1. #23296
    Veteran Member Double 0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    It is also ignorant to pretend a good chunk aren't. Not everything is rich white guys fault.

    It is a giant complex issue that cannot even be touched on in an internet forum where people get points of zingers and over exaggerations.
    It honestly isn't that complex. Rich people, actually rich, not those who make a lot of money but overspend/owe a lot, have way more wiggle room than poor/middle class folks.

    Tax isn't a "punishment", it's an important part of building infrastructure among other things.

    Yes, poor and middle class folks may not have the financial knowledge of wealthier individuals, but doesn't make a flax tax ok. It would put the burden on poor and middle class folks who will definitely need that 10% more than someone who's making way beyond their needs.

    It would also cause a massive decrease in revenue for the government, which would do long term damage to infrastructure, social programs, etc. Harming the middle and lower class even more.


    It's not a good idea.
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  2. #23297
    Genesis of A Nemesis Things Fall Apart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brigonos Chomhgaill View Post
    Bernie lost, so suck it, fans of vital infrastructure - no new roads or fire engines for you!

    Can anyone actually explain how the Democrats' system works? I understand it has something to do with assigning arbitrary numbers of delegates to different sections of the population and then those - party-approved - delegates vote on their choice rather than the aforementioned general population doing so? I'm sure I have that wrong, as it seems an unnecessarily convoluted way of doing it.
    Regarding Iowa democrats, there are just short of 1700 Precincts that are assigned delegates based on population/attendance. People show up and caucus (basically a headcount) and if any candidate gets less than 15% of the total for that precinct they are considered non viable. At that point they can either leave, or switch affiliation. After the pool is redistributed a final count is done and delegates are assigned based on proportion. In our case it was 4 to Sanders, 2 to Clinton.

    Then we vote on who will fill the role of the county level delegates and by vote I mean pretty much everyone wants to go home so the people who volunteer first usually "win".

    Votes aren't actually finalized for quite a while, as there is actually a second caucus for delegates at the state convention but that doesn't usually get reported on.
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  3. #23298
    Veteran Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brigonos Chomhgaill View Post
    Bernie lost, so suck it, fans of vital infrastructure - no new roads or fire engines for you!

    Can anyone actually explain how the Democrats' system works? I understand it has something to do with assigning arbitrary numbers of delegates to different sections of the population and then those - party-approved - delegates vote on their choice rather than the aforementioned general population doing so? I'm sure I have that wrong, as it seems an unnecessarily convoluted way of doing it.
    In Iowa, from what I have read (correct me if I am wrong, someone) the number of delegates per district is based on voter turnout in the last couple of elections (that's general elections, NOT primaries). That assigned number doesn't change based on who votes this time. So, hypothetically, if the last two general elections had a million people show up each time, and during the primary only 5 people show up, those 5 count as if they are a million. The reverse is also true.

    In addition, every Democrat who is a State Governor, a Member of the U.S. Senate or House of Representatives, plus each statewide party head, are all 'Superdelegates' and get a very weighted vote in the primary. Plus there are some former party leaders, 'distinguished party leaders' and some unassigned seats appointed by the state party head who are also superdelegates.

    It is theoretically possible for someone to win the voting booth portion of the primary and lose the nomination based on this, but it hasn't happened in recent history as far as I know.

    The Republican party has it's own primary silliness with a lot of 'winner take all' states. If 51% of the people vote for Trump, then effectively so have the other 49%. Scary thought. There are also few superdelegates on the Republican side, but they still have them. (800+ for the democrats, about 150 for the republicans)

  4. #23299
    Junior Member ospfwildcard's Avatar
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    After watching the pathetic display of coin tossing and hearing ad nauseum about republican civil war it is clear democrats are the ones worse off as a party when all they can offer up is two older than dirt white politicians. two just two. Omally is just a stand in to give the illusion of bench depth.Not to mention a debate schedule that is beyond laughable.

    https://twitter.com/levie/status/694409904795176960

    This sums up the lunacy perfectly

  5. #23300
    Veteran Member CSTowle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spear of Bashenga View Post
    There was a bit of sketch. The caucus chair and Secretary were both hillary supporters and wanted the delegate split to be three and three since Clinton split would have been about 2.3 to Sanders 3.7 based on simple math, but the Sanders supporters squashed that and made sure they certified Sanders 4, Clinton 2. That has less to do with Clinton per se and more to do with local people scrapping for whatever they can get. Really only about three people tried to do things that appeared sketchy and no one was letting them get away with it. I hope that was how it went at the other caucus sites. If not so be it, that's disappointing but not surprising. I've heard rumors of other shenanigans but I haven't looked into it since ultimately I'm most concerned about my precinct and we did it right.
    Eh, I'm sure there are bad actors in every camp. Like the guys at Sanders campaign who copied info during the fall of that voter info firewall. It's disappointing, but not unexpected.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Since there are lots of non-crazy Bernie fans here (I think)...



