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  1. #1
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    Default Question about Talia/Bruce Wayne continuity!

    Hello everyone,

    I am new to the site and will keep my welcome for another post.

    But I am also new to this epic that is Batman, arguably the largest epic of all time, and am an avid reader of fiction etc.

    I am confused about a few points about the relationship of Talia and Bruce and if anyone could refer me to the issues that give these explanations, that would be very helpful.

    1) In the "Son of the Demon" by Mike Barr, I am seeing a very real concern for Talia when she becomes pregnant. I also see a willing Bruce (who admittedly succumbs to his desires) to consummate with Talia. I see wine at the table in the preceding scene, but I didn't see Batman getting drugged, as it is referred to in Grant Morrison's "Son of Batman." Am I missing something? If he was drugged that night, he surely wasn't still drugged when he had a genuine concern for the health of Talia later in this story line, putting her needs above other people needing medical attention.

    2) Also, the last page of the "Son of the Demon" implies that the baby of Bruce and Talia was given away, how does that fit in with Grant Morrison's explanation of Damian? Does he just ignore it? It makes sense to me if the sex he is talking about is occurs somewhere toward the end of "Birth of a Demon" but even then, I don't see the "eugenics experiment" Bruce refers to in Son of Batman. If anyone could point me in the right direction to read the issues where this happens I would appreciate it.

    3) Also, who is Talia's mother? In the Son of the Demon she was around in World War one and in the Birth of the Demon she was a hippy from Woodstock?

    I admit I am new and do not know the etiquette of message boards, but I hope someone can help me with these answers. I will be posting more, as I need an outlet for all of these questions. Thank you so much for your time.
    Last edited by SasAnRhul; 01-08-2017 at 10:27 AM.

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    There's a general consensus that Son of the Demon is sort of rendered non-canon by Morrison's run. At the very least, much of the details have been totally gutted and superseded by Morrison's stuff. Morrison did indeed have Bruce essentially date-raped, but later on in Robin Rises, Peter Tomasi would change it back to a consensual love affair. Morrison's Batman Incorporated #2 (New 52) goes into Talia's backstory and shows her mother as well (it's the Woodstock version.) And yeah, Damian was apparently incubated outside of Talia's womb (she never actually gave birth to him) and in post-Flashpoint continuity Damian must be artificially aged as well. I'm a little fuzzy on some details because I haven't read this stuff in awhile though.

  3. #3
    Astonishing Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SasAnRhul View Post
    Hello everyone,

    I am new to the site and will keep my welcome for another post.

    But I am also new to this epic that is Batman, arguably the largest epic of all time, and am an avid reader of fiction etc.

    I am confused about a few points about the relationship of Talia and Bruce and if anyone could refer me to the issues that give these explanations, that would be very helpful.

    1) In the "Son of the Demon" by Mike Barr, I am seeing a very real concern for Talia when she becomes pregnant. I also see a willing Bruce (who admittedly succumbs to his desires) to consummate with Talia. I see wine at the table in the preceding scene, but I didn't see Batman getting drugged, as it is referred to in Grant Morrison's "Son of Batman." Am I missing something? If he was drugged that night, he surely wasn't still drugged when he had a genuine concern for the health of Talia later in this story line, putting her needs above other people needing medical attention.

    2) Also, the last page of the "Son of the Demon" implies that the baby of Bruce and Talia was given away, how does that fit in with Grant Morrison's explanation of Damian? Does he just ignore it? It makes sense to me if the sex he is talking about is occurs somewhere toward the end of "Birth of a Demon" but even then, I don't see the "eugenics experiment" Bruce refers to in Son of Batman. If anyone could point me in the right direction to read the issues where this happens I would appreciate it.

    3) Also, who is Talia's mother? In the Son of the Demon she was around in World War one and in the Birth of the Demon she was a hippy from Woodstock?

