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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I like the idea Zero Hunter, but let me ask you this;

    Martin Stein is the only consistent aspect of Firestorm across all media; he's in the CW show, the Injustice 2 game, and the JLA cartoon, as well as the comics. He's likely more well known than any of the young partners who have shared Firestorm (which is not saying much, but still).

    So could you downplay Stein as much as you're talking about here without it negatively impacting the book's sales potential?
    I think you could if done right. He would still be around just not in the drivers seat. Maybe just say that with his age his body just can't handle the fusing anymore, and that is why he is in more the support role now. I think him serving as the mentor of both Ronnie and Jason could open up some new posibilities for him.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I like the idea Zero Hunter, but let me ask you this;

    Martin Stein is the only consistent aspect of Firestorm across all media; he's in the CW show, the Injustice 2 game, and the JLA cartoon, as well as the comics. He's likely more well known than any of the young partners who have shared Firestorm (which is not saying much, but still).

    So could you downplay Stein as much as you're talking about here without it negatively impacting the book's sales potential?
    Why am I remembering a cartoon version with just Ronnie and Jason - was that Batman Brave and the Bold? Ronnie was older, he was the gym teacher.

  3. #18
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlennSimpson View Post
    Why am I remembering a cartoon version with just Ronnie and Jason - was that Batman Brave and the Bold? Ronnie was older, he was the gym teacher.
    Yep, that was Brave and the Bold.

    That dynamic was fun, but only really worked in a more comedic take like Brave and the Bold .

  4. #19
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    Just turn Firestorm into a sort of captain planet incorporating all the characters but make sure its in jason's body
    problem solved

  5. #20
    Time for Dissection FlashingSabre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I agree putting Jason on the sidelines looks bad. I wasn't a *huge* fan of his character but still, it shows a lack of awareness that is troubling.

    What I think I'd like to see is Stein, Ronnie, Jason, and Lorraine all connected to the Firestorm Matrix so no one gets the short-end. Firestorm doesnt have enough die-hard fans to keep a book alive, and they're split over who they prefer in the first place. Seems like bad business to take that small foundation and break it in half, even if the book's success would hinge on expanding the readership anyway.

    So I say use all four and let them fuse in any combination of two. Each brings a slightly different powerset or application of the Matrix with them so you could get some fun combinations (apparently this is how the New52 series handled it, or so Im told). And if you're so inclined all four can merge to create that giant monster from the New52 series.

    I'd also spread their ages around, to encourage different viewpoints and fun interactions. Stein is in his 60's, Ronnie's in his twenties (about Nightwing's age, and only because Killer Frost is in that age group and she's too good to change otherwise I'd have Ronnie much younger) Lorraine is in her 40's and Jason I'd make a young teen, about 14 (younger than usual, but I dont think there's enough difference between 18 and 23 to really matter). I'd like to avoid the idea of everyone fusing with a "regular" partner, but if it had to be done I think you could get a lot of mileage out of a very young Jason fusing with a Lorraine who's older and has her life together. Not unlike Stein's relationship with the various people he's partnered with over the years.

    And I think you have to make Firestorm more important to the DCU. Stein should be the guy in charge of STAR Labs. Not just the division head for one of the labs, but the whole organization. Sure, there'd be a board of directors to handle the business side of things but I want to see Martin being the one who decides which projects get funding and how much they get, and really just make him central to the science-side of DC. This would make him the boss of half the scientists in the DCU, which is a pretty lofty position. Lorraine I'd make a young Senator, politically Independent and very powerful within government because she'll cross party lines (look up Olympia Snow to see what I mean; she was called one of the most powerful Republicans in America because she'd work with Democrats), who's a leftist on social issues but can't help looking at Firestorm/Firehawk as a nuclear deterrent, to Stein's great alarm and concern.

    And I'd like to see Ronnie treated as less of an idiot. I'd make him a former athlete who busted his leg and still has the limp, who isn't college material but has certifications in a couple different trade skills (mechanic, welder, high class driver's license) and successfully built a career as a mechanic and makes solid, if not great, money. Jason would be an exceptional student from a broken home, always trying to break free from his situation, which he sees as chains around his neck (should be meta enough for DC). I'd like to avoid the "child prodigy" extremes but I'd still like to put a toe over that line; Jason's brilliant, just not in your standard "OMG Smartest there is!" comic book way. He could have already graduated from high school if his father would sign off on it, but he's not building nuclear reactors in his garage at twelve years old or anything either.

    I think that's a fairly solid mix; Martin would "use" Firestorm for scientific research (and get into adventures in the process), Lorraine brings in the political thriller/Firestorm Protocol concepts, Jason gives you the wish fulfillment superhero stories (because what kid isn't going to wanna be a hero when they get powers?) and Ronnie brings the Everyman viewpoint to the table.
    This is really similar to my idea of what they should do. Age Jason up a year or two and I'd buy it today.
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  6. #21
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashingSabre View Post
    This is really similar to my idea of what they should do. Age Jason up a year or two and I'd buy it today.
    I wrestled with the idea of putting Jason at such a young age, but in the end the math is what did him in.

