View Poll Results: How will you vote?

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  • I am legally permitted to vote in the referendum: BREXIT!!!

    5 8.77%
  • I am legally permitted to vote in the referendum: BRITAIN STRONGER!!!

    11 19.30%
  • I cannot vote in the referendum... but I'd favour Britain leaving the EU

    11 19.30%
  • I cannot vote in the referendum... but I'd favour Britain staying in the EU

    30 52.63%
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  1. #931
    Senior Member Coin Biter's Avatar
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    The debate on the bill triggering Brexit is winding down, and it will likely sail through the Commons, with the only opposition being one Tory vote (Ken Clarke's), a few dozen rebelling Labour MPs, and the SNP, Lib Dems, and Greens.

    An interesting Polly Toynbee article, praising Clarke, one of the architects of Thatcherism, for his consistent and principled opposition to Brexit: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...alots-european

    For a rolling blog on the debate, which covers PMQs and other political developments as well: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-politics-live
    Last edited by Coin Biter; 02-01-2017 at 06:57 AM.

  2. #932
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    https://www.yahoo.com/news/queen-aut...111603050.html

    Queen Elizabeth II authorises the British PM to begin Brexit.

    Queen Elizabeth II gave royal assent on Thursday to a bill empowering British Prime Minister Theresa May to trigger Article 50 of the EU's Lisbon Treaty and begin the process of leaving the European Union.

    May has said she will send a letter to the European Council informing them of Britain's decision to leave the bloc by the end of March, following a majority vote for Brexit in last year's referendum.
    So the Brexit begins now.

  3. #933
    Senior Member Coin Biter's Avatar
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    Despite the amount of time that has elapsed since the referendum, there is still a remarkable amount of ignorance about the realities of our membership of the EU.

    Ignorance, to be fair, that is consistently demonstrated by the media commentariat. I was watching Sky the other day when some clown said that Brexit meant that we could get rid of much of the "red tape", and said that we would be fine because people were talking about the single market, but the strength of our financial services industry (which would not be touched by Brexit) would carry us through.

    That's about the single worst example he could have chosen, given that the City of London currently benefits from the "single financial passport" that enables any financial services firm authorised in an EEA state to carry out permitted activities in another EEA state. That is very much at risk from Brexit. Losing the single financial passport has the potential to massively increase the red tape encountered by the UK financial services industry, and is one of the reasons why many City institutions are currently making contingency plans to relocate if they deem it necessary.

    And yet, this guy is a media commentator, he speaks on national television, and people listening to him without knowing the situation could well think, wow, this guy has a point, and all these "Remoaners" are creating fictitious obstacles to a great development which will instantly free British institutions from the bureaucratic shackles imposed by an apparently malign EU.

    You can't blame them, as this is the line that several national newspapers and many of the most noisome British pundits have been pushing for at least the last 30 years.
    Last edited by Coin Biter; 03-19-2017 at 02:20 PM.

  4. #934
    Senior Member Coin Biter's Avatar
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    Article 50 to be triggered next Wednesday.

    It's quite probable that this will not just herald the end of the UK's place within the EU, but conceivably the UK itself:

    • It does seem, despite Nicola Sturgeon's recent intervention, that the majority of Scots are currently opposed to independence and to a rerun of the recent independence referendum. It is likely, though, that a large part of this is because of the current economically unfavourable outlook for independence. Brexit, imposed on Scotland against its wishes, will fuel resentments.
    • Northern Ireland was also fundamentally opposed to leaving the EU, not least because of the issues with the border with the Irish Republic.


    In both cases, even the language of British nationalism will have to change: it is difficult for a Conservative politician to blithely announce that we are better together in the UK and to decry, for example, the forces of Scottish separatism when it is precisely a very English/Welsh specific nationalism which is causing Brexit. Any departure of Scotland may, of course, please some English Brexiteers - there's a strong undercurrent of contempt for Scotland in much of the English right.

  5. #935
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    The deadline of Brexit is March 29.

    It is time for Scotland to secede from UK if they want to be in the EU.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/article-5...jtc_news_index

  6. #936
    Senior Member Coin Biter's Avatar
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    Even if Scotland secede from the UK (and May has said they'll have to wait for their referendum until after the deal is finalised) they won't automatically join the EU. They'd have to apply separately, and there's no indication it would be a fast-track process.