    I admit I am new and do not know the etiquette of message boards, but I hope someone can help me with these answers. I will be posting more, as I need an outlet for all of these questions. Thank you so much for your time.
    Hi and welcome.
    You are correct in the original Son of Demon story by Barr Bruce and Talia were in love, the sex was consensual No drugs involved and the baby was given up for adoption.

    However in the retelling of the story written by Grant Morrison the story was changed to Talia drugging Bruce and keeping her pregnancy and the baby secret.

    The story was yet again changed in 2014 by then Batman and Robin writer Peter Tomasi in the story Robin Rises Omega.
    In Tomasi retelling Bruce indicates that the sex was consensual by stating that he fell in love and followed his heart.

    Basically comics are known for always changing and updating things the Barr and Morrison versions are no longer relevant. Tomasi's Robin Rises version is canon and the version DC is currently running with.

    Talia and Bruce fell in love despite being on opposite sides and one starry night in the desert they gave into those feelings, boned [no drugs involved] Talia got knocked up hid it from Bruce they went back to being flirtatious enemies.

    Comics that cover your queries

    Tomasi's Batman and Robin, Morrision's Batman Inc, Tomasi's Robin Rises Omega and Robin Rises Alpha those volume will catch you up and clarify everything you need to know.
    Last edited by dietrich; 01-08-2017 at 12:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleGlovez View Post
    There's a general consensus that Son of the Demon is sort of rendered non-canon by Morrison's run. At the very least, much of the details have been totally gutted and superseded by Morrison's stuff. Morrison did indeed have Bruce essentially date-raped, but later on in Robin Rises, Peter Tomasi would change it back to a consensual love affair. Morrison's Batman Incorporated #2 (New 52) goes into Talia's backstory and shows her mother as well (it's the Woodstock version.) And yeah, Damian was apparently incubated outside of Talia's womb (she never actually gave birth to him) and in post-Flashpoint continuity Damian must be artificially aged as well. I'm a little fuzzy on some details because I haven't read this stuff in awhile though.
    I'm quite sure Damian was at least always meant to be grown in a tank. There's a lot of evidence to back it, his name being Damian and reference to The Omen being the first obvious case, but also the use of a lot of scenarios in Morrison's Batman run where we see that kind of stuff - people grown in tanks - as a repeated theme. The fatherless Heretic was assuredly grown in tanks, and Morrison's run itself showed that, as well as Ra's al Ghul having the stockpile of other heretics (who Tomasi used). Then there was the fact that Darkseid was growing clone Bruces in tanks, too - and Talia was definitely "possessed" and channeling the spirit of Darkseidian tendencies when she was doing the whole Leviathan bit. So we went from basically confirming that Damian was conceived naturally but "birthed" in a science tank (also the fact that he was damaged fatally and there were replacement body parts to "fix him") to confirming that he was also artificially aged in other tanks. So it's always intrinsic to his origins, through the whole run, and is indifferent to the actual flashpointing stuff or even the shortening/abridging of the timeline.

    That stuff isn't too far off from the "Al Ghul Family" canon anyway. In some of their earliest appearances, Ra's and Talia had the "living brain" of some scientist in a tank and were using it for ill gains, and that was a proper Denny O'Neil storyline if I'm not mistaken. Weird evil scientist stuff isn't too far off for them. They do it all. Weird science and weird magic.
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  5. #5
    Astonishing Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K. Jones View Post
    I'm quite sure Damian was at least always meant to be grown in a tank. There's a lot of evidence to back it, his name being Damian and reference to The Omen being the first obvious case, but also the use of a lot of scenarios in Morrison's Batman run where we see that kind of stuff - people grown in tanks - as a repeated theme. The fatherless Heretic was assuredly grown in tanks, and Morrison's run itself showed that, as well as Ra's al Ghul having the stockpile of other heretics (who Tomasi used). Then there was the fact that Darkseid was growing clone Bruces in tanks, too - and Talia was definitely "possessed" and channeling the spirit of Darkseidian tendencies when she was doing the whole Leviathan bit. So we went from basically confirming that Damian was conceived naturally but "birthed" in a science tank (also the fact that he was damaged fatally and there were replacement body parts to "fix him") to confirming that he was also artificially aged in other tanks. So it's always intrinsic to his origins, through the whole run, and is indifferent to the actual flashpointing stuff or even the shortening/abridging of the timeline.

