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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Don't you think it is a little simplistic to make Woden or Baal, Sky Gods. The categories are somewhat flawed if you do that. For example, just because Lucifer has a 'star' doesn't make him a sky god but is he really and underworld god either?
    Lucifer is underworld "god" because Lucifer reigns in Hell.

    Why would Woden and Baal not be sky gods? Its not really a judgement on good or bad although I suppose any god could be underworld or sky pretty much.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Don't you think it is a little simplistic to make Woden or Baal, Sky Gods. The categories are somewhat flawed if you do that. For example, just because Lucifer has a 'star' doesn't make him a sky god but is he really and underworld god either?
    I wasn't placing judgments, but merely categorizing as I read the text.

    Doesn't Woden have an outburst because he wasn't trusted with Sky God intel?

    I'm sure Sky-Underworld is a spectrum, with Amaterasu at one end and Morrigan at the other.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by JediKage View Post
    Lucifer is underworld "god" because Lucifer reigns in Hell.

    Why would Woden and Baal not be sky gods? Its not really a judgement on good or bad although I suppose any god could be underworld or sky pretty much.
    Lucifer is not Satan. Different aspect. Lucifer is the light-bringer, the most beloved of god.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    I wasn't placing judgments, but merely categorizing as I read the text.

    Doesn't Woden have an outburst because he wasn't trusted with Sky God intel?

    I'm sure Sky-Underworld is a spectrum, with Amaterasu at one end and Morrigan at the other.
    I don't trust such categories. They are reminiscent of comparative religious theory, which is a somewhat dated approach to mythology.

  5. #80
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    I don't see why you are overreacting to it...the actual comic doesn't imply that being Sky makes you good and being Underworld makes you bad.

    Dio is like the nicest. While Woden is the worst.

    Granted Sky Gods have a bonus job of actually fighting the Great Darkness but still.

    But mythological gods did tend to have domains.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I don't trust such categories. They are reminiscent of comparative religious theory, which is a somewhat dated approach to mythology.
    How so, and opposed to what? If you don't mind detailing what you mean.

  7. #82
    Astonishing Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    To clarify, I am not reacting, just expressing a preference born out of my studies in the field of mythology. Also, I imagine Gillen has done some research regards theories of mythology, and I doubt he has deliberately chosen to use old fashioned methods. Judging by Cassandra's attitude (who seems to be the mouthpiece he uses to express theoretical ideas) that seems pretty unlikely. Therefore I doubt such categories will really inform a reading of this text.


    Cassie would over react. She would tell you to take that colonial thinking elsewhere. I am not her.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 07-13-2017 at 07:54 AM.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    To clarify, I am not reacting, just expressing a preference born out of my studies in the field of mythology. Also, I imagine Gillen has done some research regards theories of mythology, and I doubt he has deliberately chosen to use old fashioned methods. Judging by Cassandra's attitude (who seems to be the mouthpiece he uses to express theoretical ideas) that seems pretty unlikely. Therefore I doubt such categories will really inform a reading of this text.


    Cassie would over react. She would tell you to take that colonial thinking elsewhere. I am not her.
    Okay, but I'm genuinely interested. I was hoping you'd give me some kind of primer on how to understand your perspective.

    I realize some cultures and mythologies don't recognize underworlds or pantheons, but in the context of WicDiv, we're given both, and a seeming ultimate purpose(albeit from an unreliable sourse) for "sky gods" to "confront a great darkness".

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    Okay, but I'm genuinely interested. I was hoping you'd give me some kind of primer on how to understand your perspective.

    I realize some cultures and mythologies don't recognize underworlds or pantheons, but in the context of WicDiv, we're given both, and a seeming ultimate purpose(albeit from an unreliable sourse) for "sky gods" to "confront a great darkness".
    I am really not sure that is true. Some division was created, and used by Ananke for her own ends, and there is a hangover from those times now. But the Underworld as a concept means different things to different cultures, and I suspect Gillen is being looser and more playful. Certainly he used the Persephone story in a playful way.

    I see Baal as being used to emphasise masculinity and patriarchy, and Woden in his aspect as magician. Neither are acting particularly like the typical distant sky god, overseeing creation.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I am really not sure that is true. Some division was created, and used by Ananke for her own ends, and there is a hangover from those times now. But the Underworld as a concept means different things to different cultures, and I suspect Gillen is being looser and more playful. Certainly he used the Persephone story in a playful way.
    So you're calling the context of the story unreliable? That the Underworld, as a plane inaccessible to some god-characters, doesn't exist in the context of the story --but except as a suggestion by Ananke to divide the pantheon? I hope to god I'm misunderstanding you, because what I read was incredibly evasive and dismissive to my request for clarification.