    That said, if they did decide to leave and start the process of applying for membership, I might start checking out what the house prices are north of the border To speculate wildly, one of the potential outcomes of Brexit is that it might conceivably kickstart a significant amount of English/Welsh emigration to Scotland, not to mention the emigration/dual citizenship applications that are already taking place for the Republic of Ireland, for those who are eligible.

  7. #937
    Cthulhu's Accountant Shining Trapezohedron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coin Biter View Post
    Even if Scotland secede from the UK (and May has said they'll have to wait for their referendum until after the deal is finalised) they won't automatically join the EU. They'd have to apply separately, and there's no indication it would be a fast-track process.

    That said, if they did decide to leave and start the process of applying for membership, I might start checking out what the house prices are north of the border To speculate wildly, one of the potential outcomes of Brexit is that it might conceivably kickstart a significant amount of English/Welsh emigration to Scotland, not to mention the emigration/dual citizenship applications that are already taking place for the Republic of Ireland, for those who are eligible.
    Actually, there has been talks about fast-tracking Scotland into the EU, but I am not sure how much that will help.
    There is a lot of trading going on between Scotland and the rest of the UK.

  8. #938
    Senior Member Coin Biter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Trapezohedron View Post
    Actually, there has been talks about fast-tracking Scotland into the EU, but I am not sure how much that will help.
    There is a lot of trading going on between Scotland and the rest of the UK.
    Yes, looking at some of the discussions, you're quite right, there have been talks. I would say then that I doubt it will be a fast-track process https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/10/independent-scotland-would-have-to-apply-for-eu-membership .
    I know Verhofstadt from that article has indicated otherwise, but he's also recently suggested that people within the UK would be able to sign in for some kind of individual citizenship to the EU, which I would dearly, passionately, love to be the case, but which I doubt would get past the member states. We don't know for certain, though, and maybe Scotland would have a quicker entry.

    But yes, Scotland's trade with the rest of the UK is a huge issue, and the economic circumstances don't look great for independence. However, who knows what Conservative politicians like IDS and Jacob Rees-Mogg might be able to accomplish. Listening to geezers like that for a protracted period of time almost makes me a Scottish nationalist, and I've spent all my life in England

  9. #939
    Cthulhu's Accountant Shining Trapezohedron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coin Biter View Post
    Yes, looking at some of the discussions, you're quite right, there have been talks. I would say then that I doubt it will be a fast-track process https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/10/independent-scotland-would-have-to-apply-for-eu-membership .
    I know Verhofstadt from that article has indicated otherwise, but he's also recently suggested that people within the UK would be able to sign in for some kind of individual citizenship to the EU, which I would dearly, passionately, love to be the case, but which I doubt would get past the member states. We don't know for certain, though, and maybe Scotland would have a quicker entry.

    But yes, Scotland's trade with the rest of the UK is a huge issue, and the economic circumstances don't look great for independence. However, who knows what Conservative politicians like IDS and Jacob Rees-Mogg might be able to accomplish. Listening to geezers like that for a protracted period of time almost makes me a Scottish nationalist, and I've spent all my life in England
    As a European, I hope that there will be ways for UK citizens to remain with access to the EU.
    That individual citizenship would be nice, because I think we have a lot to give each other.

    You are right though that it certainly seem that the biggest obstacle for Scotland would be the fact that they are dependant on their trading with the rest of the UK.
    Which is, i imagine, going to be the biggest thing going forward.

    First Scotland needs to ensure her citizens are protected, then the question about the splitting up can come up.

  10. #940
    Senior Member mojotastic's Avatar
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    A portion of the Scottish people dont want to leave Great Britain, recent polls shows.
    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/polit...-a3493511.html

  11. #941
    Senior Member mojotastic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Trapezohedron View Post
    As a European, I hope that there will be ways for UK citizens to remain with access to the EU.
    That individual citizenship would be nice, because I think we have a lot to give each other.

    You are right though that it certainly seem that the biggest obstacle for Scotland would be the fact that they are dependant on their trading with the rest of the UK.
    Which is, i imagine, going to be the biggest thing going forward.

