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  1. #661
    Astonishing Member Tazpocalapse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ţh€ €жţяą-๏яďɨɲąя₯ Tycon View Post
    Yeah, I heard the spoilers and that David spoilers:
    raped his girlfriend
    end of spoilers.

    ...fuck this show.
    I wouldn't call it rape , because the context did not show that Syd did not want to have the interaction with David. The question to me is if David was controlling her mind which did not seem to be the case. Syd did not say that she wanted David to stop and seemed to be into it a little. As a matter of fact a scene with the Admiral shows him watching many screens. One of Syd in her room where she is on her bed simulating what appears to be sex with some one not there. So i think that the real issue is how David affected her mind after she tried to shoot him. That is the"creepy" part of the situation.

  2. #662
    Astonishing Member Maestroneto's Avatar
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    It's almost as if Syd and David both belong in a psychiatric institute because of their traumas and disorders.

  3. #663
    Extraordinary Member SpiderClops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ţh€ €жţяą-๏яďɨɲąя₯ Tycon View Post
    Yeah, I heard the spoilers and that David spoilers:
    raped his girlfriend
    end of spoilers.

    ...fuck this show.
    Syd raped[by deception] her mother's boyfriend. That was much more clear cut than what I'm hearing David did.
    “Indifference and neglect often do much more damage than outright dislike.”
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  4. #664

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    Quote Originally Posted by donpricetag View Post
    Because of that? I could understand you being upset if David was still a protagonist but he's not. He's the antagonist now. To each his own.
    No matter how far people take the "it's in a different universe" road, you can't fundamentally separate a cinematic incarnation from their comic incarnation. That was an incredible disservice to Legion and fans of the character. There are ways to make a leap to villainy without rape.

    http://www.multiversitycomics.com/tv/legion-chapter-19/

    Quote Originally Posted by Tazpocalapse View Post
    I wouldn't call it rape , because the context did not show that Syd did not want to have the interaction with David. The question to me is if David was controlling her mind which did not seem to be the case. Syd did not say that she wanted David to stop and seemed to be into it a little. As a matter of fact a scene with the Admiral shows him watching many screens. One of Syd in her room where she is on her bed simulating what appears to be sex with some one not there. So i think that the real issue is how David affected her mind after she tried to shoot him. That is the"creepy" part of the situation.
    http://www.vulture.com/amp/2018/06/l...mpression=true

    I think we gotta stop dancing around whether or not it was rape. Even Noah Hawley considered it to be seen that way, with consent being thrown out the window.

    The finale is pretty brutal.

    Yeah.

    I think people are going to have a strong reaction to the scene where David rapes Syd after altering her memory. How concerned were you about making your protagonist do something like that, and what were your concerns about doing that to a female character?

    I mean, for me, the whole show started with this idea, even before I had assigned a character to it. It was just: What can I do in this genre? I felt like, for the genre to be great, it would have to be a great show regardless of the genre. I thought, Well, it would be interesting if it was a supervillain story on some level. To say, How do you take a character from a sympathetic place to an unsympathetic place?

    That doesn’t mean that David is going to stay there, because obviously, in the X-Men universe, characters cross back and forth. You have Magneto, who, sometimes he’s on the right side, and sometimes he’s on the wrong side. With David, there was always this underlying question of, “Is he mentally ill or does he have these powers? Or both? Does he have these powers but he’s also mentally ill because just of the experience of living with these powers for 30-plus years?” If you’re in a psychiatric hospital and you’re hearing voices and you’re seeing things, even if those are your powers, at a certain point, your personality develops around them. He has this vulnerability, personality-wise and psychically. I liken it to Fargo on some level. In Fargo, at some point, there’s always a moment where the worst person in the show says, “I’m the victim here.”

    From David’s point of view, he had this really traumatic event in his childhood that he’s never recovered from. There’s part of him that, in a very understandable way, is still a small child going, “I’m a good person and I deserve love.” You can rationalize a lot of things based on feeling like you’re the victim and you deserve something. In his mind, it’s okay to make Syd forget how she feels about him and then rob her of all consent because they’re in love. In his mind, it’s a love story and it’s going to end as a love story. Of course, watching it, it’s a little creepy for us because we realize, “Hold on, this genre’s not supposed to do that. We’re not supposed to have our protagonist who, as she says, ‘You drugged me and had sex with me.’”

    I mean, look, it’s controversial. I don’t know what the conversation will be, but I think it’s worth having the conversation about consent and about the fact that there is no justification for acting without another person’s consent. And, as she said, “I’m the hero and you’re just another villain.” On some level, that’s the story of the show. The question is, is there any redemption for him coming out of that? And where do we go next?
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderClops View Post
    Syd raped[by deception] her mother's boyfriend. That was much more clear cut than what I'm hearing David did.
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderClops View Post
    Syd swaps bodies with her mother and has sex with her boyfriend without him being aware of it. Or are we going to give her the "she was a kid!" excuse? She was old enough.