    That stuff isn't too far off from the "Al Ghul Family" canon anyway. In some of their earliest appearances, Ra's and Talia had the "living brain" of some scientist in a tank and were using it for ill gains, and that was a proper Denny O'Neil storyline if I'm not mistaken. Weird evil scientist stuff isn't too far off for them. They do it all. Weird science and weird magic.
    Damian was removed for Talia's womb and grown in an artificial womb because Talia wanted to create the perfect [enhanced] human to rule the world.
    He was created to be the next Alexander the Great, to conquer the world hence the name Damian which is Greek for 'To Tame'.
    Weren't the clones made as a sort of farm/bank to harvest from should Damian need parts/organs replacement? Like if he lost a lung you would take a lung from one his clones to replace it for example.

    I always saw it as that Talia had him in that artificial womb so she could tinker with him. Experimenting to create perfection.

    You are correct on the Darksied bit cos artificial womb Damian was grown in was powered by Apokolitain tech.
    Last edited by dietrich; 01-08-2017 at 12:13 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleGlovez View Post
    There's a general consensus that Son of the Demon is sort of rendered non-canon by Morrison's run. At the very least, much of the details have been totally gutted and superseded by Morrison's stuff. Morrison did indeed have Bruce essentially date-raped, but later on in Robin Rises, Peter Tomasi would change it back to a consensual love affair. Morrison's Batman Incorporated #2 (New 52) goes into Talia's backstory and shows her mother as well (it's the Woodstock version.) And yeah, Damian was apparently incubated outside of Talia's womb (she never actually gave birth to him) and in post-Flashpoint continuity Damian must be artificially aged as well. I'm a little fuzzy on some details because I haven't read this stuff in awhile though.
    Son Of The Demon was rendered non-canon not long after it was published, presumably because DC didn't think Batman having a son was a good idea.

    Grant Morrison brought elements of the story back (as well as elements of golden and silver age strories that hadn't been canon for decades) and gave them his own spin.
    So this Zealot comes to my door, all glazed eyes and clean reproductive organs, asking me if I ever think about God. So I tell him I killed God. I tracked God down like a rabid dog, hacked off his legs with a hedge trimmer, and boiled off his corpse in an acid bath. So he pulls an alternating-current taser on me and tells me that only the Official Serbian Church of Tesla can save my polyphase intrinsic electric field, known to non-engineers as "the soul". So I hit him. What would you do?

  7. #7
    Astonishing Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SasAnRhul View Post
    Hello everyone,

    I am new to the site and will keep my welcome for another post.

    But I am also new to this epic that is Batman, arguably the largest epic of all time, and am an avid reader of fiction etc.

    I am confused about a few points about the relationship of Talia and Bruce and if anyone could refer me to the issues that give these explanations, that would be very helpful.

    1) In the "Son of the Demon" by Mike Barr, I am seeing a very real concern for Talia when she becomes pregnant. I also see a willing Bruce (who admittedly succumbs to his desires) to consummate with Talia. I see wine at the table in the preceding scene, but I didn't see Batman getting drugged, as it is referred to in Grant Morrison's "Son of Batman." Am I missing something? If he was drugged that night, he surely wasn't still drugged when he had a genuine concern for the health of Talia later in this story line, putting her needs above other people needing medical attention.

    2) Also, the last page of the "Son of the Demon" implies that the baby of Bruce and Talia was given away, how does that fit in with Grant Morrison's explanation of Damian? Does he just ignore it? It makes sense to me if the sex he is talking about is occurs somewhere toward the end of "Birth of a Demon" but even then, I don't see the "eugenics experiment" Bruce refers to in Son of Batman. If anyone could point me in the right direction to read the issues where this happens I would appreciate it.

