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  1. #1621
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Thunders! View Post
    It breaks my heart to read that so many Superman fans don't think Superboy works as a concept. There are so many great Superboy stories, the first Bizarro story is a Superboy story! And the Legion of Superheroes, I just don't know where to begin. And Krypto, Krypto and Superboy... Imagine you are the most powerful kid on the planet, you have no one that can keep up with you, and then, one day, you get a dog that can play with you through time and space. (That is until you meet the Legion!)

    As far as Thanos tossing a planet or whatever, it just amazes me that fans will accept that, he's got the Infinity Gauntlet so of course! But suggest Chris Reeve can turn back time? Of course not!

    Superman use to get the same break for all of his feats. Move a planet, remember his infancy, whatever. I just figured he was Superman, he had Superpowers, he knew how to use them and the physics catch up on their own time.

    Also as far as fighting goes, I would take Superman and his skills after studying martial arts for 10 minutes over any fighter on the planet. Superman has to regain the power of his name.

    In Raimi's Spiderman, Aunt May tells Tobey Maguire, "You can't do it all, you're not Superman." That's how I see it, Superman can do it all.
    I'm of mixed feelings on the character. The reboot happened halfway through my childhood so I grew up with mixed versions of both pre-and post-Crisis. The Donner movies defined the character for me growing up and most of the TV versions I knew were inspired by it. Things like the Superboy TV show and the Ruby Spears Superman did more to define the character for me than the comics did. So you have A super-boy but you don't have THE Superboy (keep in mind, in the TV show he was in college when he started his career). This is why I guess I liked the Smallville method of handling the character, it split the difference. Which is closer to what I grew up understanding the character as. In terms of the pre-Crisis version, I didn't discover it until my teens and all the stuff like Kandor and Krypto and the Fortress fascinated me. Now, as an adult, I'm able to look at it more critically than I did then.

    I don't oppose the idea of Superboy but I do understand why it's important to have him debut as Superman. And I'm really not comfortable with dumping that kind of responsibility on a child. Remember, in the pre-Crisis universe he started his career at age 8. I have no real emotional attachment to the Legion so I could take or leave them. This is (one of many) reasons I also have an affinity for the Golden Age Superman. He grew up with powers but wasn't a Superboy in the official sense. That makes a lot of sense to me. Again, these are just my personal experiences and everyone is a product of what they grew up knowing. I can understand why someone who grew up with, say, the TAS not being comfortable with a costumed Superboy.
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  2. #1622
    Mighty Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    What I have to remember is, these ideas change. There's always a Superboy out there. Clark, Kon El, or Jon. The only problem I see is when they are both learning to be Superman. It can be redundant characterization if both are just learning the ropes. Marvel origins seem so much simpler and timeless. Batmans as well.

  3. #1623
    Fantastic Member Timmyb52's Avatar
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    Since Superboy and The Legion of Superheroes was some of the first comics I ever read...Superboy will always mean a lot for me. However, IMO I think Superboy works best as being largely unknown in his own time but working mostly in the future with the Legion and I never cared too much about his Smallville adventures at all.

  4. #1624
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Thunders! View Post
    What I have to remember is, these ideas change. There's always a Superboy out there. Clark, Kon El, or Jon. The only problem I see is when they are both learning to be Superman. It can be redundant characterization if both are just learning the ropes. Marvel origins seem so much simpler and timeless. Batmans as well.
    Superman with a son is sort of new territory that I think everyone, including DC, is still getting used to. They had Chris about ten years ago but they never really ran with him the way they are Jon. I think Returns kind of soured people on the idea back then and it's a little more palatable now. Especially after the New 52. It would be interesting to know if Chris is still canon.
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  5. #1625
    So much HYPE dawg! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    In terms of the fictional universe, I've never read a first time story that was so good that it paid off for me. I really never got that sense that people were gob-smacked by Superman's first appearance.
    Guess that's a failing on the writer's part or just your personal take away.


    It gets even more complicated if the JSA exists on the same Earth.
    I think the JSA should be on the same Earth and come long before Superman. I also don't think it gets in the way of the awe of Superman showing up for the first time.