    If you can forgive her, then you must forgive David.
    People were talking about how bad that was, as well. Who was ever in the talks of "forgiving her"? Not me, at the very least. The whole deal with Davis reeks of the dangerous "abuse victims become the abusers" rhetoric that demonizes domestic abuse/sexual assault victims.
    Last edited by ţh€ €жţяą-๏яďɨɲąя₯ Tycon; 06-14-2018 at 08:31 AM.

  5. #665
    Twitter: @theprattlp donpricetag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maestroneto View Post
    It's almost as if Syd and David both belong in a psychiatric institute because of their traumas and disorders.
    After seeing Syd so willing to murder David in cold blood made me question her mental state too. Remember she was in psych ward too and wasn't acting all that stable either. I don't think there are any characters in this show above reproach, which I think is the point.
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  6. #666
    Extraordinary Member SpiderClops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ţh€ €жţяą-๏яďɨɲąя₯ Tycon View Post
    No matter how far people take the "it's in a different universe" road, you can't fundamentally separate a cinematic incarnation from their comic incarnation. That was an incredible disservice to Legion and fans of the character. There are ways to make a leap to villainy without rape.



    People were talking about how bad that was, as well. Who was ever in the talks of "forgiving her"?
    I just checked this thread when that episode came out. I was the only one who even talked about what Syd did. Nobody else even mentioned it.
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  7. #667
    Twitter: @theprattlp donpricetag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ţh€ €жţяą-๏яďɨɲąя₯ Tycon View Post
    No matter how far people take the "it's in a different universe" road, you can't fundamentally separate a cinematic incarnation from their comic incarnation. That was an incredible disservice to Legion and fans of the character. There are ways to make a leap to villainy without rape.


    ... I didn't say anything about the universe and I'm not giving David a pass. Your confusing my comments with others. And your probably not going to find a bigger fan of Legion the character than me. Been my favorite antihero/villain since Legion Quest and other than this last run (that ignores everything), own everything he's in. If you want to boil down the whole show's worth with one act then I can't fault you for it. Do your thing.
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  8. #668
    Astonishing Member AbnormallyNormal's Avatar
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    Hawley did say he thinks David may be redeemed still though. Like I said I think the fact Amy's consciousness lives on within Lenny may be the key to it, and David separating from D3/Summerland might give him the "space" required to ultimately wrestle with his own problems and begin to heal while not in denial about who he is
    Chris Claremont, Peter David, Mike Carey, Cullen Bunn = canon. Others = fanfic.

  9. #669
    Astonishing Member Tazpocalapse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ţh€ €жţяą-๏яďɨɲąя₯ Tycon View Post
    No matter how far people take the "it's in a different universe" road, you can't fundamentally separate a cinematic incarnation from their comic incarnation. That was an incredible disservice to Legion and fans of the character. There are ways to make a leap to villainy without rape.

    http://www.multiversitycomics.com/tv/legion-chapter-19/



    http://www.vulture.com/amp/2018/06/l...mpression=true

    I think we gotta stop dancing around whether or not it was rape. Even Noah Hawley considered it to be seen that way, with consent being thrown out the window.






    People were talking about how bad that was, as well. Who was ever in the talks of "forgiving her"? Not me, at the very least. The whole deal with Davis reeks of the dangerous "abuse victims become the abusers" rhetoric that demonizes domestic abuse/sexual assault victims.
    Thanks for the link to the interview. My assessment of the situation was based on what i saw on camera. So to me the scene looked like they were just having another one of their psychic unions except it was not in the white room. Hawtley states that David robbed her of consent so i guess he is talking about that scene as well as when he alters her mind after she shot at him.

  10. #670
    Astonishing Member AbnormallyNormal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazpocalapse View Post
    Thanks for the link to the interview. My assessment of the situation was based on what i saw on camera. So to me the scene looked like they were just having another one of their psychic unions except it was not in the white room. Hawtley states that David robbed her of consent so i guess he is talking about that scene as well as when he alters her mind after she shot at him.
    No... he just meant the mind alteration scene. Because by erasing Syd's conviction about David that he is the true monster/threat , not Shadow King, that "resets" her personality back to just being his girlfriend like before she learned all that stuff. And then she consented to sex with him but the point is that wasn't the "true her" at that point since David erased a part of her mind (until Shadow King restored it via the mouse whispering)
    Chris Claremont, Peter David, Mike Carey, Cullen Bunn = canon. Others = fanfic.

