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  1. #211
    Rookie Member yojimbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    Ouch! Like I said it's been awhile since I read the old Spidey stories, I guess in my mind I equate the Ditko years with Pete being in high school.

    I think either way...whether they did or didn't, would be equally plausible.

    I believe though it was JMS's original intent that the twins would have been Pete's but the story was changed due to Joe Q's insistence.
    Yes, JMS' original idea was that the twins were Peter's. And to be honest it would have made more sense (it would have still been a horrible story though).

  2. #212
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    I just watched a doc called Sex in The Comix. It's short but covers some interesting types of comics ( although mostly erotica satire) and is pretty international in it's scope. No superheroes, though. Manara. Crepax gets mentioned. Europen and Asian artists i wasn't too familiar with. American is represented mostly by Crumb and his wife and some women's lib era underground comics.



    It's on Netflix and You tube for now
    Last edited by ed2962; 05-23-2016 at 03:42 PM.

  3. #213
    Spectacularly Neurotic Sharkerbob's Avatar
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    Yeah, I'm responding to old posts. Sue me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Further to my post above, I don't see THIS (below) as ever necessary to show in superhero comics. :

    You know, necessary or not, it's nice to see superhumans actually using their powers for sex for once. I mean, there's so much kink potential. Not that we need to see it in a regular all-ages comic, but still.


    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    Earlier this week I was talking with other posters on a different thread about Luke Cage's love life and mentioning Bendis made me think of this scene


    The thing that bugged me about it was the way grown men were speaking as if they were adolescents in a locker room. It played like a scene out of Porky's which would have been fine if Tony and Cap were teens, but they're supposed to be adults.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spike-X View Post
    I dunno, I can see that being in character for Stark and Cap. Thor, not so much.
    I recognize that Bendis-speak anywhere! BEEEENNNDIIIISS!!!

    Alright, not to bash the guy too much, but this particular scene is a good example of how he stumbles a lot with character voice. They sound like adolescents, because that's the the way the Bendis writes virtually all of his characters (at least, how he wrote them at the time). It's that clipped, quick, back-and-forth quippiness that somehow sounds halfway between how teens speak and how they text on their phones. This is a big reason why I hated and couldn't keep up with any of Bendis' Avengers. The guy has exactly two character voices: monologues and "teenager quippiness." This means whenever any character is talking about hooking up or dating or whatever, you get this locker-room jargon or awkward stumbling, regardless of whose speaking.

    I dunno, maybe he's gotten better since then, but this always bugged the hell out of me.

  4. #214
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    In general terms, American comics don't handle sex well, at all (especially mainstream comics) and relationships, even when handled well, are usually undone by the serial nature of most comic book stories. For the longest time, Marvel only had Reed and Sue and their relationship was always troubled and sex was something only even implied in the fact that they had a child. Peter and Mary Jane had a nice relationship, under certain creators, though they fare pretty well, under most of their creative teams, until it was thrown out the window. DC had several happy couples, in the Bronze Age; but started unraveling most of them by the 80s and 90s. Ironically, its' also when they finally grew up a bit about Superman. Even then, serial storytelling and outside forces worked to undermine it. Clark and Lois were intended to be married before the tv series came along, so the comics were forced to put the brakes on it, then jumpstart it when the tv show was faltering and went to the wedding well.

    Starman actually had a pretty good handle on things throughout the run, both in terms of casual relationships, committed ones, and even friendships. It also handled gay relationships well. And yet, this is the same writer who throws out dialogue (in another series) about Hal Jordan having a threesome with Huntress and Lady Blackhawk, without their voice in the story. It was simply a way of making Hal into some kind of sexual god. meanwhile, when Ralph and Sue Dibny apepared later in Starman, Robinson portrayed them as a real loving couple, who were also best friends. He got what made them special and why so many were outraged by Identity Crisis, beyond the idea of these heroes sanctioning mindwiping. Sue was offered up as cannon fodder by a writer who cared nothing about her, other than to be a murder victim whose death would upset both characters and readers.

    The indie world has been much better, particularly series that don't focus on adventure, like Strangers in Paradise and Love & Rockets. relationships can be messy; but, the read as true. Sex depends on the creator. Some have used it for satire and some have been very sensitive about using it as an aspect of a truly adult relationship.

