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  1. #91
    Veteran Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrodite's Champion View Post
    well im speaking solely from a cinematic perspective not really the actual comics which might be where the disagreement may lie. I just took my own personal feelings about the movies and thought about some of the main critics the movies get and to me the direction of humanizing him more was a good one but the problem was that the mood and execution of the film since hollywood blockbuster goers are their for action and optimism and the way those movies ended weren't obviously optimistic enough for most people
    Ah, okay, I see what you're saying now. Cinema representation only; sorry I was thinking of the whole franchise, comics and other media formats included.

    That does present a problem, as a lot of Clark's best traits are things you slowly unfold, like an onion, and movies only have so many minutes in them.

    Though, to look at the bolded part....you might be onto something here.

    Summer blockbusters are meant to be empty popcorn fun. They're not designed to encourage a lot of thought or analysis or tackle serious social issues, they're just meant to hit you in the face with entertainment for a couple hours.

    I wonder how well Man of Steel and BvS would have done if they had been released in the winter? Winter films tend to be the more dramatic, serious ones that are enhanced by some post-viewing consideration (at least it seems so to me, but I dont study film so Im just going with my gut here).

    Would DC be better served by making their films winter/early spring releases? Take advantage of the christmas shopping rush or the "taxes just came in!" spending spurge in the spring? Now, just looking at the surface, winter films rarely make as much money as the summer releases, with a few exceptions like Harry Potter, but there are externalities to take into account as well. The reviews for MoS were mixed, and BvS even more so. BvS especially made serious bank its first week, and then plummeted afterwards as critics began bombing it. But if the films were released in a different, non-summer season where people are expecting something a little more cerebral, odds are those films might have gotten more positive reviews, which would have encouraged more people to see them once the critics started dropping their opinions after the opening weekend. It might be possible that MoS and BvS would have made just as much money in the winter as they did in the summer, just over a slightly longer period of time, and with better reviews which would in turn positively impact blu-ray sales, merchandise, and ticket sales for the sequel/s. Not to mention it would mean DC wouldnt have to compete with Marvel's releases as directly as they do in the summer months, which is a fight DC wont win.

    WB certainly know their stuff better than I do so I assume they've considered this, though I feel fairly confident that I know comics better, and I gotta wonder if they ever stopped and thought about these films as something other than "superhero" movies that by Hollywood law must be summer blockbusters.
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  2. #92
    Veteran Member L.R Johansson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Ah, okay, I see what you're saying now. Cinema representation only; sorry I was thinking of the whole franchise, comics and other media formats included.

    That does present a problem, as a lot of Clark's best traits are things you slowly unfold, like an onion, and movies only have so many minutes in them.

    Though, to look at the bolded part....you might be onto something here.

    Summer blockbusters are meant to be empty popcorn fun. They're not designed to encourage a lot of thought or analysis or tackle serious social issues, they're just meant to hit you in the face with entertainment for a couple hours.

    I wonder how well Man of Steel and BvS would have done if they had been released in the winter? Winter films tend to be the more dramatic, serious ones that are enhanced by some post-viewing consideration (at least it seems so to me, but I dont study film so Im just going with my gut here).

    Would DC be better served by making their films winter/early spring releases? Take advantage of the christmas shopping rush or the "taxes just came in!" spending spurge in the spring? Now, just looking at the surface, winter films rarely make as much money as the summer releases, with a few exceptions like Harry Potter, but there are externalities to take into account as well. The reviews for MoS were mixed, and BvS even more so. BvS especially made serious bank its first week, and then plummeted afterwards as critics began bombing it. But if the films were released in a different, non-summer season where people are expecting something a little more cerebral, odds are those films might have gotten more positive reviews, which would have encouraged more people to see them once the critics started dropping their opinions after the opening weekend. It might be possible that MoS and BvS would have made just as much money in the winter as they did in the summer, just over a slightly longer period of time, and with better reviews which would in turn positively impact blu-ray sales, merchandise, and ticket sales for the sequel/s. Not to mention it would mean DC wouldnt have to compete with Marvel's releases as directly as they do in the summer months, which is a fight DC wont win.

    WB certainly know their stuff better than I do so I assume they've considered this, though I feel fairly confident that I know comics better, and I gotta wonder if they ever stopped and thought about these films as something other than "superhero" movies that by Hollywood law must be summer blockbusters.
    Ey, Ascended, what's your take on Captain America, and how Marvel, through their films, has managed to make a US-patriotic character a global icon?
    (this point was a much-discussed fact before his first film came out - would people in other countries be interested in seeing this movie? Could they accept the character? The answer is, of course, a resounding H*LL YES, SON!)

