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  1. #1
    Veteran Member Doctor Know's Avatar
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    Default Crimes Of The Illuminati: The Great Society and their Earth

    So during Hickman's New Avengers run the Illuminati studied, planed and created a way to destroy alternate Earths during the event of an Incursion. They destroyed several Earths which had previously been vacant of all life thanks to the Black Priests or Mapmakers committing genocide on the planet first. However, when Earth 616 and Earth 4,290,001 were set to collide, the Illuminati were set with an impossible choice. Defeat the Justice League pastiche and destroy their world, to save their own. Or allow the Great Society to win and have their own planet destroyed.







    While it was Namor who threw the first punch between the two groups and who would ultimately be the one to trigger the anti-matter bomb placed on Earth 4,290,001. Dr Strange is the one responsible for killing most of the Great Society members, when he released that dark beast creature. Although many of the Illuminati members asserted their intent and held the device to detonate the bomb, none could trigger it and end a world and billions of lives. However, they still built the weapon and it was successfully detonated. How can the Illuminati members justify their actions, especially when none of them were held accountable for it? Sure, Time Runs Out was about Captain America and his Avengers bringing them to justice, but it went nowhere. Time was running out and the cause for Cap and his crew devolved into a feud by the end of it. As Captain America in a power armor died slugging it out against Iron Man while Earth 616 was breaking up around them.
    Last edited by Doctor Know; 03-12-2017 at 06:53 PM.

  2. #2
    Veteran Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
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    First off, you shouldn't attempt to bury or mitigate the fact that they changed their minds. They abandoned their plans precisely because they were unwilling to follow through with them. I would also point out Doctor Strange's actions weren't entirely under his control, although he was certainly very negligent in creating that situation. I would finally point out the Illuminati fully intended to work peacefully with the Great Society until the Great Society found out they had a weapon and no longer trusted them. Obviously, the central conceit of the story is that it's impossible to find another way, but the story was set up so it's the actions of the Great Society that prevented them from even attempting another path.
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  3. #3
    CBB 4 LIFE Mr MajestiK's Avatar
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    Interesting thread premises.

    I'll drop my thoughts when I've had some much needed sleep.
    Enjoying the camraderie of friends and family is all that matters in the world.

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  4. #4
    Veteran Member Doctor Know's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    First off, you shouldn't attempt to bury or mitigate the fact that they changed their minds. They abandoned their plans precisely because they were unwilling to follow through with them.
    I didn't fail to acknowledge that several Illuminati members did change their minds, after declaring they would be the ones to trigger the bomb. However, they had already crossed a big red line when they as a whole, but Strange as an individual killed most of the GS and left Sun God weak and powerless to die on his own Earth. They were complacement with their actions thus far up to that point, but going the next step gave many of them pause. Still murder, even if they decided not to destroy Earth.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    I would also point out Doctor Strange's actions weren't entirely under his control, although he was certainly very negligent in creating that situation.
    I don't think the "Bucky Defense" is going to save Strange in this case. He was desperate and wanted power to win, and he unleashed something that did just that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    I would finally point out the Illuminati fully intended to work peacefully with the Great Society until the Great Society found out they had a weapon and no longer trusted them. Obviously, the central conceit of the story is that it's impossible to find another way, but the story was set up so it's the actions of the Great Society that prevented them from even attempting another path.
    Kind of hard to expect anyone to trust the Illuminati after you learn that have a big gun pointed at their heads. Or rather a bomb capable of incinerating a planet, just waiting to be armed and detonated. The Illuminati came prepared to go nuclear is the issue. The rub comes from meeting people who fight for justice with valor and honor, just like they used to.

  5. #5
    Epic Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Few Things...

    - Strange isn't a super hero. He is the Sorcerer Supreme. His job is to protect Earth, period. And even he didn't press the button when he snapped out of it.

    - The Great Society had no plans either. And they weren't going to let their Earth die. You can draw your own conclusions there, but considering the survived multiple incursions... they were not going to sit around and watch both earths go boom.

