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  1. #76
    Notorious M.O.S. Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Truthfully, I consider it not the same guy going only if I go by the fact that I can clearly and immediately tell the difference in which Superman I'm supposed to be reading. However, I feel as though the four main Supermen all absolutely connect with each other. To me this is what prevents Rebirth Superman from "only" feeling like one era. It's never been a case where I couldn't feel one of the other three in the adventures of one, even if the continuity was very different.

    When I think of "different" I think of say, Lana and Kristin Wells.

  2. #77
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Default A Superman for All Eras

    The purpose of this thread is to construct the framework of a history for Superman that has room for as many of his published adventures as possible, going back to the original Action Comics #1. That is, I want it to have places in it for Golden Age adventures, Silver Age adventures, Bronze Age adventures, post-Crisis adventures, and N52 adventures. I'm not terribly concerned about when things happened (e.g., I'm not looking for “In 1985, X happened” or even “35 years ago, X happened”) so much as what order they happened; and even there, I'm only concerned with the big picture. Again, I'm looking at setting up a framework, rather than trying to nail down every little detail. With that in mind:

    1. Kal-El is conceived on Krypton, son of Jor-El and Lara. His parents put him in an experimental spacecraft and send him to Earth in order to save him from the destruction of the planet. The spacecraft crashes near Smallville during a meteor shower, and the baby is recovered from the wreckage by Martha Kent. She and her husband, Jonathan, adopt him and name him Clark.

    2. In his teen years, Clark has a career as an “urban legend Superboy”. This is where various Silver Age Superboy stories fit, although they might require some adjustment to accommodate the “urban legend” part. At an extreme, this might be more Smallville-like than Adventures of Superboy, with no costume, codename, or flying. There are reasons one might want to go to that extreme in terms of the larger framework. Some accounts have Lex Luthor in Smallville around this time, initially as Clark's friend. At some point, things go horribly wrong and Lex is set on the past of becoming Superman's nemesis. That event should happen near or at the end of this period.

    3. When Clark graduates from high school, he goes on a “world tour”, a la Man of Steel and Birthright. I'd also couple this with the death of his human father, as a compromise between the post-Crisis notion that both of his parents have been alive until recently and N52 notion that both died before he left Smallville. I'd end this phase in his life with his first encounter with Lois and a decision to settle down in Metropolis.

    4. When Clark arrives in Metropolis, he goes to work for George Taylor at the Daily Star as per Morrison's Action Comics. At this stage in his life, he's a social crusader (again, as per Morrison's Action Comics). As Superman, he's still in the “faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound” stage of his powers' development. Unlike Morrison's Action Comics, this part of his life lasts for more than just a few weeks; it lasts at least a year or two, during which time he has various Golden Age adventures. Some time near the end of this phase in his life, he figures out how to fly; meanwhile, his other powers gradually get stronger.

    5. The next turning point in his life is when the Daily Star goes out of business and he moves over to the Daily Planet, under Perry White. It is around this point that he learns of his alien heritage. What follows is a blend of his Silver Age and post-Crisis stories, with the former tending to emphasize his “Strange Visitor from another planet” aspects (“Great Rao!”, etc.), While the former plays up his “adopted son of Earth” aspect. Rather than Clark being the disguise and Superman being the truth or vice versa, he tries to strike a balance between Kal-El and Clark Kent. The key post-Crisis events that are definitely included are the Death of Superman, the Reign of the Supermen, the marriage of Lois and Clark, and Jon Kent. Some New 52 stories are included here as well, particularly any N52 stories that depend on Lois and Clark not being an item (e.g., Superman and Wonder Woman), which get squeezed in prior to the Death of Superman.

    6. Morgan Edge buys the Daily Planet. Clark is upset about this, but sticks around for a while as a TV anchor at WGTV before finally getting fed up with it and going his own way as an independent blogger. The first part of this stage of his life incorporates versions of his Bronze Age adventures (modified to accommodate the fact that he's a family man), while the second part includes N52 Superman stories reliant on him having gone solo career-wise. It's possible that step 6 is actually nested within step 5; I remember a post-Crisis story arc where the Daily Planet was shut down, only to be restarted a bit later. The length of time that it was shut down could be extended to make room for WGTV and independent blogger days.