    DC showing their movies during the winter isn't a half-bad idea actually - it could make for some good christmas-films. (Batman Returns comes to mind, as a real-deal christmas-movie)

    I think the competitive streak in the top echelons of WB won't do it though - because that would mean admitting defeat at the hands of Disney, and that will never stand.


    Quote Originally Posted by Darkspellmaster View Post
    Can I say bravo to this post! Seriously this is a huge point. Captain America gets lots of kudos from people because he actually is that honest person, its the same thing for superman. There's an innocents to both of them that pushes them to be the best they can and strive for doing the right thing. It's what makes people want to be like them. Most people I know from my age group (30s into 20s) tend to want to be like Superman in that they want to be someone upright and honest. They see him as someone to look up to and feel that they want to try to be a better person. Same thing with Captain America.

    You really don't need to modernize him, you want him to remain timeless because that's why the character is remembered, because he can fit in at any time.
    Cheers mate. = ) Yeah, this is why this constant talk falls apart - it's been proven that a more clearly morally defined character can indeed work - so the fault is NOT in the character - it's in those that would present him to the audience.

    And, to be frank, I think DC is WOEfully mistaken on how that should be done - which is a conundrum, because if you give it some thought, it comes naturally.
    I think this is what Marvel has done so well - they aren't ashamed of their characters, about their quirkiness or ridiculousness.

    So, present him as he is. Don't try and make any apologies or alterations to the audience - he IS Superman.

    That's enough.
    Last edited by L.R Johansson; 07-27-2016 at 12:03 PM.

  3. #93
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    I think the way to modernize Superman is to make him a 45 years old married dad. Focus on his son and his struggles with his powers.

    Maybe have him fight Doomsday, for some freshness.

  4. #94
    Veteran Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by L.R Johansson View Post
    Ey, Ascended, what's your take on Captain America, and how Marvel, through their films, has managed to make a US-patriotic character a global icon?
    (this point was a much-discussed fact before his first film came out - would people in other countries be interested in seeing this movie? Could they accept the character? The answer is, of course, a resounding H*LL YES, SON!)
    I think the first two Cap films did a great job all around. Winter Soldier is one of my favorite Marvel films ever and First Avenger was the best of the Phase 1 films (other than the first Iron Man). I think Civil War never should have been a movie in the first place, at least not yet, and I think it never should have been a Cap film, it should have been an Avengers movie. But even then, I think the MCU Cap is one of the best characters in the genre.

    In regards to the possibility of alienating other countries with a flag waving patriot, I think Marvel made a very clever and smart move when they decided to portray Cap as a guy who doesnt blindly follow the line. Given the tension between the US and other regions (especially China, who can make or break a movie's international Box Office) this could have blown up in their faces, but they made it work for them in a way that, from both a business perspective and a fan's, I am in awe of. There's a difference between being a "patriot" and being an "establishment man" and I think placing Steve firmly in the former was a stroke of brilliance. Having Steve clearly and visibly go against his country and against orders, often to the benefit of more nations than just the States, was a stroke of brilliance and smoothed over a lot of the potential problems. That's the difference between Captain America being seen as a propaganda piece and being seen as a great character who will work for the benefit of everyone, regardless of politics.

    In regards to how that connects to Superman.....that's a little harder to nail down. Superman, really, isnt any more of a patriot than your standard American who loves his country. He doesnt answer to the government, he doesnt typically do them any favors. In fact he actually goes against the government quite often, or at the least makes decisions he knows will make their jobs harder. There's a lot of outlaw in Superman, much moreso than Steve and more than Superman's reputation would have you beleive. But despite this outlaw history, Superman is seen by many as being as much a patriot/soldier/establishment figure as Captain America. So I think that, when you write Superman correctly, politics and national pride dont actually play that much into it. How the world perceives that is another matter however. Around the world he very much is seen as an American icon. But writing Superman doesnt mean you're writing a flag waving soldier, so despite popular (wrong) opinion I think its largely a non-issue.

    DC showing their movies during the winter isn't a half-bad idea actually - it could make for some good christmas-films. (Batman Returns comes to mind, as a real-deal christmas-movie)

    I think the competitive streak in the top echelons of WB won't do it though - because that would mean admitting defeat at the hands of Disney, and that will never stand.
    Probably true. It makes me sad that ego has trumped smart business. Well, I assume its smart business, but Im not in movies so for all I know WB is doing the right thing here (summer flicks make a lot more bank and these films are expensive as hell). Though I would like to see a (modern) winter release, just to compare.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

    Discipline = Freedom.

    Invincible: The greatest superhero comic in the universe!

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