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  1. #286
    Junior Member Drako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comicgirl78 View Post
    Seeley has a habit of not really listening to criticism and he does even worse with negative criticism and doesn't really acknowledge them and he will do what he wants! We will have to wait and see, but a great deal of people could care less what happens to Shawn as long as she isn't fridges after this arc, sad but true!

    And I think it is safe to say a lot of people tuned into this issue just for Wally babs starfire and Jason anyway! Seeley pretty much manipulated those characters into the story to get us to buy it! Great strategy!
    That's not true at all. If you follow his Twitter, you'll see he is pretty open to criticism.

    And if people just read this issue because of the cameos, who cares about what they think? They got what they want, pretty good the cameos, so they are happy. And they won't get back anyways. Also, Seeley already stated that this was the issue which he had the most postive reaction of the whole series.
    Last edited by Drako; 02-17-2017 at 09:51 AM.

  2. #287
    Junior Member Comicgirl78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    That's not true at all. If you follow his Twitter, you'll see he is pretty open to criticism.

    And if people just read this issue because of the cameos, who cares about what they think? They got what they want, pretty good the cameos, so they are happy. And they won't get back anyways. Also, Seeley already stated that this was the issue which he had the most postive reaction of the whole series.
    I've actually heard and witnessed the opposite about him. He was extremely dismissive of the negative criticism of Grayson! And while yes it was a good run, and he does own up to it, but that still doesn't take away From him being dismissive!

    And yes they do have a say in what they wanna see! How can you dismiss what people think because they only tuned into one aspect of the story, ever stop to think that maybe they only tuned into that part because the other part wasn't interesting to them? You don't think that's a problem in seeey's writing? I saw someone say it best, he only used the likes of those characters to push his ideas without actually utilizing them! While it may not be a problem with you, but it was to other people and they deserve to be heard too! Like I said great use of manipulation of popular characters to sell your book! You see it a lot in other rebirth titles and n52 it's all about sales :/

    I know seeley had a positive reaction, but the majority of people (from the reviews that I've read) who had a positive reaction have said it was because of those cameos!

    I'm not trying to be mean here but I think it's wrong to tell people that what they think doesn't matter because they didn't look at the issue with the same intentions you did :/ the opinions on seeley will Be subjective just like the opinions On this issue and people deserve to have their voices heard!

  3. #288
    Junior Member Drako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comicgirl78 View Post
    I've actually heard and witnessed the opposite about him. He was extremely dismissive of the negative criticism of Grayson! And while yes it was a good run, and he does own up to it, but that still doesn't take away From him being dismissive!

    And yes they do have a say in what they wanna see! How can you dismiss what people think because they only tuned into one aspect of the story, ever stop to think that maybe they only tuned into that part because the other part wasn't interesting to them? You don't think that's a problem in seeey's writing? I saw someone say it best, he only used the likes of those characters to push his ideas without actually utilizing them! While it may not be a problem with you, but it was to other people and they deserve to be heard too! Like I said great use of manipulation of popular characters to sell your book! You see it a lot in other rebirth titles and n52 it's all about sales :/

    I know seeley had a positive reaction, but the majority of people (from the reviews that I've read) who had a positive reaction have said it was because of those cameos!

    I'm not trying to be mean here but I think it's wrong to tell people that what they think doesn't matter because they didn't look at the issue with the same intentions you did :/ the opinions on seeley will Be subjective just like the opinions On this issue and people deserve to have their voices heard!
    So, people liked the cameos, but not because of Seeley writing? He was the one putting them in these situations, he was the one who wrote all their dialogue, and yet you're saiyng he get no credit just because you don't like the new girl Dick is dating. Makes no sense whatsoever.

  4. #289
    Junior Member Drako's Avatar
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    Also, let me just say that is not easy to make good cameos in a comic book. Not easy at all. Especially 4 in the same issue. You are bringing fans from others characters, and all of them have expectations and their own way of seeing theses characters. To apeal all ot them? If very dificult to do as a writer.