    On the other hand, it's not a foregone conclusion that anyone would call Clark "Superboy" unless they saw him up close. If he's always flying and speeding and doing massively impressive things--no one is going to be that observant and call him Superboy at first glance.
    Sounds like he may as well be Superboy in secret then.

    I believe the more compelling story right now is the story where Clark becomes Super in Smallville--rather than waiting to get to Metropolis.
    No one--at the very least I'm not saying that he shouldn't start his deeds in Smallville. I just don't think he needs to be public. I think it's stronger if he comes out when he's a bit older.

    That's not to say I'm totally opposed to the idea of him coming out as Superboy. I just think the "hey, call me Superman now" thing is not as strong.


    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Thunders! View Post
    It breaks my heart to read that so many Superman fans don't think Superboy works as a concept.
    Well that's not what I'm saying at the very least. I think Clark operating as some form of Superboy is a pretty strong and worthwhile concept to explore.

    A compromise might be to take a play from Max Landis' playbook: basically have it so Superboy is a town secret and an urban legend in the rest of Kansas. That still makes the transition to the city and the world very significant. It's the idea of feeling like you've got the world in your pocket up till 20 and then the world seems a whole lot bigger than your home town.
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  6. #1626
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post

    I think the JSA should be on the same Earth and come long before Superman. I also don't think it gets in the way of the awe of Superman showing up for the first time.
    Well, maybe if you take out Dr. Fate, the Spectre, Green Lantern and probably Starman (and you keep Jay Garrick at Mach 1 speeds).

    Otherwise, yeah.

  7. #1627
    So much HYPE dawg! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwangung View Post
    Well, maybe if you take out Dr. Fate, the Spectre, Green Lantern and probably Starman (and you keep Jay Garrick at Mach 1 speeds).

    Otherwise, yeah.
    I actually think all of the above characters work just fine coming before Superman. Jay's speed is up to the Flash guys I guess. I don't really think it takes away from the 'awe' of Superman showing up. It's a little to much to get into here, but for the most part it actually works fine.

    It all comes down to how you frame them and the clear transition to Superman's generation. Basically going from mystery men to full blown super heroes. Morrison and the crew even had a take on how to do it in the Superman: 2000 pitch

    During the "Lost Years" of Clark Kent after he left high school--if he still has any room left in there--we’d like to establish that he met and was given training by a member (or members) of the Justice Society, possibly Al Pratt, the Atom. Since Superman in our currently-operating timestream wasn't the first super-hero, we’d like to restore his prominence by reaffirming that he is most certainly the greatest. We see Doctor Fate, near the end of his group’s life, telling the JSA that their work is all but over. That the first age of heroes was but the prelude. That soon, the greatest hero of all will arrive from the stars and it will be the task of the entire JSA to find him and teach him about the world of the costumed crimefighters. This little addition to the past gives Superman a new grandeur, a fresh religious dimension, and ties him more directly into the development of superheroics in the DCU (although having said that, we want to keep Superman's adventures on the periphery of the Universe, in the sense that we don't really mention the JLA much or refer a great deal to other heroes. The JSA should be seen as some misty Olympian group of supermen from the past, guys who are now dead, gone or replaced by the greatest hero of all. At least in his own book, we want to reclaim that old feeling that Superman is the only super-hero). It also seems mythically right that Superman should, at some point before he dons the cape, meet his predecessors, his John the Baptists, who have awaited his coming and now have a few lessons for the fledgling hero.
    This is a pretty cool way to do it. It also leaves room for a JSA resurgence after Superman's arrival.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 07-16-2017 at 10:03 PM.
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  8. #1628
    Incredible Member Agniwolf's Avatar
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    controversial opinion: i want n52 back just because i liked the armor, the pairing and krypto. dont care if it is redundant or others dont see the difference

  9. #1629
    Mighty Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    There's a contradiction I see? Why would Superboy undermine the momentus arrival of Superman on an Earth with the JSA? Dr. Fate, the Spectre, Alan Scott? Those are Superman level events.
    Last edited by Johnny Thunders!; 07-17-2017 at 07:43 AM.

  10. #1630
    Mighty Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    The external reality is that Superman came first. Before Batman, before Dr Fate, before Al Pratt (who apparently some fans think should "train" Superman! LOL), before Uncle Tom Cobley et al.

