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  1. #361
    Mighty Member Aruran.'s Avatar
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    Slott's comments makes me wonder now if there are some of the "higher power" at Marvel that want Peter to go back to being a teenager.
    "What about wheatcakes next time?"-Peter
    "Wheatcakes are yucky."-Annie

  2. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackest Knight View Post
    Not really. Let's say only 1 out of every 10 Spider-Man fans dropped the book after OMD.
    And let's say you're pulling that number out of thin air.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackest Knight View Post
    Factor in Marvel's recently-adopted business strategy of adding 10% to 15% free overships of their books to try to buffer their margins on Diamond's sales orders chart.
    Factor in that ASM has only overshipped the ONE month that Marvel overshipped line wide.

    The core Spider-Man title has, for the last half-decade or so, been Marvel's best-selling super hero title.
    This has not always been the case. There was a time, for example, during the tail end of the spider-marriage, where New Avengers was Marvel's best-selling super hero title.
    There were times during the spider-marriage when X-Men and the X-Titles were the best selling Marvel titles.
    Amazing Spider-Man isn't always the best-selling Marvel title. It has been for a number of years now. And it's been doing that w/o the spider-marriage.

  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Slott View Post
    And let's say you're pulling that number out of thin air.
    The core Spider-Man title has, for the last half-decade or so, been Marvel's best-selling super hero title.
    This has not always been the case. There was a time, for example, during the tail end of the spider-marriage, where New Avengers was Marvel's best-selling super hero title.
    There were times during the spider-marriage when X-Men and the X-Titles were the best selling Marvel titles.
    Amazing Spider-Man isn't always the best-selling Marvel title. It has been for a number of years now. And it's been doing that w/o the spider-marriage.
    There's lot of things you can attribute sales to.

    In 1993, during the marriage, ASM was selling nearly 600,000 copies, a high-water mark to be sure. Though this was in the middle of the speculator comics boom.

    http://www.comichron.com/titlespotli...spiderman.html

    If high sales equate to or dictate what is deemed the best for the book, than by that logic, this is the era that should be emulated.

    ASM drops off significantly post Clone Saga in the late 90's, where the 4 titles settled into good but relatively low-stakes story lines compared to what came before. Marvel would reboot ASM & PP:SM to goose sales in 1999.

    Looking at ASM's performance post-OMD on Comichron, you see a book sliding further and further out of the top 10, the top 20, though they get to ring up ASM 3x times a month because it's the only title.

    http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...8/2008-01.html
    http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...8/2008-06.html
    http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...9/2009-01.html
    http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...9/2009-06.html

    Of course, the book's low performance at this time was attributed to the "whole industry" suffering lower and anemic sales.

  4. #364
    Astonishing Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    You don't have to poll anyone. You just have to look at the sales. If fans were against a single Spider-Man, sales would've collapsed. Many fans at the time predicted they would. They didn't.
    Fair point. But how much of that can be chalked up to reader's support and how much is simply brand loyalty? Spider-Man is one of the big names in the business; the brand can survive a lot of abuse. You also have loyal readers willing to stick it out through a bad run on the hopes that it'll get better someday.

    (Also, FIY, I've found that sales numbers and whatnot can be used to prove any position you want, depending on your starting point, biases, etc. Case in point, as I understand it, the number show that Spider-Man sold the best in the '90s, during the hey-day of the married era. Of course, one can object by citing outside influences that make it that, just like we can do now. Numbers easily support confirmation bias and don't reflect buyer's remorse.)