    - The central issue of the entire story was there was no winners. It was impossible. It was either press the button and kill a whole planet... or do nothing and watch your planet die. Or the third option... watch both planets collide and kill everyone.

    "figure out a way not to lose" ended up being the core mantra.

    The Illuminati all talked a big game. About being kings and protectors and doing what no other hero could.... until they couldn't. They couldn't sell their soul to save their planet.

    Except Namor. Namor laughed at the selfishness.

    And Strange. Kind of. Considering he killed them all and then afterwards, went to become head of the Black Priest (who killed worlds constantly). But ocne again, hes a Sorcerer Supreme, not Captain America.
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  6. #6
    Veteran Member Knives's Avatar
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    I have no problem with their choice taking into account what was at stake but they believe that 7 or 8 people have the right to decide something of this relevance hiding this from other heroes, governments and other people in the world is of such arrogance that leaves me perplexed.

    The Illuminatis are exactly this people who always believed they had the right to decide any question without having to respond to anyone.

    They threw the Hulk into space and we all know how it ended.

    And one of the great examples of why the heroic community has received criticism and mistrust from ordinary people.

    Frankly, the fact that Namor was the scapegoat does not releases others of their responsibility.

  7. #7
    Veteran Member UltimateTy's Avatar
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    I forgot about how many interesting discussions Hickman's Avengers brought to this board

    Those were the days.
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  8. #8
    Veteran Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Know View Post
    I didn't fail to acknowledge that several Illuminati members did change their minds, after declaring they would be the ones to trigger the bomb. However, they had already crossed a big red line when they as a whole, but Strange as an individual killed most of the GS and left Sun God weak and powerless to die on his own Earth. They were complacement with their actions thus far up to that point, but going the next step gave many of them pause. Still murder, even if they decided not to destroy Earth.
    I didn't say you failed to acknowledge it, I said you buried it.

    I'll start out with the obvious. Building those weapons legitimately can be self-defense. You seemingly agreed (and the narrative certainly agrees) that it's OK to kill a dead planet before they collide.

    Also, it's not like, if they do nothing, only their Earth dies. Unless the Great Society intended to kill them too (which there isn't any evidence of), not acting will kill them both anyway. Not only them, but both of their entire universes. So not acting would cause far more deaths than acting did and it wouldn't prevent any of the deaths either. The only exception is if the Great Society also intended to kill them. If that's the case, how is it not self-defense?
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knives View Post
    I have no problem with their choice taking into account what was at stake but they believe that 7 or 8 people have the right to decide something of this relevance hiding this from other heroes, governments and other people in the world is of such arrogance that leaves me perplexed.

    The Illuminatis are exactly this people who always believed they had the right to decide any question without having to respond to anyone.

    They threw the Hulk into space and we all know how it ended.

    And one of the great examples of why the heroic community has received criticism and mistrust from ordinary people.

    Frankly, the fact that Namor was the scapegoat does not releases others of their responsibility.
    This was probably the biggest flaw in the premise/set up, that they didn't want to tell the other heroes. There's really no logical reason for it ( or mind wiping Cap).

  10. #10
    Epic Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    This was probably the biggest flaw in the premise/set up, that they didn't want to tell the other heroes. There's really no logical reason for it ( or mind wiping Cap).
    There is a perfectly logical reason.

    The "heroes" would stop them from doing what is necessary. The Caps, Blue Marvels, Janet's of the world would not let them pull the trigger to blow up an inhabited world. Hell, Remender in Uncanny Avengers showed how strong Janet's conviction one... she doomed the earth because she wouldn't kill ONE person lol.

    That was 100% the reason to mind wipe Cap and it was spelled out over and over in those first issues. He would not entertain the thought of blowing up a world. He was 100% against it.

    The Illuminati saw themselves above "heroes." They thought that, push comes to shove, they would do what "heroes" could not.