    Is it really all that unreasonable to want (as many Superman fans do) his prime place in comics history to be reflected in his own fictional word? To make it obvious why other heroes would regard Superman as first among equals?

    I certainly want Superman to be treated as first among equals in DCU. I don't think he is now...he's not the most powerful, he's not the fastest (not even close), he's not the most versatile, he's not the most intelligent, he's not the most gifted leader, he doesn't have a unique set of morals. He's got the most weaknesses of all the top tier power-houses.

    He's not quite (yet) become a "A bit good man at most things yet". But he's drifting that way.
    Last edited by JackDaw; 07-17-2017 at 09:14 AM.

  11. #1631
    Psionic Superman stephens2177's Avatar
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    Of all the characters in the DCU why can't Superman just debut "in story x in 1938,and team with the JSA,and live and usher in the modern age of heroes? That's how you respect him as 1st,and keep everything that has been written "in".
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  12. #1632
    Invincible Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I just don't want him to be portrayed as actually that old in the main canon. Nothing with his supporting cast would work until modern day anyway as they would all be dead by now, so you lose a lot of details in the original tales anyway. I don't like the idea that he doesn't met Lois or Lex or those types of major players until he's in his 80s. Just feels wrong.

    The easiest, the most lore-friendly way to do this has always been to keep the JSA on a separate Earth. They could even bring back Kal-L there if they wanted. But even if not the JSA on their own Earth is superior in pretty much every way. Outside briefly trying it in the New 52 era though, DC mostly bends over backwards to NOT do this and make it as difficult as possible to factor in because they insist it all being on one Earth. Rebirth is setting up ClutterEarth again and why they're insisting upon that broken format I just cannot grasp. Say all one wants about Didio, but if we stick to the widely held belief that the New 52 was mostly his baby, then this was one thing he got right, and one major thing that the Rebirth crew is getting wrong all over again.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 07-17-2017 at 12:02 PM.
    They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son. - Jor-El.

  13. #1633
    Mighty Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephens2177 View Post
    Of all the characters in the DCU why can't Superman just debut "in story x in 1938,and team with the JSA,and live and usher in the modern age of heroes? That's how you respect him as 1st,and keep everything that has been written "in".
    I wondered about that. It's not impossible to do it that way, but you would need a clever solution to deal with age of prime supporting characters such as the Kents, Lois, Jimmy, Perry, etc.

    I think an easier (not necessarily better) solution might be to make him the only regular character that could travel across dimensions, so that he built up unique overall knowledge, so others would look to him for leadership when serious weirdness comes into play.

  14. #1634
    Invincible Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    The only character who could really work in that situation is Lex, by maybe saying in the old days it was Lex I, and in the current day he's dealing with Lex II. But you couldn't use that trope liberally with the rest ; it'd get ridiculous really fast. Not to mention it can't even be done with Lois. No one would accept two Lois's anymore than they'd accept to Supermen.
    They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son. - Jor-El.

  15. #1635
    Mighty Member FishyZombie's Avatar
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    I don't see why Superman needs to be the first. I'm not even that into the JSA, but I don't think they shouldn't exist just for the meager novelty that Supes came first. He's often acknowedged as the "best," and that is plenty for me.
    I think it's got to be a meta thing. Because meta stuff in comic stories have never done anything for me. People always think meta=clever, when I think it's just scraping the bottom of the barrel. Superman was the first dc hero therefore he must be the first in universe hero. Deadpool has never made me laugh once, and I don't hate deadpool, I just don't see what's funny about him acknowledging that he's a fictional character. People think Grant Morrison showing up in Animal Man was genius, I think that's kinda lame tbh.
    And you end up either not being able to have heroes with more experience than Supes, or you have to bend over backwards to make him kinda sorta not really first. Like he was the first to publically debut, but Batman, WW and 3 dozen others were active before he was. Just doesn't seem worth it from a practical perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by stephens2177 View Post
    Of all the characters in the DCU why can't Superman just debut "in story x in 1938,and team with the JSA,and live and usher in the modern age of heroes? That's how you respect him as 1st,and keep everything that has been written "in".
    most of his supporting cast would be dead of old age.
    Last edited by FishyZombie; 07-17-2017 at 12:15 PM.

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