they should be taking this newly sunny and fun Superman.

  9. #3609
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    Quote Originally Posted by manofsteel1979 View Post
    Well for the " man of Murder" contingent, the people who died during the world engine assault was Superman"s fault for some reason. I remember many of them trying to convince people Zod wasn't all that bad of a guy and Superman was the villian in that conflict.
    We really don't need to go over this again, so let's please not rehash it yet again. Suffice it to say, the perception from many audiences was that Superman should have been shown on-screen trying to save the civilians that were caught in the middle of all the destruction that Snyder so carefully constructed rather than exclusively focused on brawling with Zod with seemingly no regard for the chaos they were causing around them. Yes, the argument can certainly be made that Superman should have been focused on the biggest threat, which was most certainly Zod, but when enough of your audience is getting the same vibe, it's hard to argue with that perception.

    Had somebody only spoken up during post-production to suggest maybe inserting a few shots of Superman at least trying to keep civilians out of harms way during that final brawl, I think most of the audience would have walked away without the perception that Superman held some responsibility for all that destruction. But, unfortunately, that ship has sailed and they did a clear course correction on that particular problem in the sequels--almost to the point of it becoming a running joke.

  10. #3610
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    So did the people complaining about the Knightmare thing also miss this part of the article? At worst, we'd simply gotten another story in which Superman was mind controlled which is almost as common as Kryptonite.
    The mind control being common does not mean that seeing it play out yet again would be a fun time at the movies. Doubling down on situations like this would do nothing to alleviate the accusations that this is a dour universe in which Superman should get credit for trying, but not being allowed to actually succeed in much without dying.

    Having Cavill be forced to walk around with a stern look on his face would also be shitty and a waste of the poor guy's talents.

    All that being said:



    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The funny thing is, I remember a lot of jerks insisting that the only way to "salvage" Man of Steel was if DCEU Superman was revealed to be a villain one of them being noted harasser Chris Sims. Hell I recall one guy on cracked.com stating he wanted Batman to kill Superman in the sequel (this was long before BvS was announced).
    I agree that this is ridiculous. That's not even necessary after the shitshow that was JL. All they have to do is put good movies out and quietly ignore the previous films. Equating DCEU Supes, even with the heavily flawed portrayal we've had, with villains is nonsense.

  11. #3611
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The funny thing is, I remember a lot of jerks insisting that the only way to "salvage" Man of Steel was if DCEU Superman was revealed to be a villain one of them being noted harasser Chris Sims. Hell I recall one guy on cracked.com stating he wanted Batman to kill Superman in the sequel (this was long before BvS was announced).
    Yeah... for all the problems I have with MoS and BvS, that's something I never wanted to see happen. I wouldn't have put it past WB to do it, mind you, but that would not have been a good idea. I will say that, 2/3rds of the way into BvS I did think "maybe Batman should kill him so I don't have to think about the DCEU anymore if it's going to be this aggrivating" but that's about the extent of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    We really don't need to go over this again, so let's please not rehash it yet again. Suffice it to say, the perception from many audiences was that Superman should have been shown on-screen trying to save the civilians that were caught in the middle of all the destruction that Snyder so carefully constructed rather than exclusively focused on brawling with Zod with seemingly no regard for the chaos they were causing around them. Yes, the argument can certainly be made that Superman should have been focused on the biggest threat, which was most certainly Zod, but when enough of your audience is getting the same vibe, it's hard to argue with that perception.

    Had somebody only spoken up during post-production to suggest maybe inserting a few shots of Superman at least trying to keep civilians out of harms way during that final brawl, I think most of the audience would have walked away without the perception that Superman held some responsibility for all that destruction. But, unfortunately, that ship has sailed and they did a clear course correction on that particular problem in the sequels--almost to the point of it becoming a running joke.
    Actually... even if everything else would have been what it was.. if (during him crying in Lois's arms after killing Zod) he hears someone calling for help, composes himself wearily and then we see from the angle of the child (or whoever) as the debris covering them is lifted away, and light floods into the shot with his hand, saying "it's ok, I've got you. it's safe now." The person hugs Superman, who looks pensively at Lois - she smiles, and in turn he smiles and hugs the person back. (something like that, anyway).

