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  1. #31
    Say banana one more time! cyberhubbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Precisely.
    Barely anybody remembers her. There is uncomfortable bagage attached to the character. Why re-use her?

    Better to create a new character (whose movie rights explicitely not tied up in Spider-Man's, I might add) that is actually untouched than re-use a frankly very bland character that is basically untouched.

    And when I ask why re-use her instead of creating a new character, I would like an answer that goes into some detail and offers some benefits over creating a new character that more than negate the drawbacks...
    Because she already has a foundation to build up from. Former victim of possession, so right there is established drama. More-or-less normal compared to Loki's other children, so now she's a stock broker, or used to be, and trying to either deal with her heritage or deny it while living her normalish life. Maybe have her join a support group for victims of possession, instant pool of supporting characters to draw from and add to. And while all of that can be done with a new character, I like the tradition of mining history, be it recent or older.

    Of course, the one main thing that separates s her from a new character is the favor promised by her father. Maybe she wants to fulfill it somehow.

    Sure, yeah, movie rights. Good reason why it probably wouldn't happen. Then again, Marvel and Sony are working together on Spider-Man, so maybe it's no longer as big an issue.

  2. #32
    Rachel Grey-Summers Sardorim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantom Roxas View Post
    Either way, the gunshot was a direct cause for her being put in a coma, and yet none of the people Peter asked for help could have even healed her? Even if you change what they couldn't save her problem, the issue is that it's unbelievable that they could not have saved her at all.
    Apparently Peter never heard of those like Elixir.

  3. #33
    Marquis de Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sardorim View Post
    Apparently Peter never heard of those like Elixir.
    I vaguely recall Elixir actually being in that story, and being unable to help. At the very least he sought out the Mutants with healing abilities.

    When people say the story was stupid and made no sense, they really mean that the story was stupid and mad no sense.
    So this Zealot comes to my door, all glazed eyes and clean reproductive organs, asking me if I ever think about God. So I tell him I killed God. I tracked God down like a rabid dog, hacked off his legs with a hedge trimmer, and boiled off his corpse in an acid bath. So he pulls an alternating-current taser on me and tells me that only the Official Serbian Church of Tesla can save my polyphase intrinsic electric field, known to non-engineers as "the soul". So I hit him. What would you do?

  4. #34
    Veteran Member Phantom Roxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sardorim View Post
    Apparently Peter never heard of those like Elixir.
    Yeah, Elixir especially is one that's stood out to me. I don't see him singled out much, just that… well, I haven't read it myself, so maybe you can verify this for me, but didn't Elixir have his own heart destroyed at some point? At the very least, whether it's a bullet wound or a coma, I would assume that it's well within Elixir's abilities to heal Aunt May.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    I vaguely recall Elixir actually being in that story, and being unable to help. At the very least he sought out the Mutants with healing abilities.

    When people say the story was stupid and made no sense, they really mean that the story was stupid and mad no sense.
    Elixir being unable to help just reinforces why the Doctor Strange scene is so terrible: It goes out of its way to present many people who could help, yet they somehow cannot. Out of all of the people Peter met, there wasn't even a single person? Not even something like "By the way, I also asked this other person for help, so maybe if you two worked together, maybe you could heal Aunt May?"

    One More Day is four issues of poor padding devoted to making an effort to show why it won't make an effort to follow on possible methods of resolving the story.

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by MJS View Post
    Oh please this is comic books where people are healed of life threatening wounds every day with no basis in real life science at all. Peter brings back May because of "love" even though his spider-powered chest compresses should have killed her then and there and that's okay with you, but the smartest minds and most magical beings in the Marvel universe being unable to bring an elderly woman out of a coma thanks to a gunshot wound must all of sudden adhere to Web MD standards?
    If the argument is that it's obvious that the smartest minds in the Marvel U would be able to save her, the science does have to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantom Roxas View Post
    Doctor Strange is the Sorcerer Supreme and a former surgeon. Even if the recovery isn't immediate, he could have at least offered some idea that might have helped.

    But this is moving the goalposts. The real reason Aunt May could not recover is not because of real world logic as it applies to comas. Joe Quesada required Aunt May to be in danger, and he explicitly ruled out any possibility of healing her, as restoring her would resolve the source of conflict: Aunt May's injury. But that injury was only a starting point to drive the story towards the actual intent of the story: Erasing the marriage. If the goal of the story is to erase the marriage, and the only way to achieve this is by juxtaposing it against Aunt May's life, then Aunt May's life had to remain in danger until the marriage could be given up. It's poor story structure. Doctor Strange's purpose in the story is to rule out other methods of healing Aunt May so that making a deal with a Hell Lord would seem acceptable.
    There are plenty of times writers put characters in particular situations for a particular reason. I wouldn't call it poor story structure; it's just story structure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    I vaguely recall Elixir actually being in that story, and being unable to help. At the very least he sought out the Mutants with healing abilities.