  5. #290
    Junior Member Comicgirl78's Avatar
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    I never said he shouldn't get credit? I said the people who left positive reviews only because of the cameos should have a voice! And the fact that they say little to nothing about shawn speaks volumes about how your fans view the character! As a writer it's your job to appeal to new and old fans! You should expect that, and as writer one of the biggest things that could alienate your fans is to push a character no one cares about and put them on a pedastool no one asked for! It isn't easy to make good characters, but if you do make a character that is getting little to no acknowledgement then it's safe to say you can bench that character in a way that doesn't fridge them or retcon them and not force the reader to like them because you do you know? This has been done before and can be done again! Like honestly Shawnxdick works because seeley made them work. Seeley never gave readers a chance to decide if they even liked Shawn or if she was good for dick, he just kinda forced our opinion of her (I hope that makes sense)

    In regards to me giving him credit, I give him credit for his amazing usage of cameos, he deserves that! I give him credit for the overall plot of Bludhaven! I will not give him credit on his shoehorned romance with shawnxdick! That's is why I left a mediocre review because it was an honest review!

  6. #291
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Shawn is like 5 issues old. You don't discard a new character because she might not be over only after 5 issues. Especially when the writers intentions for the character serves a particular story they have.

  7. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comicgirl78 View Post
    I've actually heard and witnessed the opposite about him. He was extremely dismissive of the negative criticism of Grayson! And while yes it was a good run, and he does own up to it, but that still doesn't take away From him being dismissive!
    He had people coming at him calling him a rapist. That is not criticism, that's character assassination.

    And the fact is, he's the writer. He's been chosen and is paid to write the story him and his editors agree on. The only metric that matters, in the long run, is sales numbers. Not some people with no manners crying on twitter and tumblr.

  8. #293

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    Honestly DickxShawn will probably remain at the same level as his other romances on the account of Batgir and Starfire being bigger characters and the way everyone just approved of her and he said he loved her in two months. Seeley is writing Dick more as a Young adult who has been a Superhero all his life and less as Dick Grayson who has been Robin, Agent 37, Bateman etc. People do fall in love in 2 months or less, Dick Grayson wouldn't due to the personallity he has shown over the course of his entire run in the eyes of Dick Grayson fans. This is the disconnect between people criticizing Seeley and his own opinion, Dick should actually be more cautious than he is being written based on his experience in this universe and since 1,940 with the people he trusts and the relationships he engages in. Like I stated earlier a young adult who is trying to establish himself as a Superhero would make these decision but Dick Grayson should be more wiser than an average YA.

  9. #294
    PALADIN OF VOLTRON JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comicgirl78 View Post
    I've actually heard and witnessed the opposite about him. He was extremely dismissive of the negative criticism of Grayson! And while yes it was a good run, and he does own up to it, but that still doesn't take away From him being dismissive!
    That part in Grayson that had people blowing up at Seeley was a non-issue that someone decided to make a mountain out of mole hill of and Seeley wasn't on twitter when the initial blow up happened. He even said that absolutely NOTHING happened in that scene. The whole thing boils down to HOW someone interpreted the scene in question not that there was actually any rape going on there. I chose to believe Seeley who is the ONLY one who knows what was going on in his head when he wrote it over someone on Twitter. The Twitter crowd tends toward extreme over-reactions to things in my experience which is why I am no longer on there or on a lot of other social media for that matter.

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  10. #295
    Junior Member Drako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comicgirl78 View Post
    I never said he shouldn't get credit? I said the people who left positive reviews only because of the cameos should have a voice! And the fact that they say little to nothing about shawn speaks volumes about how your fans view the character! As a writer it's your job to appeal to new and old fans! You should expect that, and as writer one of the biggest things that could alienate your fans is to push a character no one cares about and put them on a pedastool no one asked for! It isn't easy to make good characters, but if you do make a character that is getting little to no acknowledgement then it's safe to say you can bench that character in a way that doesn't fridge them or retcon them and not force the reader to like them because you do you know? This has been done before and can be done again! Like honestly Shawnxdick works because seeley made them work. Seeley never gave readers a chance to decide if they even liked Shawn or if she was good for dick, he just kinda forced our opinion of her (I hope that makes sense)

    In regards to me giving him credit, I give him credit for his amazing usage of cameos, he deserves that! I give him credit for the overall plot of Bludhaven! I will not give him credit on his shoehorned romance with shawnxdick! That's is why I left a mediocre review because it was an honest review!
    lol The readers don't have to decide who Dick Grayson is going to date.

