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  1. #601
    Senior Member whiteshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suemorphplus209 View Post
    Johnny Blaze has a great deal to say about deals with Mephisto as well. I have to LOL at how many people never bothered reading the answer too.
    Johny Blaze,i would say it is diferent.Because Mephisto was part of the origin of that character.
    But that dialog from Mephisto in OMD,is about the same as any other dialog from other Mephisto stories.
    So all that melodramatic dialog from Mephisto is the same as any other story he appears against other heroes.
    And guess what,Mephisto keeps being a villain that never get any sort of victory against the heroes.
    So yeah,it is surprising to see some people reactions to the OMD story after all this years,just because he was the plot device chosen to the retcon.Just as the marriage of Peter and Mary Jane was a editorially driven story as well.
    The way i see it,it was not diferent using Mephisto from say Loki or Beyonder,because OMD was a editorially driven story to change a status quo.
    The only diference is with Mephisto that corny dialog is part of the character.

  2. #602
    Veteran Member Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    I don't see how anyone could look at the dregs left in the wake of OMD and say "I don't think there's a story to be told here."

    Peter going up against Mephisto again could be a really redemptive arc for him, one he desperately needs, and a cathartic one for readers, which we in turn desperately need.
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  3. #603
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteshark View Post
    Johny Blaze,i would say it is diferent.Because Mephisto was part of the origin of that character.
    But that dialog from Mephisto in OMD,is about the same as any other dialog from other Mephisto stories.
    So all that melodramatic dialog from Mephisto is the same as any other story he appears against other heroes.
    And guess what,Mephisto keeps being a villain that never get any sort of victory against the heroes.
    So yeah,it is surprising to see some people reactions to the OMD story after all this years,just because he was the plot device chosen to the retcon.Just as the marriage of Peter and Mary Jane was a editorially driven story as well.
    The way i see it,it was not diferent using Mephisto from say Loki or Beyonder,because OMD was a editorially driven story to change a status quo.
    The only diference is with Mephisto that corny dialog is part of the character.
    This is an incredibly loose and ill defined argument unless you can provide corrobarative evidence.

    The difference is I do not recall Mephisto ever making an actual deal with other characters that they went through with and promising them suffering before hand.

    I rememebr him saying stuff like they'll pay for defeating him or whatever. But literally Peter and Mj's suffering was PART of the goddam deal going in. He laid that out ont he table.

    If it was a business meeting he'd be the one saying he wants them to suffer and in exchange they'd get Aunt May's life. That was the entire point and frankly its goddam asinine of Mephisto to ever present this deal to the Parker's if he ISN'T going to get anything out of it.

    So it isn't just corny dialogue at all. That line of reasoning is ignorant of the specifics of the story.

    Again Mephisto literally showed up and said to them:

    "Let me retcon your marriage so that your two eternally suffer without realizing it and removing your love fucks over God and in exchange I will save Aunt May"

    Their suffering was EXPLICITELY part of the goddam deal. They knew that going in and had to decide if they wanted to AGREE to it. This wasn't a corny threat this was mephisto presenting his reasons for WANTING this deal in the first place.

    Plus there is nothing in any SPIDER-MAN story to suggest that Mephisto's word about their suffering shouldn't be trusted. Why would he lie about that. he might lie to spread chaos and confusion or to trick people for the sake of his deals but his lies almost always in my experiences have been done for his own benefit. What purpose would it serve him to pretend to them that they'd suffer immensely but actually they wouldn't. If he wants them to agree NOT telling them that would actually make it MORE likely they'd agree, not less. By telling them they'd suffer it's presenting a massive incentive for them to not agree.

    Then you have the fact that Peter's loss wasn't the result of Mephisto's trick. At best the thing Mephisto tricked them over was their possible future child which was just a cruel and disgusting element to the story so I headcanon that he was BSing over that. At worst if you go by OMIT if Peter hadn't followed the red pigeon apparently he could've used the power of love and chest compressions to prevent Aunt May from dying all along, so Mephisto DID trick him.

    Peter's actual loss, the ongoing loss he's suffering and the ongoing win Mephisto has (and apparently he's fully aware of it to boot if you go by Deadpool continuity) was that he HANDED Mephisto what he wanted. The loss was Peter being summarily unheroic and irresponsible and selling out himself, MJ, God and everything Aunt May and Uncle Ben had ever raised him to believe in all because he 'couldn't live with the guilt'.

    THAT is why Peter lost and that is the ongoing demonic victory hanging over the series right now.
    The saddest part is as asinine as the build up was the potential was there for one of the greatest moments in Spider-Man history.

    Imagine Peter at that lowest of ebbs in his life and with his character eviscerated so horribly by OMD part 4 and with MJ even trying to get him to agree to the deal...and at the end of the day he remembers his values stands up straight like a goddam man and says fuck you to the Devil, because he'd never betray Aunt May, MJ or everything he believes in.