    When people say the story was stupid and made no sense, they really mean that the story was stupid and mad no sense.
    He visited Beast, and Beast was unable to offer any help, so presumably the mutant healers were unavailable.

    Even with a healer, it's not clear what they could do to someone in a coma.

    If someone has been severely injured, a magic spell that does specific things (IE- repair muscle tissue, reset bone, remove toxins from blood) could help. There aren't specific suggestions for what would have helped Aunt May.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  6. #36
    Say banana one more time! cyberhubbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    If the argument is that it's obvious that the smartest minds in the Marvel U would be able to save her, the science does have to work.

    There are plenty of times writers put characters in particular situations for a particular reason. I wouldn't call it poor story structure; it's just story structure.

    He visited Beast, and Beast was unable to offer any help, so presumably the mutant healers were unavailable.

    Even with a healer, it's not clear what they could do to someone in a coma.

    If someone has been severely injured, a magic spell that does specific things (IE- repair muscle tissue, reset bone, remove toxins from blood) could help. There aren't specific suggestions for what would have helped Aunt May.
    Elixir also has one big drawback to his power, in that he needs to know how to fix it. And while he does have Beast's scientific knowledge thanks to the Cuckoos, he still needs to be able to pinpoint the problem. He doesn't just transfer healing energies, he manipulates biology.

    That's a little harder to fix when the coma is magical in nature.
    Last edited by cyberhubbs; 06-13-2016 at 11:17 AM.

  7. #37
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    OMD had a huge problem in that Doctor Strange scene. If that simply wasn't present and Peter went to as many people as he knew of, and as he was capable of in that time frame, then it could be argued he could be tempted by Mephisto's help. However, Peter went to everyone and nobody could treat a bullet wound/fixing a coma. Doctor Doom could do that in his sleep and yet Peter went to him and he couldn't help.

    Whats more silly for me is that Peter even went to Tony Stark first. Tony had access to Extremis and could have made it so Aunt May had gotten a version of that serum and been fine, fixing whatever damage was done. Loki's favor wasn't even an issue as Peter simply had to either steal some or have Tony do it himself.
    To make matters worse is that there was an easy out down the line with Secret Invasion. A Spider-man tie-in could have made it so a Skrull posing as Spider-man inserts itself in Peter Parker's life, and when he is discovered everyone becomes doubtful of the real Peter being Spider-man. Now nobody knows for sure due to how long the skrulls may have been on Earth. Peter plays dumb through the whole thing and problem solved. The marriage could even be annulled as Mary Jane could become shaken up over the whole mess and not know who she really married. She could come back but the marriage is "erased" and events are still kept relevant for Peter with little continuity headaches. There could have even been a tie in showing Aunt May was secretly a Skrull alongside Jarvis to quietly tie that up.

    Instead we get Peter bitching for four issues when there are a number of solutions to this problem.
    -----------------------------------
    For anyone that needs to know why OMD is awful please search the internet for Linkara' s video's specifically his One more day review or his One more day Analysis.

  8. #38
    Marquis de Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberhubbs View Post
    That's a little harder to fix when the coma is magical in nature.
    The coma was not ever presented as being magical in nature though.
    So this Zealot comes to my door, all glazed eyes and clean reproductive organs, asking me if I ever think about God. So I tell him I killed God. I tracked God down like a rabid dog, hacked off his legs with a hedge trimmer, and boiled off his corpse in an acid bath. So he pulls an alternating-current taser on me and tells me that only the Official Serbian Church of Tesla can save my polyphase intrinsic electric field, known to non-engineers as "the soul". So I hit him. What would you do?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    If the argument is that it's obvious that the smartest minds in the Marvel U would be able to save her, the science does have to work.
    My point is real life science ISN'T applied when Peter does save her but that's apparently fine with you. So which is it, real life science applies or real life science doesn't apply?

  10. #40
    Veteran Member Phantom Roxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    There are plenty of times writers put characters in particular situations for a particular reason. I wouldn't call it poor story structure; it's just story structure.
    That's a very vague generalization, and other writers putting characters in particular situations for particular reasons in other stories does not make this one specific story's own writing any less poor. As I said, "Doctor Strange's purpose in the story is to rule out other methods of healing Aunt May so that making a deal with a Hell Lord would seem acceptable." To put this another way, while other writers do put characters in particular situations for a particular reason, a good writer would also provide a plausible explanation for why the character cannot get out of that situation. One More Day's attempt at such an explanation was unsatisfying, so the situation was not properly justified, so the reason the situation was built - to maintain the dichotomy of the Aunt May's life or Peter and Mary Jane's marriage - does not have a plausible foundation. And if you can't justify the situation, then there's no way to call this other than poor story structure.