    Thoughts?

    1. Gray area: when and where was he born? Most versions have him as a baby on Krypton; but Byrne's version had his parents send a birthing matrix to Earth, and he was born when Martha opened the matrix and pulled him out. I'm rather find out the notion, both because it adds a sci-fi element to his origin and because of the symbolism of him being born on Earth.)

    2. What was Krypton like? Personally, I like the diverse nature of Johns' Krypton, as it carries the implication that the different visions of Krypton that we've seen over the decades are all valid, each representing a different culture on Krypton.

    3. A major reason for keeping this period in Clark's life is that it's also when he met and joined the Legion of Superheroes. Note that the “urban legend” stuff needn't apply when he's in the future with the Legion; and in the extreme version of the urban legend model where he can't even fly yet, he can use Legion-tech to compensate for missing our underdeveloped powers. Perhaps the Legion's Superboy wears something like the N52 Superman's armor?

    Rogue wears rouge.
    Angel knows all the angles.

  3. #78
    Kingdom Come Board Original Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Clark Kent started off as this rough n' tumble kid who comes to the big city to take on the bullies of the world. He's called Superman--the tireless champion of the underdog, an angry young man of 20 railing against the system. He's reckless, cocky and passionate about righting the wrongs of those neglected by the rich and powerful. Then, as his powers grow ever greater, he begins to mellow more because of the immense responsibility he feels towards the world.

    Now in his early 20s, he starts to learn more and more about his alien origins. Summoning up all his speed and power, he does the impossible and breaks the time barrier, travelling back in time to witness the destruction of Krypton. However, his actions had the unforeseen consequences of altering his own timeline, leaving it fragile and in flux. In this new history, his powers developed much earlier and he became Superboy in Smallville, Kansas, made frequent trips to the 30th Century to share adventures with the Legion of Super-Heroes, and was inextricably linked with his foe Lex Luthor, who saw his own past tied to his greatest enemy.

    Having unwittingly retroactively changed his own past, Superman had become the greatest super-hero in history, but was also subconsciously racked with neurosis at the immensity of what he'd done, which manifested itself in all the crazy 1950s era stories of bodily transformations, super-dickery and imaginary stories, culminating in him splitting into two, the forever youthful Superman of Earth-1, who kept himself apart from Lois, and the aging Superman of Earth-2, who got to settle down with Lois Lane. Each represented the dueling sides of his desire to serve humanity as its stalwart protector and to have his own life & family.

    While his elder counterpart enjoyed semi-retirement and married life, the youthful Superman, now eternally 29, began to explore the universe. His journeys throughout the cosmos brought him into contact with the alien collector Brainiac, whose possession of the bottled city of Kandor revealed to Superman that he was not alone in the universe and others had survived Krypton's destruction, most significantly his young cousin, Kara Zor-El.

    Having traveled from one end of the universe to the other and seen all manner of wonders, Superman began a quest of self-discovery, questioning the greater role in the cosmos. This led him to finally break down his emotional walls and begin to let Lois in. However, the arrival of the Crisis on Infinite Earths shattered all he had accomplished, resulting in the death of Supergirl, the subsequent erasure from history of the remaining survivors of Krypton, and the exile of both his years as Superboy and his elder counterpart from Earth-2 to parts unknown.

    Humbled and traumatized by these tragedies, Superman took refuge in his humanity, rejecting his Kryptonian heritage because it only brought him pain. However, suppressing his pain only made him lose sight of himself, culminating in his execution of the Phantom Zone criminals from the Time Trapper's Pocket Universe, where he'd watched helplessly as his own youth as Superboy died.

    These events helped Superman finally move on from his grief and allowed him to slowly embrace his Kryptonian side again, now balanced with a stronger connection to his humanity, which was made even greater by the resurrection of his foster parents, the Kents, who helped keep him grounded. This allowed Superman to restore his relationship with Lois Lane and, following his own death & rebirth, they were married once again, restoring what he'd lost following the Crisis. Together, they made each other better.