    Does his tax plans involve just taxing rich people more or is it closing tax loop holes so they actually pay what they should?

    Those two things are totally different... as I am 100% against one and 100% for the other.
    He actually wants to raise taxes on the middle class as well, in order to fund single-payer health insurance and tuition-free college. Neither will happen, and even saying "I'm going to raise your taxes" is probably poisonous to his chances. It's probably the best argument against him that I rarely see raised.

    As to what others have said, the "what counts as income" is the key. When you have people making money on previous investments that can't be taxed because they were already taxed as income before investment, yet those folks are using the money raised on those investments as income, it's pretty easy to work around paying the rate they have for your bracket on the books. Then you have the loopholes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn Hopkins View Post
    CS, I did not read that, and I put you on my ignore list. I regret it, but your feud with me is a distraction to everyone. Whomever is right or wrong, whomever started it, it's best if we don't engage any more.

    If this was a pub, I'd continue. But this is CBR, and I've seen dozens of people get banned after they let themselves get dragged into personality conflicts like this one.
    That's why I kept away from personal insults, angry responses, and the like. Only responded with facts and rational (as I see it) argument. No reason to ban if everyone keeps to that policy. Did call out insults, angry responses, and the like when directed at me but always respectfully and directly and never in kind. I won't put you, or anyone else, on ignore because even and maybe especially when I disagree with someone I want to see arguments or statements I disagree with. Or crazy randomness like the Infernos and Cavemolds of old. But again, I love to argue (respectfully, of course).

    Quote Originally Posted by Brigonos Chomhgaill View Post
    Bernie lost, so suck it, fans of vital infrastructure - no new roads or fire engines for you!

    Can anyone actually explain how the Democrats' system works? I understand it has something to do with assigning arbitrary numbers of delegates to different sections of the population and then those - party-approved - delegates vote on their choice rather than the aforementioned general population doing so? I'm sure I have that wrong, as it seems an unnecessarily convoluted way of doing it.
    Actually Huffpo had a helpful little article:

    http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/...bout-delegates

    Also, you can still get money for local infrastructure. Hillary's probably the wrong horse to back to get that moving, but getting out and voting for a Democratic Congressional Rep/Senator in your area is your best bet. Some Repubs too, though most are so far to the right now they won't even take free money the Federal Government is offering them for Medicare and the like. Do your research.
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  6. #23301
    Veteran Member edhopper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    once again, that is part of the problem that needs fixed IMO. More so that "tax rich people bc they have more money than me."

    I have read those articles, but don't have the time to read them again nor have I memorized the content well enough to get into any debate over it on here. Nor am I interested in that, just really wanted to know where bernie stood in his socialist ideals.
    Okay, just answering you. I wasn't trying to be contentious, if that is how i sounded.

  7. #23302
    Confirmed SJW Shawn Hopkins's Avatar
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    You know what the odds of winning six coin tosses are? 1 in 64.

    Anyway, Hillary is the official winner now, so her gamble seems to have paid off.

  8. #23303
    Elder Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ospfwildcard View Post
    After watching the pathetic display of coin tossing and hearing ad nauseum about republican civil war it is clear democrats are the ones worse off as a party when all they can offer up is two older than dirt white politicians. two just two. Omally is just a stand in to give the illusion of bench depth.Not to mention a debate schedule that is beyond laughable.
    All thte candidates on both sides are just so... nauseating for me this year.

    Can't tell if I am just getting older and my cynical or if they just suck that bad
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  9. #23304
    Genesis of A Nemesis Things Fall Apart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    In Iowa, from what I have read (correct me if I am wrong, someone) the number of delegates per district is based on voter turnout in the last couple of elections (that's general elections, NOT primaries). That assigned number doesn't change based on who votes this time. So, hypothetically, if the last two general elections had a million people show up each time, and during the primary only 5 people show up, those 5 count as if they are a million. The reverse is also true.