    3) Also, who is Talia's mother? In the Son of the Demon she was around in World War one and in the Birth of the Demon she was a hippy from Woodstock?

    I admit I am new and do not know the etiquette of message boards, but I hope someone can help me with these answers. I will be posting more, as I need an outlet for all of these questions. Thank you so much for your time.
    Tomasi's Batman and Robin, Batman Inc and Robin Rises covers every thing you need to know about the questions you posed. All other version do not matter since they are no longer part of DC canon so feel free to ignore them.

    The Eugenics experiment refers to the fact that Damian [as a fetus] was removed for Talia's womb placed into an artificial womb. Talia wanted to create the perfect [enhanced] human to rule the world so she placed him in that artificial womb so she could tinker with him. Experimenting to create perfection.

    Check out Tomasi's Batman and Robin, Morrision's Batman Inc, Tomasi's Robin Rises Omega and Robin Rises Alpha those volume will catch you up and clarify everything you need to know.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Damian was removed for Talia's womb and grown in an artificial womb because Talia wanted to create the perfect [enhanced] human to rule the world.
    He was created to be the next Alexander the Great, to conquer the world hence the name Damian which is Greek for 'To Tame'.
    Weren't the clones made as a sort of farm/bank to harvest from should Damian need parts/organs replacement? Like if he lost a lung you would take a lung from one his clones to replace it for example.

    I always saw it as that Talia had him in that artificial womb so she could tinker with him. Experimenting to create perfection.

    You are correct on the Darksied bit cos artificial womb Damian was grown in was powered by Apokolitain tech.
    That's right, the Apokolips tech. Explains it all for me. Even its presence in Talia's scheme would be a corrupting influence in the back of her mind, the same way Barbatos was in the back of Bruce's mind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Son Of The Demon was rendered non-canon not long after it was published, presumably because DC didn't think Batman having a son was a good idea.
    I'm not sure if it was ever canon.

    But there are are afaik two series of else world stories where Son Of The Demon is canon. The first is "Kingdom Come" where the Kid is called Ibn al Xu'ffasch and the second is "Brotherhood of the Bat" where he is called Tallant Wayne.

  10. #10
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    Morrison admitted later on that he wrote Batman & Son with a hazy memory of Son of the Demon, and he was mistaken in writing Talia to have drugged Bruce. Current canon (and the canon established in Batman Inc by Morrison later on) is that they were legitimately in love (or at least strong lust) at one point, Talia got pregnant, Damian was born via artificial womb outside of Bruce's knowledge, and Talia's hatred of Bruce developed over years of him refusing to stay with her and embracing their relationship, as well as some psychological damage done to her by her sister during Death and the Maidens.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diggy View Post
    Morrison admitted later on that he wrote Batman & Son with a hazy memory of Son of the Demon, and he was mistaken in writing Talia to have drugged Bruce. Current canon (and the canon established in Batman Inc by Morrison later on) is that they were legitimately in love (or at least strong lust) at one point, Talia got pregnant, Damian was born via artificial womb outside of Bruce's knowledge, and Talia's hatred of Bruce developed over years of him refusing to stay with her and embracing their relationship, as well as some psychological damage done to her by her sister during Death and the Maidens.
    I'm tired of all these guys getting raped by women. Who'd blame Bruce if he had a romantic evening and a hot exotic lady? He doesn't have to live like a monk. Sure, he didn't expect a pregnancy--but Talia didn't seem worried about it at the time either.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by oasis1313 View Post
    I'm tired of all these guys getting raped by women. Who'd blame Bruce if he had a romantic evening and a hot exotic lady? He doesn't have to live like a monk. Sure, he didn't expect a pregnancy--but Talia didn't seem worried about it at the time either.
    Yea I love Morrison but I always thought it was a questionable decision to imply drugged rape. Bruce and Talia have a strong, well documented intense romance, is it really so unthinkable that they had consensual sex?
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  13. #13
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SasAnRhul View Post