    But the temporal instabilities caused by the return of the Superman of Earth-2 and Superboy-Prime wreaked havoc on all reality and within Superman himself. The co-existence of three aspects of himself, each at different times of their lives pushed his psyche to its breaking point, and in the case of Superboy-Prime, past the point of no return. The elder Superman became harsh and judgmental, the immature Superboy became a psychotic & megalomaniac while the adult Superman found himself indecisive and emotionally fragile. The death of the elder Superman at the hands of Superboy-Prime managed to restore some equilibrium in the surviving Superman, who reclaimed his past as Superboy while simultaneously moving forward in the present with his wife Lois Lane, who began thinking about having kids.

    Meanwhile, Superman's newfound embracing of his now unified Kryptonian heritage was put to the test during the events of New Krypton, which again ended in profound tragedy. Having watched the survivors of his homeworld wiped out for the third time, Superman had once again been humbled, which mysterious cosmic forces took advantage of and split him into two in hopes of weakening the very fabric of existence.

    As before, Superman & Lois now co-existed as the two dueling sides of themselves: the lone alien protector of Earth, the fearless working woman vs. the devoted husband & wife and loving parents to their young son. However, these two aspects could not be kept apart indefinitely and, with the help of his son, Superman & Lois managed to reconcile their contradictions to start a new life together.

  4. #79
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Clark Kent started off as this rough n' tumble kid who comes to the big city to take on the bullies of the world. He's called Superman--the tireless champion of the underdog, an angry young man of 20 railing against the system. He's reckless, cocky and passionate about righting the wrongs of those neglected by the rich and powerful. Then, as his powers grow ever greater, he begins to mellow more because of the immense responsibility he feels towards the world.

    Now in his early 20s, he starts to learn more and more about his alien origins. Summoning up all his speed and power, he does the impossible and breaks the time barrier, travelling back in time to witness the destruction of Krypton. However, his actions had the unforeseen consequences of altering his own timeline, leaving it fragile and in flux. In this new history, his powers developed much earlier and he became Superboy in Smallville, Kansas, made frequent trips to the 30th Century to share adventures with the Legion of Super-Heroes, and was inextricably linked with his foe Lex Luthor, who saw his own past tied to his greatest enemy.

    Having unwittingly retroactively changed his own past, Superman had become the greatest super-hero in history, but was also subconsciously racked with neurosis at the immensity of what he'd done, which manifested itself in all the crazy 1950s era stories of bodily transformations, super-dickery and imaginary stories, culminating in him splitting into two, the forever youthful Superman of Earth-1, who kept himself apart from Lois, and the aging Superman of Earth-2, who got to settle down with Lois Lane. Each represented the dueling sides of his desire to serve humanity as its stalwart protector and to have his own life & family.

    While his elder counterpart enjoyed semi-retirement and married life, the youthful Superman, now eternally 29, began to explore the universe. His journeys throughout the cosmos brought him into contact with the alien collector Brainiac, whose possession of the bottled city of Kandor revealed to Superman that he was not alone in the universe and others had survived Krypton's destruction, most significantly his young cousin, Kara Zor-El.

    Having traveled from one end of the universe to the other and seen all manner of wonders, Superman began a quest of self-discovery, questioning the greater role in the cosmos. This led him to finally break down his emotional walls and begin to let Lois in. However, the arrival of the Crisis on Infinite Earths shattered all he had accomplished, resulting in the death of Supergirl, the subsequent erasure from history of the remaining survivors of Krypton, and the exile of both his years as Superboy and his elder counterpart from Earth-2 to parts unknown.

    Humbled and traumatized by these tragedies, Superman took refuge in his humanity, rejecting his Kryptonian heritage because it only brought him pain. However, suppressing his pain only made him lose sight of himself, culminating in his execution of the Phantom Zone criminals from the Time Trapper's Pocket Universe, where he'd watched helplessly as his own youth as Superboy died.

    These events helped Superman finally move on from his grief and allowed him to slowly embrace his Kryptonian side again, now balanced with a stronger connection to his humanity, which was made even greater by the resurrection of his foster parents, the Kents, who helped keep him grounded. This allowed Superman to restore his relationship with Lois Lane and, following his own death & rebirth, they were married once again, restoring what he'd lost following the Crisis. Together, they made each other better.