    A scene like that would have gone a LOOOONG way to showing him becoming Superman, while also giving the audience an actual beat to breathe after the last 20+minutes (before switching to quips about drones and whatnot).
    Hear my new CD "Love The World Away", available on iTunes, Google Music, Spotify, Shazam, and Amazon: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B01N5XYV..._waESybX1C0RXK via @amazon
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  12. #3612
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    A scene like that would have gone a LOOOONG way to showing him becoming Superman, while also giving the audience an actual beat to breathe after the last 20+minutes (before switching to quips about drones and whatnot).
    There were plenty of options on the table they could have used, but they didn't and the movie and its sequel pretty much divided fandom and hobbled the DCEU going forward. The perception of DC by the general audience, unfortunately, is so dismal I am not even sure that Cavill will get the chance to play the character again.

    If Aquaman manages to get good reviews, but still underperforms, the entire DCEU franchise is toast as it currently exists. Only Shazam and Wonder Woman 2 are being made at the moment. If audiences don't respond to them in a big way, I think we'll see another few years of DCU-less movies while WB retools and reboots the whole thing similar to how Shumacher's Batman & Robin sent the Bat-franchise into hibernation for 7 years before Batman Begins revived the whole thing. I don't think the wait will be quite that long, but I would expect a brand-new Batman film first because that's the only thing WB seems to think is a guaranteed hit.

  13. #3613
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    There were plenty of options on the table they could have used, but they didn't and the movie and its sequel pretty much divided fandom and hobbled the DCEU going forward. The perception of DC by the general audience, unfortunately, is so dismal I am not even sure that Cavill will get the chance to play the character again.
    It is pretty dismal, but I think Cavill, mustache aside, got out of JL pretty well. A lot of people I talked to said "at least I liked Superman this time". So if Shazam and Aquaman do ok, we might still be in business. But if not... yeah, it's pretty dead. And that'll be the end of anybody trying a live action DoS or Dark Knight Returns anytime soon.. which could almost be a good thing for DC to not have that crutch for a change.

    My main point with talking about the scene to add is that it wouldn't haven taken much work to make what there at least "more workable" than what's there. But as you said.. they didn't.
    Hear my new CD "Love The World Away", available on iTunes, Google Music, Spotify, Shazam, and Amazon: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B01N5XYV..._waESybX1C0RXK via @amazon
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  14. #3614
    Fantastic Member RepHope's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    It is pretty dismal, but I think Cavill, mustache aside, got out of JL pretty well. A lot of people I talked to said "at least I liked Superman this time". So if Shazam and Aquaman do ok, we might still be in business. But if not... yeah, it's pretty dead. And that'll be the end of anybody trying a live action DoS or Dark Knight Returns anytime soon.. which could almost be a good thing for DC to not have that crutch for a change.

    My main point with talking about the scene to add is that it wouldn't haven taken much work to make what there at least "more workable" than what's there. But as you said.. they didn't.
    If anything the DCEU sticking around would mean that. Having to distance themselves from BvS means they aren't going to be revisiting anything from those movies any time soon.

  15. #3615
    Astonishing Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    Yeah... for all the problems I have with MoS and BvS, that's something I never wanted to see happen. I wouldn't have put it past WB to do it, mind you, but that would not have been a good idea. I will say that, 2/3rds of the way into BvS I did think "maybe Batman should kill him so I don't have to think about the DCEU anymore if it's going to be this aggrivating" but that's about the extent of it.



    Actually... even if everything else would have been what it was.. if (during him crying in Lois's arms after killing Zod) he hears someone calling for help, composes himself wearily and then we see from the angle of the child (or whoever) as the debris covering them is lifted away, and light floods into the shot with his hand, saying "it's ok, I've got you. it's safe now." The person hugs Superman, who looks pensively at Lois - she smiles, and in turn he smiles and hugs the person back. (something like that, anyway).

    A scene like that would have gone a LOOOONG way to showing him becoming Superman, while also giving the audience an actual beat to breathe after the last 20+minutes (before switching to quips about drones and whatnot).
    There is also the Smallville issue with the film. He got mad about Zod attacking his mother which is understandable but also took the fight from his family farm miles outside of town to the heart of Smallville. That with the Metropolis fight makes it appear like he didn't care about collateral damage compare that to Superman II where Zod realized his want to protect people was his Achilles heel it's a jarring contrast of portrayals of the character and hard for many audience members to reconcile with.

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