    But, when push came to shove, only half Strange and then Namor could actually do it. (so you could say the Illuminati actually worked as intended I suppose).

    At that point, when they decided to essentially give up... THAT is when not telling anyone kinda fails. They realized they couldn't do it and they should have gotten more people involved.

    Of course, by that point, Cap went full retard so *shrug*
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  11. #11
    Epic Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post

    Also, it's not like, if they do nothing, only their Earth dies. Unless the Great Society intended to kill them too (which there isn't any evidence of), not acting will kill them both anyway. Not only them, but both of their entire universes. So not acting would cause far more deaths than acting did and it wouldn't prevent any of the deaths either. The only exception is if the Great Society also intended to kill them. If that's the case, how is it not self-defense?
    Yeah that always seems to be ignored.

    The GS did not just roll over and accept death. They pushed back many incursions and they were fighting for this one too.

    Logic states they (especially Ryder and maybe the magic kid) may have pulled a Namor as well.
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  12. #12
    Junior Member Haquim's Avatar
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    Most of the Illuminati actually paid for their choices ("Crimes" is a debatable term, given the outcome of different choices than theirs).

    -Iron Man died fighting Captain America during the last incursion (no good end there, they fought each other to the last breath... Cap last fight wasn't against the likes of the Red Skull but against Tony Stark).
    -Namor went to become a member of the Cabal then got disillusioned, got betrayed, survived and then was killed during the Squadron Supreme run after secret wars.
    -Black Bolt died during the incursions
    -Beast died during the incursions
    -Strange sold half his soul for nothing, became the leader of the Black Priests (which were the multiverse antibodies btw), joined Doom, saved the multiverse from erasure, helped Doom rule battleworld for 8 years and then was killed by Doom.

    As you see most of the illuminati paid for their choices. One could also argue that Mr fantastic lost everything before the final showdown with Doom (and the Susan, Franklin and Valeria living with him currently may very well not be his original family but Dooms' which were saved from a reality where Doom stopped Apocalyse blowing away the Fantastic Four WITHOUT Reed Richards).

  13. #13
    Veteran Member Shinglepants's Avatar
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    Haquim lays it out nicely, I think it's fair to say the Illuminati did suffer consequences for their choices.

    Also, Hickmans run was amazing. The stuff with the Great Society and Namor and Strange was fascinating.
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  14. #14
    Epic Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haquim View Post
    Most of the Illuminati actually paid for their choices ("Crimes" is a debatable term, given the outcome of different choices than theirs).

    -Iron Man died fighting Captain America during the last incursion (no good end there, they fought each other to the last breath... Cap last fight wasn't against the likes of the Red Skull but against Tony Stark).
    -Namor went to become a member of the Cabal then got disillusioned, got betrayed, survived and then was killed during the Squadron Supreme run after secret wars.
    -Black Bolt died during the incursions
    -Beast died during the incursions
    -Strange sold half his soul for nothing, became the leader of the Black Priests (which were the multiverse antibodies btw), joined Doom, saved the multiverse from erasure, helped Doom rule battleworld for 8 years and then was killed by Doom.

    As you see most of the illuminati paid for their choices. One could also argue that Mr fantastic lost everything before the final showdown with Doom (and the Susan, Franklin and Valeria living with him currently may very well not be his original family but Dooms' which were saved from a reality where Doom stopped Apocalyse blowing away the Fantastic Four WITHOUT Reed Richards).
    - T'challa was abandoned by his ancestors, had his country obliterated, watched his sister basically commit warrior suicide, and even when he saved everyting, his sister was still "gone," and he had a revolution/rebellion on his hands due to Thanos being the straw that broke the publics back.
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  15. #15
    Veteran Member Knives's Avatar
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    Unfortunately Cap did not have a good accusation to arrest them.

    If mutants are already treated in such a bad way and have no legal protection from governments even worse people from an Earth from a parallel universe.

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