    But the temporal instabilities caused by the return of the Superman of Earth-2 and Superboy-Prime wreaked havoc on all reality and within Superman himself. The co-existence of three aspects of himself, each at different times of their lives pushed his psyche to its breaking point, and in the case of Superboy-Prime, past the point of no return. The elder Superman became harsh and judgmental, the immature Superboy became a psychotic & megalomaniac while the adult Superman found himself indecisive and emotionally fragile. The death of the elder Superman at the hands of Superboy-Prime managed to restore some equilibrium in the surviving Superman, who reclaimed his past as Superboy while simultaneously moving forward in the present with his wife Lois Lane, who began thinking about having kids.

    Meanwhile, Superman's newfound embracing of his now unified Kryptonian heritage was put to the test during the events of New Krypton, which again ended in profound tragedy. Having watched the survivors of his homeworld wiped out for the third time, Superman had once again been humbled, which mysterious cosmic forces took advantage of and split him into two in hopes of weakening the very fabric of existence.

    As before, Superman & Lois now co-existed as the two dueling sides of themselves: the lone alien protector of Earth, the fearless working woman vs. the devoted husband & wife and loving parents to their young son. However, these two aspects could not be kept apart indefinitely and, with the help of his son, Superman & Lois managed to reconcile their contradictions to start a new life together.
    I like this one a lot. Very well reasoned and thought out.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
    SUPERMAN is the greatest fictional character ever created.

  5. #80
    Kingdom Come Board Original Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manofsteel1979 View Post
    I like this one a lot. Very well reasoned and thought out.
    Thankyew. Now, I just need Grant Morrison to write it for me

  6. #81
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Thankyew. Now, I just need Grant Morrison to write it for me
    I'll be sure to put him right on that right after he turns my pitch for the return of Proty into gold!
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
    SUPERMAN is the greatest fictional character ever created.

  7. #82
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    I'm trying to catch up with stuff I sat out through for a few months, but I feel like the answer to this question is that everything counts, except for the stuff that doesn't count, capisce?

  8. #83
    Incredible Member victorsage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    I don't think there is. Superman is not Batman. There isn't room for everything. It's too complex. A lot of stuff contradicts other stuff. Some people are going to be disappointed no matter what.
    This is the correct answer. Whether people want to admit it or not, the different "Ages" of Superman don't easily mesh, mostly because of the Silver Age.

  9. #84
    Kingdom Come Board Original Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by victorsage View Post
    This is the correct answer. Whether people want to admit it or not, the different "Ages" of Superman don't easily mesh, mostly because of the Silver Age.
    The various elements of Batman don't easily mesh either, but Morrison made it work. So why can't the same be done with Superman, whose exploits already involve time travel, magic and reality-altering imps from the 5th dimension?

  10. #85
    Incredible Member victorsage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    The various elements of Batman don't easily mesh either, but Morrison made it work. So why can't the same be done with Superman, whose exploits already involve time travel, magic and reality-altering imps from the 5th dimension?
    Early Superman stories are based on Clark Kent killing off entire enemies when they threaten him or the ones he loves. Clark kills off every member of the Ultra Humanite's gang, and Ultra himself only survives because he transplants his brain into a woman, who he kidnapped, and starts living her life. She also looks exactly like Lois Lane, but no need to get into that here and now, but it shows the difference between the stories as they started from what they would later become. The first supervillain of the original stories, was an elderly male scientist who transplanted his brain into the body of a woman who looks exactly like the woman Clark wants to marry and have children with, and who happens to be a famous actress name Dolores. This actress is someone who Ultra kidnapped and experimented on, before completely taking over her life, and started to live as a woman, despite being born a man, including flirting with men, even Superman himself. Did I mention this is the late 1930s? By the 1960s though Lois and Clark would barley kiss, and DC was to scared to show Lois eating breakfast with Clark because it may hint that they had sex the nite before, so instead Clark would eat breakfast with Jimmy because.... ummm... Anyways lets make some quick comparisons just of the characters themselves, without even dealing with the themes.