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by MJS View Post
    My point is real life science ISN'T applied when Peter does save her but that's apparently fine with you. So which is it, real life science applies or real life science doesn't apply?
    I think real life science is applied to that scene in the sense that comas work in strange ways. It's not impossible for Peter's presence to be the tipping point between Aunt May recovering or dying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantom Roxas View Post
    That's a very vague generalization, and other writers putting characters in particular situations for particular reasons in other stories does not make this one specific story's own writing any less poor. As I said, "Doctor Strange's purpose in the story is to rule out other methods of healing Aunt May so that making a deal with a Hell Lord would seem acceptable." To put this another way, while other writers do put characters in particular situations for a particular reason, a good writer would also provide a plausible explanation for why the character cannot get out of that situation. One More Day's attempt at such an explanation was unsatisfying, so the situation was not properly justified, so the reason the situation was built - to maintain the dichotomy of the Aunt May's life or Peter and Mary Jane's marriage - does not have a plausible foundation. And if you can't justify the situation, then there's no way to call this other than poor story structure.
    JMS provided a plausible explantion for why the character can't get out of that situation. He asked, and the other heroes couldn't do anything.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  12. #42
    Veteran Member Phantom Roxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I think real life science is applied to that scene in the sense that comas work in strange ways.
    One Moment In Time suggests that all Aunt May needed was CPR. Although it was written after One More Day, it was still written by Joe Quesada. You said "Even if somone has magical healing powers, they'd usually have to do something specific to get a civilian to recover. When someone's in a coma, it's not clear what the solution is, a major reason so few people recover from comas in the real world." Well, according to One Moment In Time, any of the people Peter visited could have said that the specific thing to do to get Aunt May to recover would have been CPR, as it's clear that it was the solution.

    One Moment In Time supports the idea that if Peter had performed CBR during One More Day, Aunt May would have recovered. There is nothing to support the idea that the coma was under Mephisto's thumb. As such, One Moment In Time retroactively suggests that One More Day did have a potential explanation, but they just didn't take it. Now, I can believe that Quesada simply did not think about CPR at the time One More Day was being written, but One Moment In Time was designed to answer questions raised by One More Day. So you either take OMIT to show that OMD simply neglected CPR as a possibility, or if you choose to only look at OMD, then my previous post holds up, as without a sufficient explanation on why Aunt May could not have recovered, the source of conflict creates a poor story structure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    JMS provided a plausible explantion for why the character can't get out of that situation. He asked, and the other heroes couldn't do anything.
    Source? What were his exact words? Because if One Moment In Time is any indication, the other heroes could have just done CPR.
    Last edited by Phantom Roxas; 06-13-2016 at 03:02 PM.

  13. #43
    Say banana one more time! cyberhubbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    The coma was not ever presented as being magical in nature though.
    No one can revive her from the coma, Mephisto shows up, points out they're on a time crunch, deal is made and suddenly Peter can bring her out of the coma despite the doctor later pointing out that he should not have been able to and he had no scientific explanation, ultimately chalking it up to the 'power of love.'

    Sounds like Mephisto meddling with his magic to me.
    Last edited by cyberhubbs; 06-13-2016 at 03:12 PM.

  14. #44
    Marquis de Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberhubbs View Post
    No one can revive her from the coma, Mephisto shows up, points out they're on a time crunch, deal is made and suddenly Peter can bring her out of the coma despite the doctor later pointing out that he should not have been able to and he had no scientific explanation, ultimately chalking it up to the 'power of love.'

    Sounds like Mephisto meddling with his magic to me.
    It's not in the text. You'd reckon Doctor Strange would be able to recognise a magical coma...
    So this Zealot comes to my door, all glazed eyes and clean reproductive organs, asking me if I ever think about God. So I tell him I killed God. I tracked God down like a rabid dog, hacked off his legs with a hedge trimmer, and boiled off his corpse in an acid bath. So he pulls an alternating-current taser on me and tells me that only the Official Serbian Church of Tesla can save my polyphase intrinsic electric field, known to non-engineers as "the soul". So I hit him. What would you do?

  15. #45
    Say banana one more time! cyberhubbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    It's not in the text. You'd reckon Doctor Strange would be able to recognise a magical coma...
    Mephisto covered his tracks well.

    But I'm sure everyone here always demands explicit explanations in all their fiction.

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