    On the one hand, in my idea we're leaving the white people at their normal ages, or in Lorraine's case making her a little older. I feel bad about it being the black kid who gets five years knocked out of him.

    But I think (part of) the key to success *might* be the generation gap/s and exploring how that impacts the dynamics and how age and experience (or lack thereof) is a factor in how each cast member views Firestorm conceptually (this ties into a shift in themes that I haven't gotten into). And originally Firestorm was created to be DC's answer to Peter Parker, so I really wanted to have a very young hero involved for that "Ultimate Parker/Miles Morales" feel.

    Lorraine I definitely wanted to use as a politician, to offset Stein's PoV a bit and bring in the military-industrial complex stuff for the plots. So she had to be in her thirties at the absolute youngest (forties really if she's going to have any authority at all in the Senate). So either Ronnie or Jason were going to be de-aged to create a nice spread. And I really like what they've been doing with Killer Frost, who appears to be in her early twenties. Given how awesome that character is right now I didn't want to screw with that, and since Ronnie and Frost have a history, that meant keeping Ronnie in his twenties.

    So Jason is the one who had to bite the bullet.
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  7. #22
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    I agree that Jason or Ronnie, Stein is the most vital element. He's what sets Firestorm apart - no other hero brings the old wise mentor to the fight as intellectual backup. In their own head.

    Lorraine has her own identity, having her in the matrix once or twice was fun, but she is Firehawk.

    Here's something that just went from my head: Stein can fuse with Ronnie and Jason. Ronnie does inorganic transmutation, Jason does organic transmutation. The catch is that organic transmutation is, well, organic transmutation. If you ever studied organic chemistry, you know how complicated it is. If its attached to organic lifeforms that breathe and live, its even more complicated. When Firestorm could do it during Jason's time, it was regarded as very, very dangerous.

    So, Jason is Firestorm's "Nuclear Option", if you will.

    New52 tried to settle a path that made both Jason and Ronnie fans happy, made neither.

  8. #23
    Incredible Member Nix Uotan's Avatar
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    My own thoughts were that Stein perhaps becomes the fixed point of the Firestorm Matrix but he needs another person to turn into Firestorm. And he chooses either Ronnie, Jason or Jax with each merger creating a Firestorm with a somewhat different power set. So like Ronnie could be all the fire based offensive attacks, Jason could be the transmutation and perhaps Jax could be merging with materials like technology. And these three kids along with their respective families become part of the supporting cast.

    I would also perhaps use something like The Flash show where an experiment creates a burst of energy that empowers various people with nuclear abilities. And do some big science adventures. Explore the nature of the Firestorm Matrix being the spark of the Big Bang. Look at concepts such as God Particles, Dark Matter and so on. And then of course, build some intriguing arch-enemies. I quite like Multiplexs new motivations that Conway did in the Legends book. Wouldn't mind seeing a resurgence in Tokamak. Oh and bring back Pozhar as a kind of anti-hero who was a research contemporary of Stein who has more strict views on control of nuclear power:
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  9. #24
    Incredible Member KoriandrJean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nix Uotan View Post
    My own thoughts were that Stein perhaps becomes the fixed point of the Firestorm Matrix but he needs another person to turn into Firestorm. And he chooses either Ronnie, Jason or Jax with each merger creating a Firestorm with a somewhat different power set. So like Ronnie could be all the fire based offensive attacks, Jason could be the transmutation and perhaps Jax could be merging with materials like technology. And these three kids along with their respective families become part of the supporting cast.

    I would also perhaps use something like The Flash show where an experiment creates a burst of energy that empowers various people with nuclear abilities. And do some big science adventures. Explore the nature of the Firestorm Matrix being the spark of the Big Bang. Look at concepts such as God Particles, Dark Matter and so on. And then of course, build some intriguing arch-enemies. I quite like Multiplexs new motivations that Conway did in the Legends book. Wouldn't mind seeing a resurgence in Tokamak. Oh and bring back Pozhar as a kind of anti-hero who was a research contemporary of Stein who has more strict views on control of nuclear power:
    Y'all do realize that Jason and Jax are the same person, right?

    EDIT: My bad, GlennSimpson just pointed out that Jax is based on a different character than Jason Rausch.

    Of course, this brings up the question why they didn't use Jason in the show?
    Last edited by KoriandrJean; 03-17-2017 at 05:55 PM. Reason: Acknowledging an error.