    Europe is often cited; but, I think that varies quite a bit. They are more casual about it and their stories are often less repressed; but, many use it rather gratuitously. Some of it is done as pure erotica, which is a different area than most American comics. One of the creators I always felt used it well, within the context of his stories and in a mature manner, is Vittorio Giardino, creator of No Pasaran!, A Jew in Communist Prague, Oriental Gateway, and Hungarion Rhapsody. He has done erotica, like Litte Ego, an erotic parody of Little Nemo in Slumberland (with an adult woman, not a child); but, he has sexual situations in his other stories. It never seems to exist to mark it as adult. He just tells mature stories. For instance, A Jew in Communist Prague focuses on a young man, named Jonas Fink, whose father was jailed by the Communist regime. His life includes advances made by an older woman; but, it is not portrayed as erotic. Jonas is uncomfortable and the woman is drawn as a real mature woman, not a sexpot or model.
    Last edited by codystarbuck; 05-25-2016 at 03:59 PM.

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharkerbob View Post
    Yeah, I'm responding to old posts. Sue me.




    You know, necessary or not, it's nice to see superhumans actually using their powers for sex for once. I mean, there's so much kink potential. Not that we need to see it in a regular all-ages comic, but still.






    I recognize that Bendis-speak anywhere! BEEEENNNDIIIISS!!!

    Alright, not to bash the guy too much, but this particular scene is a good example of how he stumbles a lot with character voice. They sound like adolescents, because that's the the way the Bendis writes virtually all of his characters (at least, how he wrote them at the time). It's that clipped, quick, back-and-forth quippiness that somehow sounds halfway between how teens speak and how they text on their phones. This is a big reason why I hated and couldn't keep up with any of Bendis' Avengers. The guy has exactly two character voices: monologues and "teenager quippiness." This means whenever any character is talking about hooking up or dating or whatever, you get this locker-room jargon or awkward stumbling, regardless of whose speaking.

    I dunno, maybe he's gotten better since then, but this always bugged the hell out of me.
    It just bugged me because of the teenage nature of the dialogue. In my mind Cap and Thor should be a little more mature. Tony might brag about a date but not like this.

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by codystarbuck View Post
    In general terms, American comics don't handle sex well, at all (especially mainstream comics) and relationships, even when handled well, are usually undone by the serial nature of most comic book stories. For the longest time, Marvel only had Reed and Sue and their relationship was always troubled and sex was something only even implied in the fact that they had a child. Peter and Mary Jane had a nice relationship, under certain creators, though they fare pretty well, under most of their creative teams, until it was thrown out the window. DC had several happy couples, in the Bronze Age; but started unraveling most of them by the 80s and 90s. Ironically, its' also when they finally grew up a bit about Superman. Even then, serial storytelling and outside forces worked to undermine it. Clark and Lois were intended to be married before the tv series came along, so the comics were forced to put the brakes on it, then jumpstart it when the tv show was faltering and went to the wedding well.

    Starman actually had a pretty good handle on things throughout the run, both in terms of casual relationships, committed ones, and even friendships. It also handled gay relationships well. And yet, this is the same writer who throws out dialogue (in another series) about Hal Jordan having a threesome with Huntress and Lady Blackhawk, without their voice in the story. It was simply a way of making Hal into some kind of sexual god. meanwhile, when Ralph and Sue Dibny apepared later in Starman, Robinson portrayed them as a real loving couple, who were also best friends. He got what made them special and why so many were outraged by Identity Crisis, beyond the idea of these heroes sanctioning mindwiping. Sue was offered up as cannon fodder by a writer who cared nothing about her, other than to be a murder victim whose death would upset both characters and readers.

    The indie world has been much better, particularly series that don't focus on adventure, like Strangers in Paradise and Love & Rockets. relationships can be messy; but, the read as true. Sex depends on the creator. Some have used it for satire and some have been very sensitive about using it as an aspect of a truly adult relationship.

    Europe is often cited; but, I think that varies quite a bit. They are more casual about it and their stories are often less repressed; but, many use it rather gratuitously. Some of it is done as pure erotica, which is a different area than most American comics. One of the creators I always felt used it well, within the context of his stories and in a mature manner, is Vittorio Giardino, creator of No Pasaran!, A Jew in Communist Prague, Oriental Gateway, and Hungarion Rhapsody. He has done erotica, like Litte Ego, an erotic parody of Little Nemo in Slumberland (with an adult woman, not a child); but, he has sexual situations in his other stories. It never seems to exist to mark it as adult. He just tells mature stories. For instance, A Jew in Communist Prague focuses on a young man, named Jonas Fink, whose father was jailed by the Communist regime. His life includes advances made by an older woman; but, it is not portrayed as erotic. Jonas is uncomfortable and the woman is drawn as a real mature woman, not a sexpot or model.
    I think that line in CFJ about Hal was some kind of misguided attempt at making Hal look "cool". He came back not that long before and DC was still trying to let fans know "this ain't yer Dad's GL!" ( also see Hal punching out Batman, etc) I want to say that Gail Simone or someone retconned that scene? I didn't read the comic but Lady Blackhawk or whoever says, "Hal got drunk at a party and passed out, next thing we know we're hearing all these stories about how he hooked up with everybody!"