    Anyways, there's a fine line between a comic selling well and one being a "good" comic. For example, all the Star Wars are box office hits, but that doesn't mean that all of then are considered "good" movies, which is the logic that "ASM sells well, so it's a non-issue" seems to run on. Remember, just because I buy something, I don't automatically like it. Forget about the sales, did OMD make ASM a better series? That's what we disagree on.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    The problems with the marriage have been well-discussed over the years. No need to rehash them for the umpteenth time.
    Married, single, whatever, all have their strengths and weaknesses. IMHO, it's a pick your poison kind of thing. IMHO, the married setting provides a stronger base for storytelling, but it's not the only one. So, IMHO, we need both versions in use in different formats to get the most out of the potential of the franchise, which is a key problem of OMD; it removed a piece of the franchise from the table. It impoverished the franchise instead of enriching it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    That's simply a true statement. If someone wants to insist that they know more about a subject than someone who is actually in a far greater position to intimately know that subject, then that would fit the definition of being "unrealistic."

    But it is attempting to treat them like an adult. Which is a sign of respect. Would you prefer that Slott lie and foster false hope?

    He's telling you "Hey, look, this isn't happening. Ever. It's just how it is." And if the response back is essentially "Yeah, right! You don't know WHAT you're talking about! You'll see!" then who's actually insulting who here?
    Wishful thinking can be extremely powerful. It doesn't help when the person saying it has a track record of misleading readers in regards to future plans, not counting that the industry already has a reputation for going back on what they say, taking things back to normalcy, listening to readers in certain instances, etc. And there's this old idea that the easiest way to get egg on your face is to try and predict the future. There's also a fine line between saying: "I don't think something will ever happen because I can't see how the stars would align to allow it," as opposed to saying: "It cannot happen period." Case in point, I'm sure ten years ago the idea that Guardians of the Galaxy becoming one of Marvel's big names was laughable, yet here we are. (The point I'm making is, using hyperbole to make you point encourages people to look for the cracks in your argument. I'm also not saying Slott is wrong, but explaining what I see the mindset being of those still objecting.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    What people say doesn't matter. What people do is what matters.
    By that reasoning, the comics are the part of the franchise the fans care about the least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    People can and will gripe on message boards. But if people are still buying the comics, that's what tells the real tale of what customers care about.
    Maybe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    You're assuming that a married Spider-Man would sell better.
    There is precedent for it; the '90s were a good time for sales (see before for how sales enable confirmation bias), and the RYV miniseries was the best-selling Spider-Man comic of 2015 (and was universally praised for showing Peter and Mary Jane as a couple). That aside though, we really can't prove that one sells better than the other. In fact, I'd argue that the stories and art are a better indicator for how sales will go.

    There's also the little detail that the majority of the rest of the franchise (the stuff that brings in most of the new fans and influences the character far more than the comics do these days), is generally a lot more supportive of the pre-OMD iterations of the franchise, including the idea of Mary Jane being the Lois Lane of the Spider-Man franchise. In fact, looking at the franchise as a whole, you can play "One of these things is not like the others" with post-OMD 616 comics.

    (This's the issue I have with the whole "new fans will see post-OMD as their Spider-Man," given that post-OMD has little to do with the things that appear to be the gateways for new fans in this day and age. Honestly, if someone asked me how to get into Spider-Man comics, I'd say to read Ultimate, since that's what reflects the movies and cartoons the best.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    You're also assuming anyone at Marvel believes that.
    I think we can see that they don't (although it's interesting that they authorized a series based on that idea despite the audience for it ostensibly being too small to matter).

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Chart positions don't matter. It's the amount of copies sold that matter. ASM could be at #5 one month and #13 the next month but still sell the same amount of issues. A comic's position on the chart can change from month to month if new series are debuting and pushing it's chart placement down while still maintaining the same consistent sales.
    Maybe, but, dollars to doughnuts, the upcoming movie will shape the future of the franchise far more than anything the comics comes up with will.

  5. #365
    World's Greatest Hero blackspidey2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    There's lot of things you can attribute sales to.

    In 1993, during the marriage, ASM was selling nearly 600,000 copies, a high-water mark to be sure. Though this was in the middle of the speculator comics boom.

    http://www.comichron.com/titlespotli...spiderman.html

    If high sales equate to or dictate what is deemed the best for the book, than by that logic, this is the era that should be emulated.