    Early Clark Kent famously killed baddies, usually by throwing them off cliffs or bridges, saying that such evil "deserves" to die, the Silver Age versions of the character would openly cry about the idea of ever truly hurting someone.

    Silver Age Superman cared so much about Krypton that he would use his ability to travel through time in order to visit it from time to time. Post Crisis Superman's life didn't really revolve around Krypton, and Golden Age Superman didn't really care, not finding out about his alien origin until he was well into his 30s and even then he mostly saw himself as EARTH's mightiest hero never longing for Krypton's "glory days".

    Krypton itself is presented differently during the ages. At first it's a mostly failed society, that has super human beings, who don't believe that they could possibly be responsible for harming the planet or for the planet being ready to explode even moments before it was destroyed. It's a broken society to confident about it's importance, and that arrogance is what destroys it. Silver Age Krypton on the other hand is basically a utopia, that isn't destroyed by the Kryptonian's arrogance, but instead by a terrorist called Black Zero who destroys the planet as a job putting wealth and personal greed above the lives of the peaceful and utopian Kryptonian's who only ever wanted to make the universe a better place. In the Bronze Age there was a mixture of the two, that canceled each other out and is more confusing. Post Crisis Krypton is closer to the Golden Age model, but turned up to 11. It's a failed society once more, this time though they don't even understand what we would call "human" emotions as well as we do, besides Jor-El and Lara who are throw backs.

    Luthor in the Golden Age is a power mad arms dealer, who dreams of being the dictator of the world. He doesn't care about science, and only uses it as a weapon. His entire character is based on the desire for power, as he emulates many of the dictators who were alive when he was created (Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini), he hates Superman simply because Clark stops him from reaching his goal. Silver Age Lex Luthor is a man who lives for science, and his own ego. He commits crimes in order to prove his superiority and the superiority of his own mind and scientific discoveries. He hate Superman because when Superman was young, and was going by the name Superboy, an accident happened that turned Lex bald, and this baldness is ultimately the reason the greatest scientific mind of the age has decided to become a criminal, because I guess curing baldness is more difficult then creating a space station that can be used to turn a comets gama rays into deadly green kryptonite rays, simply by transforming the scientific mumble jumble of the parsa parallel molecules, meta science phrasing! Post Crisis Lex is an industrialist, who see's Superman as the ultimate challenger for his greatness. He is driven by the desire to make a "God" bend the knee to him, he sees Superman as a challenge to overcome, as a new land to conquer. This version of Lex is basically Alexander the Great, who cried because there was no more lands to conquer before Superman arrived to challenge him. Modern Lex wants to play Iron Man.

    Golden Age Superboy... doesn't exist. In fact Golden Age Clark Kent didn't want to become a superhero until he got older. Post Crisis Superboy also... doesn't exist, and Clark doesn't want to become a superhero until he is older, and his powers are fully developed. Silver Age Superboy though? Oh he can drag around multiple planets as if they were a little red wagon, and can blow out a star as if it was a candle. Also every person who will one day be important to Clark once he reaches the ages between 25-35 magically show up when he's a kid, and they meet for the first time. In fact if Clark never meet you between the age of 10-17, you likely will never meet him. Ever. You will never be a part of the story. And the baddies? Well... Clark... may have been the cause of what created most of them... you know just a little. Unlike different ages most baddies hate Clark because... well... he's the reason they can't have a normal life or live up to their true potential. Or they are jealous of him. Oh! But don't forget he totally made out with a mermaid so that's something, Bruce can't claim to have over him. Bronze Age Superboy likely did the things Silver Age Superboy did, unless it was crazy powerful then he didn't do it, but dreamt about it. Or something. Also still totally made out with the mermaid. Take that Batman!