    I think you're right about indie comics creators. The writers/artists can at least do the story the way they want whether realism or titillation without the concern of corporate IPs or editors or audiences freaking out about "change".


    I'd heard of Little Ego although I've never read it. A Jew in Communist Prague sounds interesting.

  7. #217
    Spectacularly Neurotic Sharkerbob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    It just bugged me because of the teenage nature of the dialogue. In my mind Cap and Thor should be a little more mature. Tony might brag about a date but not like this.
    That's my point. Bendis writes/wrote all characters like that. They all sound like kids from Ultimate Spider-Man's High School.

    Last edited by Sharkerbob; 05-25-2016 at 06:31 PM.

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    I think that line in CFJ about Hal was some kind of misguided attempt at making Hal look "cool". He came back not that long before and DC was still trying to let fans know "this ain't yer Dad's GL!" ( also see Hal punching out Batman, etc) I want to say that Gail Simone or someone retconned that scene? I didn't read the comic but Lady Blackhawk or whoever says, "Hal got drunk at a party and passed out, next thing we know we're hearing all these stories about how he hooked up with everybody!"

    I think you're right about indie comics creators. The writers/artists can at least do the story the way they want whether realism or titillation without the concern of corporate IPs or editors or audiences freaking out about "change".


    I'd heard of Little Ego although I've never read it. A Jew in Communist Prague sounds interesting.
    Giardino is a hell of a storyteller, regardless of the seriousness of the tale. Little Ego is a cute piece of work and I'd rate it ahead of Manara, in terms of the storytelling.

    Early in the thread, I saw Crepax mentioned. He's an amazing artist, in a visual sense; but, his erotic work is very much on the darker side of things, adapting BDSM literary works like The Story of O and Justine. Valentina was a little lighter, though it tread a lot in that territory. His Man from Harlem was more of a straightforward drama. He's very stylized and very much an artist's artist.

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by codystarbuck View Post
    Giardino is a hell of a storyteller, regardless of the seriousness of the tale. Little Ego is a cute piece of work and I'd rate it ahead of Manara, in terms of the storytelling.

    Early in the thread, I saw Crepax mentioned. He's an amazing artist, in a visual sense; but, his erotic work is very much on the darker side of things, adapting BDSM literary works like The Story of O and Justine. Valentina was a little lighter, though it tread a lot in that territory. His Man from Harlem was more of a straightforward drama. He's very stylized and very much an artist's artist.
    I'm aware of Crepax although I'm not an expert on his work. I vaguely remember Man From Harlem being serialized in Heavy Metal...

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by codystarbuck View Post
    Starman actually had a pretty good handle on things throughout the run, both in terms of casual relationships, committed ones, and even friendships. It also handled gay relationships well. And yet, this is the same writer who throws out dialogue (in another series) about Hal Jordan having a threesome with Huntress and Lady Blackhawk, without their voice in the story. It was simply a way of making Hal into some kind of sexual god. meanwhile, when Ralph and Sue Dibny apepared later in Starman, Robinson portrayed them as a real loving couple, who were also best friends. He got what made them special and why so many were outraged by Identity Crisis, beyond the idea of these heroes sanctioning mindwiping. Sue was offered up as cannon fodder by a writer who cared nothing about her, other than to be a murder victim whose death would upset both characters and readers.


    Didn't Gail retcon it so that Hal merely passed out drunk and nothing else happened?

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Didn't Gail retcon it so that Hal merely passed out drunk and nothing else happened?
    Yeah she did, as Brian Cronin recently covered. That was kind of my point. She was ticked off about the original line and had the characters address it in a similar matter, via a line of dialogue. Why Robinson went there, except to make Hal into some kind of "mack daddy," to appeal to 15 year-olds is beyond me. In Starman, he probably would have had the character called out by the woman (or women, in this case) in question. It would have been a source of character conflict. That's what disappoints me. He's a better writer than that. I've only recently acquired Airboy, but haven't read it yet. I know that he addresses some of his writing problems and personal issues, though you never exactly know how much is truth and how much is for story effect. He has spoken, in broad terms, about some of his issues in the Starman omnibi. Personally, I always felt Hollywood did him no favors. His work was pretty consistently very good to great, up through Leave It To Chance. It seems like its been a struggle ever since he came back from Hollywood.

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