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  1. #1141
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fearless Heart View Post
    And I know I'm not the brightest fella, so maybe I'm totally wrong and these guys are right. It's hard for me to remember anything besides classic Simpsons jokes.
    ha! i don't think it's either you or them are right or wrong, just that you can go a whole different bunch of ways and none are wrong, just that they serve different purposes.

    Heck, the reason I brought Grant Morrison's Batman up is because I hated it and went back to reading the old stuff. I then saw other fans loving it, and I gave it another shot and enjoyed it. Then I thought back on it, and I thought it was ridiculous. Then I thought...eh, it was pretty sweet. Then I read others opinions and I went back and forth, and I realized it was pretty great since it gave me so much to contemplate!
    yeah, i've experienced that with music and movies and comics. being open is a good way to be
    troo fan or death

  2. #1142
    Superman of E-6 Thor-Ul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Who is Ryan?
    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    not sure mate, this is a copy n paste. pretty sure it first appeared in a copy of back issue
    Paul Ryan.

    How fragile and ungrateful ist the memory.
    #Dr.Wertham would be proud of you.

  3. #1143
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    Oh! I never really associated him with Spider-Man. He did draw the wedding issue though, so that makes sense.

  4. #1144
    Notorious M.O.S. Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    ROMITA, SR.: During the months following the wedding I was not reading those issues, [since I had a] full plate with art director duties, etc. But my impression was there were lots of problems to work with down the road. But some good stories came from Peter’s travails as a husband.
    If Spider-Man were a real person, Jazzy John would be the equivalent of a marketing VP stepdad who oil rigs on the weekends.

    But anyway, the insistence on Peter as a "lovable loser" drove me away. As a teen he was withdrawn and socially awkward, but things changed. He wasn't some doe-eyed sap making quiet quips as he got knocked around the college campus, he folded his peers into the core cast. He hung out with attractive people and dated them a few years after his debut. To me, the animated series from the '90s is a lot more like Stan's Spider-Man than where the comics eventually went or rather, have been trying to go. I see the "young bachelor, head of industry who can't zip up his pants" as a reverse of where Stan was going. He's no longer grounded (well, that's the thing about Marvel's progression of the fantastic) but has all of these compensatory quirks to make me laugh or feel sorry for him or something. That won't stop me from reading the new Spectacular, but I can't say I'm reading it for the reason I started reading Spider-Man in the first place.

  5. #1145
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    If Spider-Man were a real person, Jazzy John would be the equivalent of a marketing VP stepdad who oil rigs on the weekends.

    But anyway, the insistence on Peter as a "lovable loser" drove me away. As a teen he was withdrawn and socially awkward, but things changed. He wasn't some doe-eyed sap making quiet quips as he got knocked around the college campus, he folded his peers into the core cast. He hung out with attractive people and dated them a few years after his debut. To me, the animated series from the '90s is a lot more like Stan's Spider-Man than where the comics eventually went or rather, have been trying to go. I see the "young bachelor, head of industry who can't zip up his pants" as a reverse of where Stan was going. He's no longer grounded (well, that's the thing about Marvel's progression of the fantastic) but has all of these compensatory quirks to make me laugh or feel sorry for him or something. That won't stop me from reading the new Spectacular, but I can't say I'm reading it for the reason I started reading Spider-Man in the first place.
    it's an ongoing conundrum from what i can tell. are comics meant to be servicing an aging audience or refreshing for a new one? can both be done at the same time?

    from the mix of responses from those creators re the marriage, it's obvious that there are a lot of viable options, it just depends on what your end goal is.
    troo fan or death

  6. #1146
    Incredible Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    To me, what makes a loser lovable is that they don't just stay that way. A person who just lives with it isn't very interesting to watch. It's seeing them find solutions to their problems that makes it worth seeing.