    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I see Baal as being used to emphasise masculinity and patriarchy, and Woden in his aspect as magician. Neither are acting particularly like the typical distant sky god, overseeing creation.
    It seems obvious the "gods" are not one-to-one matches for the myths they are named for, and far more likely to be adjacent to archetypes, but this all began with a simple, shared categorization.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    So you're calling the context of the story unreliable? That the Underworld, as a plane inaccessible to some god-characters, doesn't exist in the context of the story --but except as a suggestion by Ananke to divide the pantheon? I hope to god I'm misunderstanding you, because what I read was incredibly evasive and dismissive to my request for clarification.
    I find it quite amusing that you would demand anything in this context. Quite what you want me to clarify is beyond me.

    What are you seeing as a plane of existence? All I am seeing is an aspect of one or two characters that are able to pull people underground. I don't see any evidence of planes or strange realms. And I especially don't see any evidence of the opposite, some above realm where the supposed sky gods can go, and underworld deities can't enter. Just some characters that can fly and levitate, and some that can teleport.

    What we actually have are characters that have specific powers, nominally tied to certain deities that share some of those traits. These are superheroes with a theme.

    It seems obvious the "gods" are not one-to-one matches for the myths they are named for, and far more likely to be adjacent to archetypes, but this all began with a simple, shared categorization.
    I am simply suggesting that such categorisation, while an interesting exercise in and of itself, is probably not very useful as a predictive tool for how this story will progress.

    Even the word 'archetype' is up for examination by this kind of story. It is certainly a disputed term in mythological studies. Mostly confined to Jungian thought, which despite its popularity in modern culture, is looked at as somewhat old fashioned as an analytical tool.

    Of course Gillian may be working with this kind of model, but I am suggesting that if he is it may be in a challenging manner.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 07-16-2017 at 06:48 AM.

  12. #87
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    Wikdiv moves back into its more controversial mode again, with changes to the icons and a new skull. This motif has been there from the start, and there is no reason to think that just because Ananke is gone, that the pantheon will not continue to kill each other. Here we have a death that feels just a little contrived. You can see it coming a mile away, and the fact that Baal couldn't is on him (unless we go with the conspiracy that he is continuing Ananke's work).

    Amaterasu is shown to be as naive as ever, bringing up father's with Sakhmet, as if everyone had an idyllic childhood, and as if everyone thinks the colonial heritage of the British Empire is just delightful. At least she is aware of her privilege when it comes to the Museum.

    Exactly why Sakhmet was visiting the British Museum's Egyptian collection is interesting. I doubt very much it was just to 'play tourist'. Maybe there is more to this killing than the obvious reminders of the past. Clearly it takes more than happy family feelings to pacify Sakhmet. Getting her (and everyone else) drunk was the traditional way, else she destroy humanity with conflict and warfare. Sakhmet may even have been calming herself before the statues that represent her.

    Given that Percy is probably the only person that knew she would be there, this outcome is only going to make things worse, and we may be about to move into a phase of open warfare. The rising sun flag evoked in the final splash page, certainly evokes the 'Imperial Phase' we are currently in. Even in death Amaterasu remains a symbol.

    Then we have the other less complete changes to the pantheon circle. Woden has made his move and apparently pulled the wool over Cassie's eyes. Distracting her at just the right moment, and then subverting their divination ritual. I don't think anyone should be surprised by this either, with Dio symbolically replacing his acolyte Orpheus in the clasping hands of the Maenads. I knew this was coming, sometimes my vague knowledge of classical myth and half understood readings of Calasso pay off. But then I suppose we all knew this was coming by the time we saw his red eyes and lack of concentration.

    I imagine the fact the icons are not yet skulls suggests these characters are not yet dead. I don't imagine Dio will survive, but Cassie may. I can't imagine Gillen dispensing with his most knowing side. Who would he mock himself with then?

    Then with a mirror of the Imperial Japanese, we get Woden's rock and roll fascism represented by that classic Queen, double fist salute. Does Gillen agree with Dave Marsh?
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 09-07-2017 at 03:29 AM.

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