    THAT could've been powerful, even if Aunt May had somehow still lived.

  4. #604
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    I don't see how anyone could look at the dregs left in the wake of OMD and say "I don't think there's a story to be told here."

    Peter going up against Mephisto again could be a really redemptive arc for him, one he desperately needs, and a cathartic one for readers, which we in turn desperately need.
    I don't even think we should go that route. Just explain why he was so OOC and then explain why Mephisto was too by saying it wasn't Mephisto in the first place

  5. #605
    Senior Member whiteshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidercide View Post
    This is an incredibly loose and ill defined argument unless you can provide corrobarative evidence.

    The difference is I do not recall Mephisto ever making an actual deal with other characters that they went through with and promising them suffering before hand.
    Really?
    So you never read any other story with Mephisto before?
    That corny dialog is part of Mephisto characterisation ever since this character was created in the 60s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spidercide View Post
    I rememebr him saying stuff like they'll pay for defeating him or whatever. But literally Peter and Mj's suffering was PART of the goddam deal going in. He laid that out ont he table.

    If it was a business meeting he'd be the one saying he wants them to suffer and in exchange they'd get Aunt May's life. That was the entire point and frankly its goddam asinine of Mephisto to ever present this deal to the Parker's if he ISN'T going to get anything out of it.
    Villains doing stupid things is not surprising.
    In other news water is wet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spidercide View Post
    So it isn't just corny dialogue at all. That line of reasoning is ignorant of the specifics of the story.

    Again Mephisto literally showed up and said to them:

    "Let me retcon your marriage so that your two eternally suffer without realizing it and removing your love fucks over God and in exchange I will save Aunt May"

    Their suffering was EXPLICITELY part of the goddam deal. They knew that going in and had to decide if they wanted to AGREE to it. This wasn't a corny threat this was mephisto presenting his reasons for WANTING this deal in the first place.
    Nope,sorry but thats just part of Mephisto chgaracterisation.
    All that corny dialog and such.
    If it was a story about Wolverine and Mephisto,Mephisto would have the same corny and melodramatic dialog.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spidercide View Post
    Plus there is nothing in any SPIDER-MAN story to suggest that Mephisto's word about their suffering shouldn't be trusted. Why would he lie about that. he might lie to spread chaos and confusion or to trick people for the sake of his deals but his lies almost always in my experiences have been done for his own benefit. What purpose would it serve him to pretend to them that they'd suffer immensely but actually they wouldn't. If he wants them to agree NOT telling them that would actually make it MORE likely they'd agree, not less. By telling them they'd suffer it's presenting a massive incentive for them to not agree.
    Why would a character named Prince of lies do something like that ?
    Again because that corny dialogs is part of the characterisation of the character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spidercide View Post
    Then you have the fact that Peter's loss wasn't the result of Mephisto's trick. At best the thing Mephisto tricked them over was their possible future child which was just a cruel and disgusting element to the story so I headcanon that he was BSing over that. At worst if you go by OMIT if Peter hadn't followed the red pigeon apparently he could've used the power of love and chest compressions to prevent Aunt May from dying all along, so Mephisto DID trick him.

    Peter's actual loss, the ongoing loss he's suffering and the ongoing win Mephisto has (and apparently he's fully aware of it to boot if you go by Deadpool continuity) was that he HANDED Mephisto what he wanted. The loss was Peter being summarily unheroic and irresponsible and selling out himself, MJ, God and everything Aunt May and Uncle Ben had ever raised him to believe in all because he 'couldn't live with the guilt'.
    Actually it was Mary Jane that made the deal not Spider-Man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spidercide View Post
    THAT is why Peter lost and that is the ongoing demonic victory hanging over the series right now.
    What is this?
    Fan fiction?
    "Ongoing demonic victory",give me a break.
    Mephisto was only a plot device in a editorially driven story,it could had been Loki or Beyonder the character,but it was Mephisto ,and as anybody that have read stories with Mephisto knows that corny dialog is part of the character.


    Quote Originally Posted by Spidercide View Post
    The saddest part is as asinine as the build up was the potential was there for one of the greatest moments in Spider-Man history.

    Imagine Peter at that lowest of ebbs in his life and with his character eviscerated so horribly by OMD part 4 and with MJ even trying to get him to agree to the deal...and at the end of the day he remembers his values stands up straight like a goddam man and says fuck you to the Devil, because he'd never betray Aunt May, MJ or everything he believes in.

    THAT could've been powerful, even if Aunt May had somehow still lived.
    Spider -man stories are full of tragedies,starting from the origin story.
    So having a story in which Mary Jane agrees to switch the marriage for Aunt May life is sad but not as contrived and a example of bad writing as i read in some reviews about the OMD story.
    So i really dont have that negative opinion about OMD.
    Because it is a editorially driven story that have Mephisto as a plot device,so i dont see this story or Amazing Spider Man Annual 21 (another editorially driven story) as i see any other regular Spider-Man story.

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