    In addition, every Democrat who is a State Governor, a Member of the U.S. Senate or House of Representatives, plus each statewide party head, are all 'Superdelegates' and get a very weighted vote in the primary. Plus there are some former party leaders, 'distinguished party leaders' and some unassigned seats appointed by the state party head who are also superdelegates.

    It is theoretically possible for someone to win the voting booth portion of the primary and lose the nomination based on this, but it hasn't happened in recent history as far as I know.

    The Republican party has it's own primary silliness with a lot of 'winner take all' states. If 51% of the people vote for Trump, then effectively so have the other 49%. Scary thought. There are also few superdelegates on the Republican side, but they still have them. (800+ for the democrats, about 150 for the republicans)
    I've always hated the superdelegate nonsense, it totally undermines the spirit of the caucus.
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  10. #23305
    Veteran Member CSTowle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ospfwildcard View Post
    After watching the pathetic display of coin tossing and hearing ad nauseum about republican civil war it is clear democrats are the ones worse off as a party when all they can offer up is two older than dirt white politicians. two just two. Omally is just a stand in to give the illusion of bench depth.Not to mention a debate schedule that is beyond laughable.

    https://twitter.com/levie/status/694409904795176960

    This sums up the lunacy perfectly
    In fairness to the Dems, it was only supposed to be one. Sanders shouldn't be where he is right now, but he's polling neck and neck for lack of options.

    And the other side of that coin, do you see the "diversity" on the Republican side? I think they'd kill for a Romney (and you really don't get any more "whitebread" than that). As unsatisfied as I am with the likelihood (though by no means wrapped up) of a Clinton nomination, the lone bright spot is looking at the two likely to be matched up. Cruz or Trump (get out of here Rubio with your Iowa Bronze).
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  11. #23306
    Genesis of A Nemesis Things Fall Apart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn Hopkins View Post
    You know what the odds of winning six coin tosses are? 1 in 64.

    Anyway, Hillary is the official winner now, so her gamble seems to have paid off.
    Well she won based on superdelegates regardless, but she's not the "official" winner since we haven't done our state convention yet.
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  12. #23307
    Genesis of A Nemesis Things Fall Apart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ospfwildcard View Post
    After watching the pathetic display of coin tossing and hearing ad nauseum about republican civil war it is clear democrats are the ones worse off as a party when all they can offer up is two older than dirt white politicians. two just two. Omally is just a stand in to give the illusion of bench depth.Not to mention a debate schedule that is beyond laughable.

    https://twitter.com/levie/status/694409904795176960

    This sums up the lunacy perfectly
    Again, the coin tossing is literally meaningless. It's basically just so people can say someone won when there is a perfect 50/50 split. Iowa isn't a winner take all state so unless precinct has odd numbered delegates it's a totally meaningless gesture and just gives them something for the local papers. And clueless assholes on twitter.
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  13. #23308
    Confirmed SJW Shawn Hopkins's Avatar
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    Tha' H-Dog just squeaked by on the popular vote by about 300 votes. If a little more half the people who voted for O'Malley had switched to Bernie, Bernie could have claimed a popular vote victory.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...U1g/edit#gid=0

    Source:

    http://www.politico.com/2016-electio.../iowa?lo=ut_d1

    But vote third party and cast protest votes in the general, though. I'm sure it will be fine.

  14. #23309
    Elder Member TheInvisibleMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSTowle View Post
    In fairness to the Dems, it was only supposed to be one. Sanders shouldn't be where he is right now, but he's polling neck and neck for lack of options.

    And the other side of that coin, do you see the "diversity" on the Republican side? I think they'd kill for a Romney (and you really don't get any more "whitebread" than that). As unsatisfied as I am with the likelihood (though by no means wrapped up) of a Clinton nomination, the lone bright spot is looking at the two likely to be matched up. Cruz or Trump (get out of here Rubio with your Iowa Bronze).
    no one expects diversity out of the Republicans, it has nothing to do with their platform

    the Dems just have a white savior complex, always have, always will
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  15. #23310
    Confirmed SJW Shawn Hopkins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spear of Bashenga View Post
    Well she won based on superdelegates regardless, but she's not the "official" winner since we haven't done our state convention yet.
    Good point. She is the winner, though, no amount of tweeting, redditing, facebooking, whining or rationalizing will change it despite attempts to the contrary.

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