View Poll Results: How will you vote?

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  • I am legally permitted to vote in the referendum: BREXIT!!!

    5 8.77%
  • I am legally permitted to vote in the referendum: BRITAIN STRONGER!!!

    11 19.30%
  • I cannot vote in the referendum... but I'd favour Britain leaving the EU

    11 19.30%
  • I cannot vote in the referendum... but I'd favour Britain staying in the EU

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  1. #931
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    https://www.yahoo.com/news/queen-aut...111603050.html

    Queen Elizabeth II authorises the British PM to begin Brexit.

    Queen Elizabeth II gave royal assent on Thursday to a bill empowering British Prime Minister Theresa May to trigger Article 50 of the EU's Lisbon Treaty and begin the process of leaving the European Union.

    May has said she will send a letter to the European Council informing them of Britain's decision to leave the bloc by the end of March, following a majority vote for Brexit in last year's referendum.
    So the Brexit begins now.

  2. #932
    Incredible Member Coin Biter's Avatar
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    Despite the amount of time that has elapsed since the referendum, there is still a remarkable amount of ignorance about the realities of our membership of the EU.

    Ignorance, to be fair, that is consistently demonstrated by the media commentariat. I was watching Sky the other day when some clown said that Brexit meant that we could get rid of much of the "red tape", and said that we would be fine because people were talking about the single market, but the strength of our financial services industry (which would not be touched by Brexit) would carry us through.

    That's about the single worst example he could have chosen, given that the City of London currently benefits from the "single financial passport" that enables any financial services firm authorised in an EEA state to carry out permitted activities in another EEA state. That is very much at risk from Brexit. Losing the single financial passport has the potential to massively increase the red tape encountered by the UK financial services industry, and is one of the reasons why many City institutions are currently making contingency plans to relocate if they deem it necessary.

    And yet, this guy is a media commentator, he speaks on national television, and people listening to him without knowing the situation could well think, wow, this guy has a point, and all these "Remoaners" are creating fictitious obstacles to a great development which will instantly free British institutions from the bureaucratic shackles imposed by an apparently malign EU.

    You can't blame them, as this is the line that several national newspapers and many of the most noisome British pundits have been pushing for at least the last 30 years.
    Last edited by Coin Biter; 03-19-2017 at 02:20 PM.

  3. #933
    Incredible Member Coin Biter's Avatar
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    Article 50 to be triggered next Wednesday.

    It's quite probable that this will not just herald the end of the UK's place within the EU, but conceivably the UK itself:

    • It does seem, despite Nicola Sturgeon's recent intervention, that the majority of Scots are currently opposed to independence and to a rerun of the recent independence referendum. It is likely, though, that a large part of this is because of the current economically unfavourable outlook for independence. Brexit, imposed on Scotland against its wishes, will fuel resentments.
    • Northern Ireland was also fundamentally opposed to leaving the EU, not least because of the issues with the border with the Irish Republic.


    In both cases, even the language of British nationalism will have to change: it is difficult for a Conservative politician to blithely announce that we are better together in the UK and to decry, for example, the forces of Scottish separatism when it is precisely a very English/Welsh specific nationalism which is causing Brexit. Any departure of Scotland may, of course, please some English Brexiteers - there's a strong undercurrent of contempt for Scotland in much of the English right.

  4. #934
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    The deadline of Brexit is March 29.

    It is time for Scotland to secede from UK if they want to be in the EU.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/article-5...jtc_news_index

  5. #935
    Incredible Member Coin Biter's Avatar
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    Even if Scotland secede from the UK (and May has said they'll have to wait for their referendum until after the deal is finalised) they won't automatically join the EU. They'd have to apply separately, and there's no indication it would be a fast-track process.

    That said, if they did decide to leave and start the process of applying for membership, I might start checking out what the house prices are north of the border To speculate wildly, one of the potential outcomes of Brexit is that it might conceivably kickstart a significant amount of English/Welsh emigration to Scotland, not to mention the emigration/dual citizenship applications that are already taking place for the Republic of Ireland, for those who are eligible.

  6. #936
    Cthulhu's Accountant Shining Trapezohedron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coin Biter View Post
    Even if Scotland secede from the UK (and May has said they'll have to wait for their referendum until after the deal is finalised) they won't automatically join the EU. They'd have to apply separately, and there's no indication it would be a fast-track process.

    That said, if they did decide to leave and start the process of applying for membership, I might start checking out what the house prices are north of the border To speculate wildly, one of the potential outcomes of Brexit is that it might conceivably kickstart a significant amount of English/Welsh emigration to Scotland, not to mention the emigration/dual citizenship applications that are already taking place for the Republic of Ireland, for those who are eligible.
    Actually, there has been talks about fast-tracking Scotland into the EU, but I am not sure how much that will help.
    There is a lot of trading going on between Scotland and the rest of the UK.