    1) In the "Son of the Demon" by Mike Barr, I am seeing a very real concern for Talia when she becomes pregnant. I also see a willing Bruce (who admittedly succumbs to his desires) to consummate with Talia. I see wine at the table in the preceding scene, but I didn't see Batman getting drugged, as it is referred to in Grant Morrison's "Son of Batman." Am I missing something? If he was drugged that night, he surely wasn't still drugged when he had a genuine concern for the health of Talia later in this story line, putting her needs above other people needing medical attention.
    As others said, Morrison did poor due diligence with Son of the Demon. But later things corrected/reframed some things.

    Quote Originally Posted by SasAnRhul View Post
    2) Also, the last page of the "Son of the Demon" implies that the baby of Bruce and Talia was given away, how does that fit in with Grant Morrison's explanation of Damian? Does he just ignore it? It makes sense to me if the sex he is talking about is occurs somewhere toward the end of "Birth of a Demon" but even then, I don't see the "eugenics experiment" Bruce refers to in Son of Batman. If anyone could point me in the right direction to read the issues where this happens I would appreciate it.
    Some have tried to claim the "baby giveaway" couldn't happen in Morrison's canon, but I've never seen how it is so impossible given that the baby could been quickly retrieved by an emotionally swinging Talia. The eugenics remark is not inconsistent with anything given Talia always seemed to suggest much of her interest in Bruce lied with his great/inherently something blood/genes. That's eugenics.

    Birth of the Demon happens far after Son of the Demon, if count both as continuity. Birth's "present" framing narrative takes place in the continuity years after Son of the Demon. I love Birth but don't think it has any scenes relevant to Damian or his birth.

    Quote Originally Posted by SasAnRhul View Post
    3) Also, who is Talia's mother? In the Son of the Demon she was around in World War one and in the Birth of the Demon she was a hippy from Woodstock?
    Definitely Denny O'Neil's idea of Talia's mother won out. And it perfect makes sense since Denny is owed deference (over Barr) as the creator of Talia and Ra's.


    I will always maintain that some try too hard to say Son of the Demon is out now still and overstretch to try to prove so. Talia's mother is like the only part I've found that is so definitely out. But that doesn't mean the whole story is out. Morrison clearly made a lot stories canon again while suggesting they might come back in with alterations of aspects.
    Last edited by JBatmanFan05; 08-08-2017 at 02:17 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diggy View Post
    Yea I love Morrison but I always thought it was a questionable decision to imply drugged rape. Bruce and Talia have a strong, well documented intense romance, is it really so unthinkable that they had consensual sex?
    Exactly. Bruce is a big boy and Talia is a big girl. Doesn't he sleep with any of these women "Playboy Bruce Wayne" brings home after dinner and the opera? We don't need anything graphic, but it's always been implied. If he's dropping them all off at their homes at 8Pm with a sisterly peck on the back of the hand, word about that gets around, too. Now he sounds like a rape hoaxer.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by oasis1313 View Post
    Exactly. Bruce is a big boy and Talia is a big girl. Doesn't he sleep with any of these women "Playboy Bruce Wayne" brings home after dinner and the opera? We don't need anything graphic, but it's always been implied.
    Well, Morrison is the first writer I know of that said yes, he does.
    Earlier writers, there was no implying. It was regularly flatout stated that he does not sleep with any of them.
    So this Zealot comes to my door, all glazed eyes and clean reproductive organs, asking me if I ever think about God. So I tell him I killed God. I tracked God down like a rabid dog, hacked off his legs with a hedge trimmer, and boiled off his corpse in an acid bath. So he pulls an alternating-current taser on me and tells me that only the Official Serbian Church of Tesla can save my polyphase intrinsic electric field, known to non-engineers as "the soul". So I hit him. What would you do?

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