    ASM drops off significantly post Clone Saga in the late 90's, where the 4 titles settled into good but relatively low-stakes story lines compared to what came before. Marvel would reboot ASM & PP:SM to goose sales in 1999.

    Looking at ASM's performance post-OMD on Comichron, you see a book sliding further and further out of the top 10, the top 20, though they get to ring up ASM 3x times a month because it's the only title.

    http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...8/2008-01.html
    http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...8/2008-06.html
    http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...9/2009-01.html
    http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...9/2009-06.html

    Of course, the book's low performance at this time was attributed to the "whole industry" suffering lower and anemic sales.
    Is that meant to be 600,000 copies a month or for the whole year? Because, while 600,000 copies a month is crazy huge, I wouldn't think 600,000 copies per year is that great.

  6. #366

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    When I was a kid, I wanted my parents to buy me whatever Spider-Man comic I saw. It didn't matter if I hadn't read the previous issue. It didn't matter to me that Spidey was married, and it didn't matter to me when MJ wasn't in an issue. I was just a kid loving Spider-Man.

    Flash forward to now: nobody younger than "us" gives two figs that Spidey used to be married. And the further we go into the future, the less people there will be who care.

    People - and especially the kids - are just going to want Spidey comics.

    -Pav, who can't imagine caring so much about this...
    This gets a bit complicated since figuring out what worked for kids who picked up Spider-Man comics isn't necessarily going to lead insights about how to get more kids to pick up Spider-Man comics.



    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    There's lot of things you can attribute sales to.

    In 1993, during the marriage, ASM was selling nearly 600,000 copies, a high-water mark to be sure. Though this was in the middle of the speculator comics boom.

    http://www.comichron.com/titlespotli...spiderman.html

    If high sales equate to or dictate what is deemed the best for the book, than by that logic, this is the era that should be emulated.

    ASM drops off significantly post Clone Saga in the late 90's, where the 4 titles settled into good but relatively low-stakes story lines compared to what came before. Marvel would reboot ASM & PP:SM to goose sales in 1999.

    Looking at ASM's performance post-OMD on Comichron, you see a book sliding further and further out of the top 10, the top 20, though they get to ring up ASM 3x times a month because it's the only title.

    http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...8/2008-01.html
    http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...8/2008-06.html
    http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...9/2009-01.html
    http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...9/2009-06.html

    Of course, the book's low performance at this time was attributed to the "whole industry" suffering lower and anemic sales.
    The link to the paid circulation figures is a bit misleading since it doesn't take into account the health of the industry. Someone trying to figure the most successful period to emulate would take into account that if the book ranked as well as an earlier period while selling a fraction as many copies, it's more likely to be due to what's going on in the rest of the industry than what's going on in this one title.

    Quote Originally Posted by blackspidey2099 View Post
    Is that meant to be 600,000 copies a month or for the whole year? Because, while 600,000 copies a month is crazy huge, I wouldn't think 600,000 copies per year is that great.
    That was per issue, or at least the issue that was used for the official publication data.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  7. #367
    Astonishing Member Ianbarreilles's Avatar
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    It's crazy to think that one more day will be turning 10 this September.

  8. #368
    World's Greatest Hero blackspidey2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    This gets a bit complicated since figuring out what worked for kids who picked up Spider-Man comics isn't necessarily going to lead insights about how to get more kids to pick up Spider-Man comics.




    The link to the paid circulation figures is a bit misleading since it doesn't take into account the health of the industry. Someone trying to figure the most successful period to emulate would take into account that if the book ranked as well as an earlier period while selling a fraction as many copies, it's more likely to be due to what's going on in the rest of the industry than what's going on in this one title.



    That was per issue, or at least the issue that was used for the official publication data.
    Oh, damn. It's crazy to think that the audience for comics has dropped nearly tenfold in twenty years. Thanks for explaining it to me though - I was having trouble figuring out the chart.