    Lois Lane in the Golden Age is "take no nonsense" strong willed "dame" who won't let the boys push her around, she has a sweet and sexy side, but you have to work hard to see it. She isn't going to show it to just anyone, she ain't no whore! She can not only make it in a mans world, she can do it better than any man. She first sees Clark Kent as a dork who won't stand up for himself, she sees him as a sissy. Later the two have more sexual sparks flying then an episode of a modern soap opera, and the two constantly try to one up each other in everything. Who out scoops whom, who's really on top of the journalistic world and who's more of a bottom..... and who can take it when things get really hard? Even their dialogue at times sounds like a 1940s/50s hard boiled conversation between a femme fatale and hard boiled PI with a big secret. Clark was the big man ya see, but Lois was his Girl Friday and don't you forget it mister! If you forget that you'll liable to have to answer to both of em, and who knows which one would be worse? Although both would deny even liking the other, even if they asked each other out on a date. It's not real you see, it's just dinner, and maybe some beef bourguignon on the side. Just on the side, you understand? And although the entire newsroom thinks they are in love, and likely doing it in the supply closet, why else is Kent always found their loosening his tie, or pulling up his pants? George Taylor doesn't care so long as they both get the stories! Neither does Perry White! Who the hell is George Taylor anyways?!?!

    Silver Age Lois LOVES Superman, because he's big, blue, strong, and has a great smile. What more could a girl ask for?!?! If Superman would even look in her direction Lois would just die! She'd just die I tell you! No really it's a trap by Lex Luthor, who's turned her into glass and... wait what? What is a What If story? It never happened?!? Wait what?!? Anyways where was I, oh right. Clark's boring, what a nerd. Who cares if he's built like a linebacker for the Baltimore Colts, the guy falls down all the time! But wait a minute are Clark and Superman the same person? Lois will think so multiple times, and like an annoying little sister will keep breaking into Superman's room to see his newest toys! Even though she's just a stupid girl! She should know her place! Superman may kiss Lois sometimes, but he doesn't mean it completely, girls are gross and anyways Kal-El would rather fly away, plus he has to translate this ancient Kryptonian scroll at the Fortress of Solitude, and feed Krypto! Oh boy Krypto is a great dog! Golly! He and Superman can play fetch with a meteor in space! What can the yucky Lois Lane do? Kissing is ok, but come one it's really icky if it happens often. Plus Lois and Clark would NEVER want to... you know.... play like Mommy and Daddy... it's gross! Plus Superman can't stop eating hamburgers or he dies, plus Lois Lane just got super fat all of a sudden for some reason! She maybe Superman's Girlfriend, but you can bet they will never explore to many mysteries of the universe, like what exactly does it mean to get to second base? Heavens above who knows!? Not Lois and Clark. When Lois gets angry at Superman she will threaten to marry someone else, which she will do with a total of 93 guys, including Batman a few times, who seems to have no problem with sleeping in the same bed with multiple different people, no matter the gender. Golly... I wonder what that means? But in the end Lois will call off the weddings at the last minute, she can't give up on Superman that easily can she? Her collection of wedding gowns is growing at a considerable rate though.

  11. #86
    Incredible Member victorsage's Avatar
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    Early Bronze Age Lois Lane is sick of your shit! What you think just because she has a pair of tits that you get to look at them? WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE!?!? You must be the man! That's right I said it! You are some kind of square! You're just a transnormative asshat Superman, and guess what you waited to long! That's right you blue long underwear wearing loser! Lois ain't waiting anymore! Guess why? Women want to get laid, and you are to old fashion to put out! That's right buddy! Doesn't matter how big the bulge is on those red undies is, Lois is done with you playing games, she ain't gotta take this shit! Even if you are an alien who looks like her coworker! She's clearly a ten, and could have multiple men if she wants! That's right middle America you bunch of hicks on your tractors watching Andy Griffith, we ain't in Mayberry anymore! Lois doesn't need your approval! She'll find a man who isn't afraid to be with a woman who burns her bra, and covers herself in black face to find out what it's like to be a black woman. Oh, and don't start with that "Superman's Girlfriend" bs with me! I'll do what I want! You probably voted for Nixon anyways. Pathetic. Lois is off to burn her bra and panties, and by GOD if you dare look at her when she picks up the pencil she dropped on the floor she's going to gouge your eyes out with her fingernails if she has to cover them in the dust of Kryptonite. You PIG! All man are perverts! They just want to use women for sex! What made them think women even wanted it?!?! Women aren't pigs, we will conqure the world! You piggish male hemispherical jackass! DOWN WITH THE SYSTEM! DEATH TO AMERICA! NO WAR! NO JUSTICE! PEACE RINGS FOR JESUS! And.... NO BEEF ANYTHING! I MAY JOIN A COMMUNE! .... the kids care about that right this is hip and what young women are like right........ I mean.... BURN YOUR BRAS!!! YEAH!!!!!