  7. #937
    Incredible Member Coin Biter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Trapezohedron View Post
    Actually, there has been talks about fast-tracking Scotland into the EU, but I am not sure how much that will help.
    There is a lot of trading going on between Scotland and the rest of the UK.
    Yes, looking at some of the discussions, you're quite right, there have been talks. I would say then that I doubt it will be a fast-track process https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/10/independent-scotland-would-have-to-apply-for-eu-membership .
    I know Verhofstadt from that article has indicated otherwise, but he's also recently suggested that people within the UK would be able to sign in for some kind of individual citizenship to the EU, which I would dearly, passionately, love to be the case, but which I doubt would get past the member states. We don't know for certain, though, and maybe Scotland would have a quicker entry.

    But yes, Scotland's trade with the rest of the UK is a huge issue, and the economic circumstances don't look great for independence. However, who knows what Conservative politicians like IDS and Jacob Rees-Mogg might be able to accomplish. Listening to geezers like that for a protracted period of time almost makes me a Scottish nationalist, and I've spent all my life in England

  8. #938
    Cthulhu's Accountant Shining Trapezohedron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coin Biter View Post
    Yes, looking at some of the discussions, you're quite right, there have been talks. I would say then that I doubt it will be a fast-track process https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/10/independent-scotland-would-have-to-apply-for-eu-membership .
    I know Verhofstadt from that article has indicated otherwise, but he's also recently suggested that people within the UK would be able to sign in for some kind of individual citizenship to the EU, which I would dearly, passionately, love to be the case, but which I doubt would get past the member states. We don't know for certain, though, and maybe Scotland would have a quicker entry.

    But yes, Scotland's trade with the rest of the UK is a huge issue, and the economic circumstances don't look great for independence. However, who knows what Conservative politicians like IDS and Jacob Rees-Mogg might be able to accomplish. Listening to geezers like that for a protracted period of time almost makes me a Scottish nationalist, and I've spent all my life in England
    As a European, I hope that there will be ways for UK citizens to remain with access to the EU.
    That individual citizenship would be nice, because I think we have a lot to give each other.

    You are right though that it certainly seem that the biggest obstacle for Scotland would be the fact that they are dependant on their trading with the rest of the UK.
    Which is, i imagine, going to be the biggest thing going forward.

    First Scotland needs to ensure her citizens are protected, then the question about the splitting up can come up.

  9. #939
    Incredible Member mojotastic's Avatar
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    A portion of the Scottish people dont want to leave Great Britain, recent polls shows.
    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/polit...-a3493511.html

  10. #940
    Incredible Member mojotastic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Trapezohedron View Post
    As a European, I hope that there will be ways for UK citizens to remain with access to the EU.
    That individual citizenship would be nice, because I think we have a lot to give each other.

    You are right though that it certainly seem that the biggest obstacle for Scotland would be the fact that they are dependant on their trading with the rest of the UK.
    Which is, i imagine, going to be the biggest thing going forward.

    First Scotland needs to ensure her citizens are protected, then the question about the splitting up can come up.
    Even if they were to leave Great Britain there is a new challenger for Scotland, Spain.

    The foreign minister of Spain has already said and quote "If by mutual agreement and by virtue of constitutional change Scotland ended up being independent, our thesis is that it could not stay inside the European Union,” he said this week. “It would have to join the queue, meet the requirements, go through the recognised negotiating system and the end result will be whatever those negotiations produce.”

    Mariano Rajoy, current president of Spain who is a conservative for his party the PP, who see Scotland independence and subsequent participation in the EU, as a danger since it would mean that has a chance Catalan to gain independence, that why they want Scotland to remain outside of the EU so they can dissuade Catalans to follow the same path.

  11. #941
    Astonishing Member Abe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mojotastic View Post
    Even if they were to leave Great Britain there is a new challenger for Scotland, Spain.

    The foreign minister of Spain has already said and quote "If by mutual agreement and by virtue of constitutional change Scotland ended up being independent, our thesis is that it could not stay inside the European Union,” he said this week. “It would have to join the queue, meet the requirements, go through the recognised negotiating system and the end result will be whatever those negotiations produce.”

    Mariano Rajoy, current president of Spain who is a conservative for his party the PP, who see Scotland independence and subsequent participation in the EU, as a danger since it would mean that has a chance Catalan to gain independence, that why they want Scotland to remain outside of the EU so they can dissuade Catalans to follow the same path.
    Yes. I was about to post about that. The fear of other European regions trying to gain independence is I think the main issue for an independent Scotland staying in the EU.