    You can like or dislike whatever you want, and make the review you think it's fair, it's your life, your opinion. But you somehow turn your dislike for Shawn to Seeley with things like "use of manipulation of popular characters to sell your book" and to me this is nonsense. Sorry.

  11. #296
    Junior Member Comicgirl78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HellHere View Post
    He had people coming at him calling him a rapist. That is not criticism, that's character assassination.

    And the fact is, he's the writer. He's been chosen and is paid to write the story him and his editors agree on. The only metric that matters, in the long run, is sales numbers. Not some people with no manners crying on twitter and tumblr.
    Calling him a rapist is not what I'm talking about! A lot of people who gave him negatives for grayson came at him mature and had factual points! Don't put them in the same category as the crazies who called him a rapist! If all that matters is sales, then why read the comic if your reviews aren't being considered? Wasn't that one of the biggest issues with n52 because DC comics wasn't listening to anything other than money?

    Quote Originally Posted by DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy View Post
    Honestly DickxShawn will probably remain at the same level as his other romances on the account of Batgir and Starfire being bigger characters and the way everyone just approved of her and he said he loved her in two months. Seeley is writing Dick more as a Young adult who has been a Superhero all his life and less as Dick Grayson who has been Robin, Agent 37, Bateman etc. People do fall in love in 2 months or less, Dick Grayson wouldn't due to the personallity he has shown over the course of his entire run in the eyes of Dick Grayson fans. This is the disconnect between people criticizing Seeley and his own opinion, Dick should actually be more cautious than he is being written based on his experience in this universe and since 1,940 with the people he trusts and the relationships he engages in. Like I stated earlier a young adult who is trying to establish himself as a Superhero would make these decision but Dick Grayson should be more wiser than an average YA.
    You're right but people will do have opinions on the subject you know! Maybe some people do want her to last, but not just as dicks love interest? I agree dick should be wary trusting people and he also should be taking his time with developing emotional connections with people he should be wiser than how he is being written in rebirth! That was one of my main complaints
    Earlier on this thread because I thought this dick was too ooc in the decisions he was making and it made Shawn and him make no sense in my mind! But as you can see that can be up for debate! Seeey will write dick how he wants, but people can still criticize him for t! And I mean constructive criticism and not calling him a rapist because that's disgusting to call someone that!

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Shawn is like 5 issues old. You don't discard a new character because she might not be over only after 5 issues. Especially when the writers intentions for the character serves a particular story they have.


    I'm not discarding her but the fact that a lot of people are is a very telling sign that your fans probably and most likely do not enjoy this character the way you want them to! Readers disregard characters all the time in books early on! Rule of thumb, if your character doesn't catch enough momentum and interest and in your rising actions and at the peak, it's safe to just respectfully write them off at that point or bring them in another direction! I don't see seeley bringing her in another direction away from being dick's love interest which leads me to believe if he were to get rid of her he would hopefully respectfully write her off!

    Like I said a good way to alienate your fans is to put a character they don't care about (not because they are a crappy character but rather because as the writer you didn't give the readers anything to care about) is to push a storyline with them as the lead and force us to basically accept it you know? It'd be different if Shawn had prior developement to issue 15 but she barely did and I see that's what people are saying they don't like! It's alienating a part of your fan base :/

    you can choose to listen to them or not but atleast try to keep everyone somewhat interested! So I give seeey props for utilizing those cameos in a way that Kees readers interested, but I won't for Shawn i can't!