    First Scotland needs to ensure her citizens are protected, then the question about the splitting up can come up.
    Even if they were to leave Great Britain there is a new challenger for Scotland, Spain.

    The foreign minister of Spain has already said and quote "If by mutual agreement and by virtue of constitutional change Scotland ended up being independent, our thesis is that it could not stay inside the European Union,” he said this week. “It would have to join the queue, meet the requirements, go through the recognised negotiating system and the end result will be whatever those negotiations produce.”

    Mariano Rajoy, current president of Spain who is a conservative for his party the PP, who see Scotland independence and subsequent participation in the EU, as a danger since it would mean that has a chance Catalan to gain independence, that why they want Scotland to remain outside of the EU so they can dissuade Catalans to follow the same path.

  12. #942
    Veteran Member Abe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mojotastic View Post
    Even if they were to leave Great Britain there is a new challenger for Scotland, Spain.

    The foreign minister of Spain has already said and quote "If by mutual agreement and by virtue of constitutional change Scotland ended up being independent, our thesis is that it could not stay inside the European Union,” he said this week. “It would have to join the queue, meet the requirements, go through the recognised negotiating system and the end result will be whatever those negotiations produce.”

    Mariano Rajoy, current president of Spain who is a conservative for his party the PP, who see Scotland independence and subsequent participation in the EU, as a danger since it would mean that has a chance Catalan to gain independence, that why they want Scotland to remain outside of the EU so they can dissuade Catalans to follow the same path.
    Yes. I was about to post about that. The fear of other European regions trying to gain independence is I think the main issue for an independent Scotland staying in the EU.

    In case of independence , I hope that my country - France - will remember the Auld Alliance and will do everything to help Scotland to stay (see, I can't even write 'join'). ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auld_Alliance )

    If I have some issues with the current state of the EU, I really wanted the UK to stay. An individual citizenship would be nice, but would lead probably to other problems (I didn't took the time to think about it).

    I just hope that things won't be too difficult for all the people who live between UK and UE. I have in mind a married couple - good friends - with the husband (French) working in France but joining his wife (Brazilian and now French) in London every weekend. Also my neighbors in a very small town in Normandy, living in the house near the one I have to take care of (I'm in Paris), who are so great and have to share their time between both countries. Not rich people by the way.

    Just my two cents obviously - but I felt the need to share it with other fellow Europeans of CBR.

  13. #943
    Veteran Member Mr. Mastermind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mojotastic View Post
    Even if they were to leave Great Britain there is a new challenger for Scotland, Spain.

    The foreign minister of Spain has already said and quote "If by mutual agreement and by virtue of constitutional change Scotland ended up being independent, our thesis is that it could not stay inside the European Union,” he said this week. “It would have to join the queue, meet the requirements, go through the recognised negotiating system and the end result will be whatever those negotiations produce.”

    Mariano Rajoy, current president of Spain who is a conservative for his party the PP, who see Scotland independence and subsequent participation in the EU, as a danger since it would mean that has a chance Catalan to gain independence, that why they want Scotland to remain outside of the EU so they can dissuade Catalans to follow the same path.
    Spain's position has always been clear. They'll allow Scotland into the EU and recognise it if it separates with the UK's consent. If they unilaterally declare independence, they won't recognise it and block EU membership.

    EU rules are that any country that separates from a member of the EU will have to reapply, and by the time Scotland separates the UK will have left the EU, even if the referendum is in 2018 (last time the SNP claimed it would take 18 months to leave the UK, the UK will leave the EU in 2019). It probably won't take that long to get in but they'd still have to apply.

  14. #944
    Senior Member Coin Biter's Avatar
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    In other slightly related news, Martin McGuinness has died, to a mixture of eulogies and references to his past. One of the most important figures in recent Northern Irish history.

  15. #945

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    I believe that McGuinness was sincere in his desire for peace, and like many others in Northern Ireland I have a vested interest in hoping his legacy endures. He murdered loads of civilians and then got away with it because of his office, so in many ways McGuinness was the perfect British politician, even if his kill count was a mere fraction of Iain Duncan Smith's - though if nothing else, McGuinness is to be commended for being an equal-opportunity killer rather than just going after the disabled like IDS did.

    I probably shouldn't be flippant like this, just in case any of his victims are reading - it's entirely possible when IDS has destroyed so many lives.

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