    In case of independence , I hope that my country - France - will remember the Auld Alliance and will do everything to help Scotland to stay (see, I can't even write 'join'). ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auld_Alliance )

    If I have some issues with the current state of the EU, I really wanted the UK to stay. An individual citizenship would be nice, but would lead probably to other problems (I didn't took the time to think about it).

    I just hope that things won't be too difficult for all the people who live between UK and UE. I have in mind a married couple - good friends - with the husband (French) working in France but joining his wife (Brazilian and now French) in London every weekend. Also my neighbors in a very small town in Normandy, living in the house near the one I have to take care of (I'm in Paris), who are so great and have to share their time between both countries. Not rich people by the way.

    Just my two cents obviously - but I felt the need to share it with other fellow Europeans of CBR.

  12. #942
    Mighty Member Mr. Mastermind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mojotastic View Post
    Even if they were to leave Great Britain there is a new challenger for Scotland, Spain.

    The foreign minister of Spain has already said and quote "If by mutual agreement and by virtue of constitutional change Scotland ended up being independent, our thesis is that it could not stay inside the European Union,” he said this week. “It would have to join the queue, meet the requirements, go through the recognised negotiating system and the end result will be whatever those negotiations produce.”

    Mariano Rajoy, current president of Spain who is a conservative for his party the PP, who see Scotland independence and subsequent participation in the EU, as a danger since it would mean that has a chance Catalan to gain independence, that why they want Scotland to remain outside of the EU so they can dissuade Catalans to follow the same path.
    Spain's position has always been clear. They'll allow Scotland into the EU and recognise it if it separates with the UK's consent. If they unilaterally declare independence, they won't recognise it and block EU membership.

    EU rules are that any country that separates from a member of the EU will have to reapply, and by the time Scotland separates the UK will have left the EU, even if the referendum is in 2018 (last time the SNP claimed it would take 18 months to leave the UK, the UK will leave the EU in 2019). It probably won't take that long to get in but they'd still have to apply.

  13. #943
    Incredible Member Coin Biter's Avatar
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    In other slightly related news, Martin McGuinness has died, to a mixture of eulogies and references to his past. One of the most important figures in recent Northern Irish history.

  14. #944

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    I believe that McGuinness was sincere in his desire for peace, and like many others in Northern Ireland I have a vested interest in hoping his legacy endures. He murdered loads of civilians and then got away with it because of his office, so in many ways McGuinness was the perfect British politician, even if his kill count was a mere fraction of Iain Duncan Smith's - though if nothing else, McGuinness is to be commended for being an equal-opportunity killer rather than just going after the disabled like IDS did.

    I probably shouldn't be flippant like this, just in case any of his victims are reading - it's entirely possible when IDS has destroyed so many lives.

  15. #945
    EMMA WAS RIGHT!!! Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Post The UK's letter triggering Article 50 [in full]

    Well, for better or for worse, March 29th 2019 is the date Brexit will happen. Theresa May has signed the official document triggering Article 50, which has been delivered to the EU Commissioner yesterday, notifying the EU of Britain's decision to leave the European Union.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39431070
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Dear President Tusk

    On 23 June last year, the people of the United Kingdom voted to leave the European Union. As I have said before, that decision was no rejection of the values we share as fellow Europeans. Nor was it an attempt to do harm to the European Union or any of the remaining member states. On the contrary, the United Kingdom wants the European Union to succeed and prosper. Instead, the referendum was a vote to restore, as we see it, our national self-determination. We are leaving the European Union, but we are not leaving Europe - and we want to remain committed partners and allies to our friends across the continent.

    Earlier this month, the United Kingdom Parliament confirmed the result of the referendum by voting with clear and convincing majorities in both of its Houses for the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill. The Bill was passed by Parliament on 13 March and it received Royal Assent from Her Majesty The Queen and became an Act of Parliament on 16 March.

    Today, therefore, I am writing to give effect to the democratic decision of the people of the United Kingdom. I hereby notify the European Council in accordance with Article 50(2) of the Treaty on European Union of the United Kingdom's intention to withdraw from the European Union. In addition, in accordance with the same Article 50(2) as applied by Article 106a of the Treaty Establishing the European Atomic Energy Community, I hereby notify the European Council of the United Kingdom's intention to withdraw from the European Atomic Energy Community. References in this letter to the European Union should therefore be taken to include a reference to the European Atomic Energy Community.

    This letter sets out the approach of Her Majesty's Government to the discussions we will have about the United Kingdom's departure from the European Union and about the deep and special partnership we hope to enjoy - as your closest friend and neighbour - with the European Union once we leave. We believe that these objectives are in the interests not only of the United Kingdom but of the European Union and the wider world too.