  12. #297
    Junior Member Comicgirl78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    lol The readers don't have to decide who Dick Grayson is going to date.

    You can like or dislike whatever you want, and make the review you think it's fair, it's your life, your opinion. But you somehow turn your dislike for Shawn to Seeley with things like "use of manipulation of popular characters to sell your book" and to me this is nonsense. Sorry.
    The readers don't decide your right, but the readers should also be able to have their own opinions on the character and decide whether or not they actually like the character vs the writer forcing that character on us making us like them for the sake of the story. Mary Sue characters anyone?

  13. #298
    Senior Member Rakiduam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightwingIvI View Post
    I'm petty, but the biggest thing holding me back from liking Shawn is her blue hair.

    Also, ugh to the fact that she will be a carrot on a stick dangled in front of Dick's nose for thd entirety of the next arc. I wanted globetrotting arc that showcased Dick's villains free of Blüdhaven and the Run-Offs and Shawn.
    It's not just blue, it's not cerulean, it's not lapis, it's actually turquoise.

    Yeah, I'm very biased against anything Blüdhaven, but now that's done. I'm not sure it would be limiting as I imagine it would be at the beginning, if he needs a home base Blüdhaven it's not any worse than Gotham.

    Wait and see I guess. ( even if I'm still not over Grayson's lost)

    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    That's not true at all. If you follow his Twitter, you'll see he is pretty open to criticism.

    And if people just read this issue because of the cameos, who cares about what they think? They got what they want, pretty good the cameos, so they are happy. And they won't get back anyways. Also, Seeley already stated that this was the issue which he had the most postive reaction of the whole series.
    Seeley is so very patient with criticism, the fact that dedicate so time to listen and answer complaints (that many times ring petty and repetitive) with respect shows that he cares. Just he doesn't change his plans for them doesn't mean he isn't paying attenetion.

  14. #299
    Junior Member Comicgirl78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonTodd428 View Post
    That part in Grayson that had people blowing up at Seeley was a non-issue that someone decided to make a mountain out of mole hill of and Seeley wasn't on twitter when the initial blow up happened. He even said that absolutely NOTHING happened in that scene. The whole thing boils down to HOW someone interpreted the scene in question not that there was actually any rape going on there. I chose to believe Seeley who is the ONLY one who knows what was going on in his head when he wrote it over someone on Twitter. The Twitter crowd tends toward extreme over-reactions to things in my experience which is why I am no longer on there or on a lot of other social media for that matter.
    The criticism over grayson extends beyond that one scene. Its also not the job of the reader to jump through hoops to read Seeley's mind on what he intended for the scene. Reader interpretation is a huge thing writers need to look out for, because depending on how you say or draw things, the reader can be completely offended and stop reading or blow up at you (hence some of gRayson backlash) or they could be 100% behind you. Its not up to the reader to read your mind, account for that as a writer. Write what you intend to write, dont hop around corners! I know twitter over reacts alot, but there were also voices on tumblr, reddit, on this website on game spot and in real life! People have their opinions over looked because of some other people screaming louder than them and that isnt right! So just because it wasnt a mountain to you, doesnt mean it was a mole hill to others!

  15. #300
    PALADIN OF VOLTRON JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comicgirl78 View Post
    The readers don't decide your right, but the readers should also be able to have their own opinions on the character and decide whether or not they actually like the character vs the writer forcing that character on us making us like them for the sake of the story. Mary Sue characters anyone?
    I don't think anyone here has said that readers shouldn't be able to have their own opinions on a character. That is something that only a reader can decide. The problem comes when readers start to feel entitled and that a writer absolutely HAS to do EXACTLY what that reader wants or else. Writers are not obligated to listen to readers at all if what a reader wants isn't something that fits into the particular story they are telling. So even if fans want Dick to be with Babs, Starfire or even Helena Seeley still might have something he wants to explore using Shawn because she is someone he has just met as opposed to the others in the list I just made. If that is the case then all the complaining in the world won't do squat but it's not because Seeley "isn't listening to fans".

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