  9. #369
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    Convoluted isn't even a problem for most kids, I don't think.

    My first issue of a non-reprinted Spidey comic was the issue of Web with the shiny golden cover on which Spidey was fighting with Peter Parker. I came into Spidey comics at the beginning of the Clone Saga, and I was buying the issues pretty randomly and trying to piece together what was happening in the overall story.

    It was a delight.

    And I figured most of it out.

    Kids just want fun and interesting.

    It's the adults who can't handle things changing.

    -Pav, who knows that's true about more than comics...
    i think hardcore superhero readers naturally tend towards patience or tolerance for convolution or complexity. maybe they even desire it.

    i can remember plenty of friends when i was a kid who would hand back a comic book to me with either a shrug or a "can't be bothered". even as adults, these guys won't come into a series part way through whereas my "nerdier" buds leap headfirst into that stuff and kinda crave it.

    that's just a tiny sample size of my friendship circle, but i wouldn't be surprised if the majority of people were turned off by convolution.
    troo fan or death

  10. #370

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianbarreilles View Post
    It's crazy to think that one more day will be turning 10 this September.
    We're about a little more than a month from the tenth anniversary of the Swing Shift Free Comic Book Day special that kicked off Brand New Day.

    Quote Originally Posted by blackspidey2099 View Post
    Oh, damn. It's crazy to think that the audience for comics has dropped nearly tenfold in twenty years. Thanks for explaining it to me though - I was having trouble figuring out the chart.
    It's not fair to say that the audience for comics dropped tenfold. There is a bit more to it.
    1. Sales of one title aren't necessarily representative of the entire audience. People who aren't fans of Spider-Man might still pick up the Walking Dead, or various critically acclaimed memoirs.
    2. During the peak of the speculator bubble, you had a lot of people buying comics they weren't reading under the mistaken assumption these were investments. To be fair, sales today are sometimes inflated by variant covers, but not to the same extent.
    3. There are more ways to read the same comics than ever before. There are plenty of trade-waiters whose numbers would not be reflected in the sales figures for individual issues. There are multiple ways to read comics online (downloading digital copies, or going with an unlimited streaming service.)
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  11. #371
    BACK FROM THE BLEED Atomic Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Slott View Post
    Believe all you want.
    It AIN'T happening.
    I've told people this for 9 years.
    Me pitching RYV and getting permission from the Powers That Be to do it-- and it selling well enough to merit an ongoing-- is as good as you're going to get (so please keep the sales for Gerry & Ryan's book up, up, UP!).
    Every single editorial team since the marriage worked hard to undo it.
    You will not see the marriage restored in the core continuity ever.
    It's far more likely that you'd see a line-wide reboot that reset Spider-Man to high school years (and on model with the creators' original intent) then the marriage being restored. And THAT is never going to happen either.
    Again, believe all you want. Put MJ and her wedding dress or showing off her wedding ring in EVERY message board avatar in the world. Still never happening. Ever. Ever. Ever.
    I'm sure I'll be here next year telling you the same thing.
    Methinks there were some of your DC counterparts who said the New 52 would "never" be undone as well.

    The truth is, Marvel's comic division is in a creative spiral the likes of which haven't been seen since...well, I was going to say the 90s, but even the worst of the 90s was better than much of what Marvel is doing with its comics today.

    That includes some of your work as well, IMO. You've written some great stuff (Superior was brilliant, IMO) but, like much of what we've seen at DC since Rebirth as well as some bright spots here and there in the New 52 era, those stories could have worked just as easily without reboot/retcon cheats. Marvel seems to be all about gimmicks instead of compelling stories that respect and celebrate their iconic characters. There are always new stories to tell, and those stories don't require undoing marriages, killing characters, or resurrecting characters who were far more relevant when dead.