    Mid to Late Bronze Age Lois Lane is sorry about her early Bronze Age self, she doesn't know what got into her, but it wasn't Superman so we need to forget about how she acted before. She's closer to her Golden Age self again, and hey um... Clark I know you aren't Superman or anything, but want to go on a date? Man that grey suit can barely hold in those big muscles of yours. I've got a deep dish of beef bourguignon getting heated up in my apartment, and it's going to take a big man with lots of talent to eat it all up. Oh btw I'm going to be on the 6 o'clock news now.

    You get the point. Basically the characters down the "ages" are completely different from themselves, to an extraordinary level. Golden Age Superman would think Silver Age Superman is an overpowered man child to scared to do what's needed to be done in order to permanently put an end to the underworld, and who doesn't care enough about actual human beings, instead all he cares about is a dead world that's never coming back no matter how many times he cries about it in his little ice Fort. Silver Age Superman would likely try to put Golden Age Superman in the phantom zone because he has a habit of letting bad guys fall to their death, or he outright kills them, watches them die and tells them that they deserve their fate. I could say more, but all you really have to do is understand why there was an Earth 1 and Earth 2 in the first place, or hell why the Bronze Age happened at all in the first place.


    Silver Age Superman became something completely different from the original character, and people wanted to get the "real" Superman back. Even the "Earth 1" version had elements of the Golden Age brought back. The stories stopped being directed towards young boys age 5-11 and instead were written to appeal to a larger "All Ages" audience, and even a few 15+ stories.

    If you try to make it "All one story" you have multiple character who are going to suffer from extreme personality disorders and a few suffering from outright multiple personalities. The timeline don't add up, the themes often clash, the characters don't mesh, hell certain versions of the same character would outright hate each other. All of that is even before you start to look at the Daily Newspaper Strips which is different still!

    To be a Superman fan, you just have to accept that there are multiple different versions of the character, some so different that they don't even have the same moral codes. In this fandom you are going to meet fellow fans who like a version of the Superman character that you can not stand, and vice versa. There will be arguments, and feelings will sometimes get hurt. There is a reason people got blocked, and kicked off the forum a lot when they participated in threads here in the past. It's just a part of the fandom. There are multiple "divides" in this fandom that are real. People can't even agree on a "true" Superman, and it's not completely the fandom's fault.

    The fact is their are multiple different versions of this character. Jerry Seigel's original Superman killed people, flirted with Lois Lane, and had he had his way they would have grown closer and become a couple back in 1940.

    Jerry built a very "adult" version of the character, someone who had real hopes and dreams, who had human wants needs and desires, who despite being "Super" was also a "man", and the "man" party was just as important.

    It's important to remember though, that once management stripped Jerry of creative control, and forced the more "kids friendly" version of the character, that he is also the guy who came up with the idea of "Superboy", a completely different version of his character. A being who existed to be nothing more then a child's wish fulfillment, that's stuck in a continuing adolescents.

    Both versions, two completely different visions, came from the same mind. The writers and artist who followed, also created different versions and variations of the character. That's what we have now. It is, what it is. And people will fight about which "version" is real, but the fact is it comes down to personal choice. Multiple different versions of the character, some outright hostile to other interpretations. Welcome to the Superman fandom!

    You are even seeing elements of it now with the whole Nuperman/SuperDad/Merger issues going on. This is the way it's always been in the Superman books, there are multiple different fandoms who like different versions of the characters.

    This isn't the Batman stories, which even when they got a little silly never really strayed very far from the formula. It's the Superman mythos, where there really is a reason to talk about different "Ages" of the character.