  7. #1147

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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    To me, what makes a loser lovable is that they don't just stay that way. A person who just lives with it isn't very interesting to watch. It's seeing them find solutions to their problems that makes it worth seeing.
    But when they find the solution, doesn't the story become about something else?
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  8. #1148
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    But when they find the solution, doesn't the story become about something else?
    that's part of the dilemma innit? as the "problems" are solved the character and status must change and with each change the story moves toward a finale.

    which works well for a movie or series that is finite, but presents a challenge for an indefinite ongoing serial. we've been seeing some of the fall out from the "illusion of change" policy for a while now.
    troo fan or death

  9. #1149
    Incredible Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    But when they find the solution, doesn't the story become about something else?
    Yeah, you have to keep adding new problems... which is rather realistic since that's how life works. You don't just live with the same problems all your life. Even if you don't solve them you'll get new ones. So there's no "the" solution really. So small changes to the current status quo, constantly. Which yeah, could be confusing to write. Thing is you don't really need to spend a lot of time on it. Actually it's probably best if you don't since it's a super-hero book with super-villains to fight.

  10. #1150

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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    that's part of the dilemma innit? as the "problems" are solved the character and status must change and with each change the story moves toward a finale.

    which works well for a movie or series that is finite, but presents a challenge for an indefinite ongoing serial. we've been seeing some of the fall out from the "illusion of change" policy for a while now.
    I'm not sure it moves towards a finale, because you can always go in some sort of different direction. However, there is still the problem that the new direction isn't the thing that made the series popular in the first place.

    For example, when Peter retired and was replaced by Ben Reilly, that wasn't a finale for the title, since it could go on for hundreds of issues. But it wasn't what drew readers to Spider-Man in the first place.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  11. #1151
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    Peter and MJ taught me as a teenager how to handle a grown up relationship. Pretty much what not to do like keep secrets or your hold in your feelings. I have been married for 13 years. Its not about servicing an older audience as much as it is giving lessons to people. At the end of the day, all of these stories are morality plays. Marvel and these Slott fans need to stop treating marriage as the Big Bad. Its fine Peter grew up. It actually makes more sense that Peter got something as great as MJ. Its his reward for all the terrible things life has handed to him and will continue to. I quit Spider-Man after One More Day and judging by the sales, I am not alone. I can't wait for Slott and the editors to leave, so we can get someone in there that realizes that the people reading these stories sometimes need grown up role models that show the teenager with issues does become a stable person.

  12. #1152
    Mighty Member Tuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I'm not sure it moves towards a finale, because you can always go in some sort of different direction. However, there is still the problem that the new direction isn't the thing that made the series popular in the first place.

    For example, when Peter retired and was replaced by Ben Reilly, that wasn't a finale for the title, since it could go on for hundreds of issues. But it wasn't what drew readers to Spider-Man in the first place.
    Ultimate was the way forward.

    It just needs to be planned to allow for a period of phasing in the new version as the eventual "canonical" version while phasing the old version out.

    The way to really make Spider-Man exist in the same form for each generation is to reboot every 20 years or so. (And maybe don't kill Gwen for once. That's officially boring at this point.)

  13. #1153
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    Quote Originally Posted by lotjx View Post
    It actually makes more sense that Peter got something as great as MJ. Its his reward for all the terrible things life has handed to him and will continue to.
    I greatly dislike "hot babe as a reward for the hero" narratives.

  14. #1154
    Mighty Member Tuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    I greatly dislike "hot babe as a reward for the hero" narratives.
    Action is his reward. They were pretty explicit about that.

  15. #1155
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Yeah, you have to keep adding new problems... which is rather realistic since that's how life works. You don't just live with the same problems all your life. Even if you don't solve them you'll get new ones. So there's no "the" solution really. So small changes to the current status quo, constantly. Which yeah, could be confusing to write. Thing is you don't really need to spend a lot of time on it. Actually it's probably best if you don't since it's a super-hero book with super-villains to fight.
    depends on what you mean by "new problems". new circumstantial challenges will be easier to swallow than new character flaws. it would be a little strange for peter to conquer one flaw, move towards maturity and then develop a new flaw for the sake of reader interest. over the course of 60 years, his character arc would be a maze.
    troo fan or death

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