  11. #671
    Astonishing Member Tazpocalapse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    No... he just meant the mind alteration scene. Because by erasing Syd's conviction about David that he is the true monster/threat , not Shadow King, that "resets" her personality back to just being his girlfriend like before she learned all that stuff. And then she consented to sex with him but the point is that wasn't the "true her" at that point since David erased a part of her mind (until Shadow King restored it via the mouse whispering)
    Ah ok. I was wondering about that thanks for the clarification.

  12. #672
    Astonishing Member Soulsword323's Avatar
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    What was done to Syd, went way too far, and wasn't necessary. They really should have just stopped at Legion mentally manipulating her. That alone was enough reason to have them turn on David. I mean he also nearly killed Oliver. The point of him going too far was being made. I'm still a fan of the show, but don't think they should have crossed that line again.

    However, that being said, I too am waiting for Syd to be held accountable for her actions. Not once, but twice does she bring up what she did to her mother's boyfriend, and both times gave zero shits. Its odd to see so many people (and I'm talking about professionals) who reviewed this episode, seem to glaze over Syd's own actions.

  13. #673
    Astonishing Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ţh€ €жţяą-๏яďɨɲąя₯ Tycon View Post
    No matter how far people take the "it's in a different universe" road, you can't fundamentally separate a cinematic incarnation from their comic incarnation. That was an incredible disservice to Legion and fans of the character. There are ways to make a leap to villainy without rape.

    http://www.multiversitycomics.com/tv/legion-chapter-19/



    http://www.vulture.com/amp/2018/06/l...mpression=true

    I think we gotta stop dancing around whether or not it was rape. Even Noah Hawley considered it to be seen that way, with consent being thrown out the window.






    People were talking about how bad that was, as well. Who was ever in the talks of "forgiving her"? Not me, at the very least. The whole deal with Davis reeks of the dangerous "abuse victims become the abusers" rhetoric that demonizes domestic abuse/sexual assault victims.
    I've never not fundamentally separated a comic version of a character from a TV or film version of the characters.

  14. #674
    Twitter: @theprattlp donpricetag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulsword323 View Post
    What was done to Syd, went way too far, and wasn't necessary. They really should have just stopped at Legion mentally manipulating her. That alone was enough reason to have them turn on David. I mean he also nearly killed Oliver. The point of him going too far was being made. I'm still a fan of the show, but don't think they should have crossed that line again.

    However, that being said, I too am waiting for Syd to be held accountable for her actions. Not once, but twice does she bring up what she did to her mother's boyfriend, and both times gave zero shits. Its odd to see so many people (and I'm talking about professionals) who reviewed this episode, seem to glaze over Syd's own actions.
    I don't think anything went too from a writing standpoint. Unpleasant things happen in real life. To tip-toe around it and pretend they don't in a drama series just to make it so people don't feel uncomfortable, would be doing the story itself a disservice. What matters is how it's addressed and what comes next. In this case, David had to stand trial with the threat of being executed. It considered a betrayal and called that at least twice in the episode. He was confronted with his wrongdoing(s) and had to deal with what he did; unlike what happens in a lot of other shows such as Game of Thrones where at times anatagonists go seasons without getting their comeupance. However, in the discussion whether if this was David forcing himself on her... she obviously felt violated. Having sex is a mutual agreement and David made her forget a key part of her day that would have influenced her decision. Theres very little difference between that and slipping a drug into someone's drink that puts them into a daze so significant, they can't even tell where they are or what's happening to them, despite whether they seem to be going with it or not.
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  15. #675

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderClops View Post
    I just checked this thread when that episode came out. I was the only one who even talked about what Syd did. Nobody else even mentioned it.
    .....I wasn't referring only to CBR, but alright. Mutuals on Twitter had talked about the shitty stuff Syd did in her mom's body.

    Quote Originally Posted by donpricetag View Post
    ... I didn't say anything about the universe and I'm not giving David a pass. Your confusing my comments with others. And your probably not going to find a bigger fan of Legion the character than me. Been my favorite antihero/villain since Legion Quest and other than this last run (that ignores everything), own everything he's in. If you want to boil down the whole show's worth with one act then I can't fault you for it. Do your thing.
    Not just one act. I had that link there to summarize everything I had a problem with as far as the show goes. But this just sealed the deal, essentially.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tazpocalapse View Post
    Thanks for the link to the interview. My assessment of the situation was based on what i saw on camera. So to me, the scene looked like they were just having another one of their psychic unions except it was not in the white room. Hawtley states that David robbed her of consent so i guess he is talking about that scene as well as when he alters her mind after she shot at him.
    NP.

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