    Only a few things are constant. Clark Kent wants to better the world around him, because of the powers he was blessed with. He works with, and falls in love with a woman named Lois Lane, who he often competes with. No matter the challenge he always tries to do what is right, and in the end he is likely to wink at the audience. He wears an S on his chest, and does super human things in order to solve whatever problem has arisen. He isn't power hungry, despite being powerful. He always protects people, especially those who can't protect themselves.

    The other details... change. Often. And fans fight.... a lot. It is, what it is.

  12. #87
    Kingdom Come Board Original Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by victorsage View Post
    If you try to make it "All one story" you have multiple character who are going to suffer from extreme personality disorders and a few suffering from outright multiple personalities. The timeline don't add up, the themes often clash, the characters don't mesh, hell certain versions of the same character would outright hate each other. All of that is even before you start to look at the Daily Newspaper Strips which is different still!
    First off, that's a helluva couple posts. Bravo. A lot to sift through there. I will definitely be re-reading these again

    However, as I've said, I think the contradictions and personality changes can be explained within the context of one man's life if you take into account the impossible larger-than-life nature of his adventures.

    My version used Superman's first use of time-travel to see Krypton's destruction as the catalyst for the initial split between Jerry Siegel's original rough n' tumble version and the more kid-friendly version epitomized by his subsequent creation of Superboy.

    Yes, the contradictions are there, but, given the near limitless possibilities available within Superman's exploits, that's hardly a problem. And those contradictions also don't necessarily make them completely different people. I know I am a very different man now than I was when I was in my twenties. I have fundamentally different views because of the experiences I have had, the mistakes I've made and so on. I think a fictional character like Superman is no different, only his experiences are played out on such a cosmic scale, it would of course involve time paradoxes, being split in two and more

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    Incredible Member victorsage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Yes, the contradictions are there, but, given the near limitless possibilities available within Superman's exploits, that's hardly a problem. And those contradictions also don't necessarily make them completely different people. I know I am a very different man now than I was when I was in my twenties. I have fundamentally different views because of the experiences I have had, the mistakes I've made and so on. I think a fictional character like Superman is no different, only his experiences are played out on such a cosmic scale, it would of course involve time paradoxes, being split in two and more
    Sorry, the stories aren't even in the same leagues, and personality traits don't change that much. Especially when their character drives and world views are so fundamentally different. In the end you are bound to pick one version of the character that you prefer and make it the dominate form, which as I said will not be the same for everyone. You can't circle that square, in the end you will pick a dominate version, which will not be the "true" Superman for everyone.

    You can't do with Superman the same things you can do with Batman. Their character histories aren't alike. Batman's has relatively been flat. Clark has gone through multiple world view changes, reboots, restorations, and inovations. Some that are outright against each other.

    There is a reason people talk about Superman with the "Ages" label, much more then they do any other super hero character. There are very real changes depending on what age you prefer. From the tone of the stories, to the personalities of the characters, everything changes, and there are little to no connections.

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    Notorious M.O.S. Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Except the most important one of all: it's still Superman. If we let out preferences dictate how we determine the identity of the character, we might as well say Busiek in 2006 and Cary Bates in 1976 wrote the same guy where Perez and Johns (both in 2011) didn't.


    Also, with Batman you can do many of the same things. The span of his character in the last 50 years is about as big as the span of Superman in 80 years.

  15. #90
    Kingdom Come Board Original Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by victorsage View Post
    Sorry, the stories aren't even in the same leagues, and personality traits don't change that much. Especially when their character drives and world views are so fundamentally different. In the end you are bound to pick one version of the character that you prefer and make it the dominate form, which as I said will not be the same for everyone. You can't circle that square, in the end you will pick a dominate version, which will not be the "true" Superman for everyone.

    You can't do with Superman the same things you can do with Batman. Their character histories aren't alike. Batman's has relatively been flat. Clark has gone through multiple world view changes, reboots, restorations, and inovations. Some that are outright against each other.

    There is a reason people talk about Superman with the "Ages" label, much more then they do any other super hero character. There are very real changes depending on what age you prefer. From the tone of the stories, to the personalities of the characters, everything changes, and there are little to no connections.
    Eh, different strokes, I guess. It all works for me as the story of one guy. If you can't wrap your mind around the differences, that's fine. It was nice hearing your thoughts on the matter though...

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