    It is in the best interests of both the United Kingdom and the European Union that we should use the forthcoming process to deliver these objectives in a fair and orderly manner, and with as little disruption as possible on each side. We want to make sure that Europe remains strong and prosperous and is capable of projecting its values, leading in the world, and defending itself from security threats. We want the United Kingdom, through a new deep and special partnership with a strong European Union, to play its full part in achieving these goals. We therefore believe it is necessary to agree the terms of our future partnership alongside those of our withdrawal from the European Union.

    The Government wants to approach our discussions with ambition, giving citizens and businesses in the United Kingdom and the European Union - and indeed from third countries around the world - as much certainty as possible, as early as possible.

    I would like to propose some principles that may help to shape our coming discussions, but before I do so, I should update you on the process we will be undertaking at home, in the United Kingdom.

    As I have announced already, the Government will bring forward legislation that will repeal the Act of Parliament - the European Communities Act 1972 - that gives effect to EU law in our country. This legislation will, wherever practical and appropriate, in effect convert the body of existing European Union law (the "acquis") into UK law. This means there will be certainty for UK citizens and for anybody from the European Union who does business in the United Kingdom. The Government will consult on how we design and implement this legislation, and we will publish a White Paper tomorrow. We also intend to bring forward several other pieces of legislation that address specific issues relating to our departure from the European Union, also with a view to ensuring continuity and certainty, in particular for businesses. We will of course continue to fulfil our responsibilities as a member state while we remain a member of the European Union, and the legislation we propose will not come into effect until we leave.

    From the start and throughout the discussions, we will negotiate as one United Kingdom, taking due account of the specific interests of every nation and region of the UK as we do so. When it comes to the return of powers back to the United Kingdom, we will consult fully on which powers should reside in Westminster and which should be devolved to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. But it is the expectation of the Government that the outcome of this process will be a significant increase in the decision-making power of each devolved administration.

    The United Kingdom wants to agree with the European Union a deep and special partnership that takes in both economic and security cooperation. To achieve this, we believe it is necessary to agree the terms of our future partnership alongside those of our withdrawal from the EU.

    If, however, we leave the European Union without an agreement the default position is that we would have to trade on World Trade Organisation terms. In security terms a failure to reach agreement would mean our cooperation in the fight against crime and terrorism would be weakened. In this kind of scenario, both the United Kingdom and the European Union would of course cope with the change, but it is not the outcome that either side should seek. We must therefore work hard to avoid that outcome.

    It is for these reasons that we want to be able to agree a deep and special partnership, taking in both economic and security cooperation, but it is also because we want to play our part in making sure that Europe remains strong and prosperous and able to lead in the world, projecting its values and defending itself from security threats. And we want the United Kingdom to play its full part in realising that vision for our continent.

    Looking ahead to the discussions which we will soon begin, I would like to suggest some principles that we might agree to help make sure that the process is as smooth and successful as possible.


    EDIT [FOR THE 5 POINT SEE THE BBC ARTICLE]

    As I have said, the Government of the United Kingdom wants to agree a deep and special partnership between the UK and the EU, taking in both economic and security cooperation. At a time when the growth of global trade is slowing and there are signs that protectionist instincts are on the rise in many parts of the world, Europe has a responsibility to stand up for free trade in the interest of all our citizens. Likewise, Europe's security is more fragile today than at any time since the end of the Cold War. Weakening our cooperation for the prosperity and protection of our citizens would be a costly mistake. The United Kingdom's objectives for our future partnership remain those set out in my Lancaster House speech of 17 January and the subsequent White Paper published on 2 February.

    We recognise that it will be a challenge to reach such a comprehensive agreement within the two-year period set out for withdrawal discussions in the Treaty. But we believe it is necessary to agree the terms of our future partnership alongside those of our withdrawal from the EU. We start from a unique position in these discussions - close regulatory alignment, trust in one another's institutions, and a spirit of cooperation stretching back decades. It is for these reasons, and because the future partnership between the UK and the EU is of such importance to both sides, that I am sure it can be agreed in the time period set out by the Treaty.

    The task before us is momentous but it should not be beyond us. After all, the institutions and the leaders of the European Union have succeeded in bringing together a continent blighted by war into a union of peaceful nations, and supported the transition of dictatorships to democracy. Together, I know we are capable of reaching an agreement about the UK's rights and obligations as a departing member state, while establishing a deep and special partnership that contributes towards the prosperity, security and global power of our continent.

    Yours Sincerely,
    Theresa May


    Last edited by Kieran_Frost; 03-30-2017 at 12:58 AM.
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