    I'd also like to see you work on other characters. Your Silver Surfer stuff is fantastic. I'd love to see you move on from Spidey and work some magic with the FF. Your Spidey/Torch series is among my favorite comics of the 21st century.

  12. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atomic Man View Post
    Methinks there were some of your DC counterparts who said the New 52 would "never" be undone as well.

    The truth is, Marvel's comic division is in a creative spiral the likes of which haven't been seen since...well, I was going to say the 90s, but even the worst of the 90s was better than much of what Marvel is doing with its comics today.

    That includes some of your work as well, IMO. You've written some great stuff (Superior was brilliant, IMO) but, like much of what we've seen at DC since Rebirth as well as some bright spots here and there in the New 52 era, those stories could have worked just as easily without reboot/retcon cheats. Marvel seems to be all about gimmicks instead of compelling stories that respect and celebrate their iconic characters. There are always new stories to tell, and those stories don't require undoing marriages, killing characters, or resurrecting characters who were far more relevant when dead.
    I'm pretty sure no one at DC is ever surprised when anything is undone. After all, this is company who is seemingly motivated by panic and kneejerk decision making.

    Marvel is in a creative surge, not spiral. If you don't like what Marvel is up to today, that's your prerogative as a reader but one could point to many, many current runs at Marvel that are either classics in the making or are simply incredibly strong runs. Off the top of my head, I can think of Aaron's Thor, Spencer's Captain America (both Sam and Steve), Waid's Black Widow, Soule and Garney's Daredevil, Duggan's Deadpool and Uncanny Avengers, Waid's Avengers (criminally underappreciated, by the way), Slott's Silver Surfer, and, yes, Slott's Spidey among others. Fans can bitch about it all they want but Slott's Spidey run is going to stand as a defining run for the character. Complain about it, deny it, but it's a fact.

    And if you're complaining about stories that don't require "undoing marriages, killing characters, or resurrecting characters who were far more relevant when dead", I guess you're against the kind of big upheavals and seismic changes that have always been a part of Marvel.
    Last edited by Prof. Warren; 03-20-2017 at 05:34 AM.

  13. #373
    Astonishing Member DieHard200904's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    We're about a little more than a month from the tenth anniversary of the Swing Shift Free Comic Book Day special that kicked off Brand New Day.



    It's not fair to say that the audience for comics dropped tenfold. There is a bit more to it.
    1. Sales of one title aren't necessarily representative of the entire audience. People who aren't fans of Spider-Man might still pick up the Walking Dead, or various critically acclaimed memoirs.
    2. During the peak of the speculator bubble, you had a lot of people buying comics they weren't reading under the mistaken assumption these were investments. To be fair, sales today are sometimes inflated by variant covers, but not to the same extent.
    3. There are more ways to read the same comics than ever before. There are plenty of trade-waiters whose numbers would not be reflected in the sales figures for individual issues. There are multiple ways to read comics online (downloading digital copies, or going with an unlimited streaming service.)
    I would add that you had Spider-Man in video games, movies, etc. with the onset of the 21st century too. I am the only one in the family who seems to bother with comic books at all, everyone else gets their kicks with the superhero movies.

  14. #374
    Astonishing Member DieHard200904's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aruran. View Post
    Slott's comments makes me wonder now if there are some of the "higher power" at Marvel that want Peter to go back to being a teenager.
    As far as I am concerned, I am certain that there are plenty that would like to write Peter Parker at least attending classes at a university, or maybe want to write an alternate universe version of Peter Parker who is in high school.

  15. #375
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    I'm pretty sure no one at DC is ever surprised when anything is undone. After all, this is company who is seemingly motivated by panic and kneejerk decision making.
    A good thing Marvel never undid the death of a goody two-shoes sidekick and brought him back as an anti-hero just months after DC did the same. And "the company seemingly motivated by panic and kneejerk decision making" is currently doing pretty well in sales and most of their "undoing" is producing some pretty strong stories, especially from titles like Superman and Wonder Woman.

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