  10. #25
    Incredible Member Nix Uotan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoriandrJean View Post
    Y'all do realize that Jason and Jax are the same person, right?
    How do? Only similarity is that they are black though from what I know. Jax from the show is a bit more like Ronnie whereas Jason was more the brainy one who was studying hard for the good grades (at least in the New 52). I could see the two getting very different personalities from one another. To me, I'd have Jax as that in-between from the Jason personality and the Ronnie one. But anyway, that's just my idea of a Rebirth. Not everyone will like it but I thought of this as a way of incorporating all the different versions of Firestorm with Stein being the centre of everything.

    EDIT: And even if they were similar, one could always change Jefferson Jacksons personality. It's not like he has appeared in the comics since Conways run. The character is open to change and making him an original creation.
    Last edited by Nix Uotan; 03-17-2017 at 04:58 PM.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoriandrJean View Post
    Y'all do realize that Jason and Jax are the same person, right?
    They actually aren't. In the Flash episodes that were introducing Stein and Ronnie, Barry met Jason, who was a student of Stein's or something like that. Totally different character on the show.

    And in the comics, Jefferson Jackson was a high school friend of Ronnie Raymond (they were on the basketball team together) although there's not much similarity with the TV version.

    So yeah, Jason and Jax have always been separate characters.

  12. #27
    Incredible Member KoriandrJean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlennSimpson View Post
    They actually aren't. In the Flash episodes that were introducing Stein and Ronnie, Barry met Jason, who was a student of Stein's or something like that. Totally different character on the show.

    And in the comics, Jefferson Jackson was a high school friend of Ronnie Raymond (they were on the basketball team together) although there's not much similarity with the TV version.

    So yeah, Jason and Jax have always been separate characters.
    My bad! Sorry!

  13. #28
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    I've never picked up a Firestorm book, despite being interested in the character, because of subpar art. So, if it were up to me, I'd get someone like Jesus Saiz or Emanuela Lupacchino on art. Something clean and modern to offset a character I associate with being very dated and irrelevant. This is essential if you ask me.

    I'd downplay the fire aspect. It's generic. And with the transmutation, don't just have him use it to fight supervillains. Have him change the world. This is a hero who can solve the world's clean water problem and other huge world issues, which could make for interesting conflicts and discussions between the two halves of Firestorm who perhaps have different beliefs about how to use this incredible power.

    I would also go with Jax/Stein as the main characters. This is probably sacrilegious to some, but I'd kick off the book (or in a JL story) with Ronnie/Jason for whatever reason becoming a villain (maybe the Firestorm mindmelding eventually ends up destroying their minds) and they nearly destroy the world, taking on the entire JL with ease, before being put down (perhaps by the JLA's Killer Frost, the only one who can), and the world gets its first true glimpse of the power of Firestorm. So when Stein chooses Jax to become the next Firestorm, perhaps there's a discussion about the risk of being Firestorm. While they can do so much good, are they just a ticking time bomb? How does the world react to another Nuclear Man?

    Make the scope massive, while also being about a relationship at it's core, an endearing father/son relationship and all the themes that come with that, namely communication, which imaginably also mirror the books bigger themes, the relationships between countries, something that the Nuclear Man's existence would definitely affect.
    Last edited by SmokeMonster; 03-17-2017 at 08:08 PM.

  14. #29
    Astonishing Member unclepulky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeMonster View Post
    I've never picked up a Firestorm book, despite being interested in the character, because of subpar art. So, if it were up to me, I'd get someone like Jesus Saiz on art. Clean and modern. I think this is the most important thing.

    I'd downplay the fire aspect. It's generic. And with the transmutation, don't just have him use it to fight supervillains. Have him change the world. This is a hero who can solve the world's clean water problem and other huge world issues, which could make for interesting conflicts and discussions between the two halves of Firestorm who perhaps have different beliefs about how to use this incredible power.

    I would also go with Jax/Stein as the main characters. This is probably sacrilegious to some, but I'd kick off the book (or in a JL story) with Ronnie/Jason for whatever reason becoming a villain (maybe the Firestorm mindmelding eventually ends up destroying their minds) and they nearly destroy the world, taking on the entire JL with ease, before being put down, and the world gets its first true glimpse of the power of Firestorm. So when Stein chooses Jax to become the next Firestorm, perhaps there's a discussion about the risk of being Firestorm. While they can do so much good, are they just a ticking time bomb? How does the world react to another Firestorm?

    Make the scope massive, while also being about a relationship at it's core, an endearing father/son relationship and all the themes that come with that, namely communication, which imaginably also mirror the books bigger themes, the relationships between countries, something that the Nuclear Man's existence would definitely affect.
    Because every time DC has turned a character evil so they can give a mantle to a new character, it's done WONDERS for that character's popularity. AM I RIGHT?

    And seriously, just look at my avatar. I may not give half a f**k about Firestorm, but no fan deserves to see a hero they appreciate and look up to TURN EVIL!

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by unclepulky View Post
    no fan deserves to see a hero they appreciate and look up to TURN EVIL!
    Hal Jordan? Jason Todd? Jean Grey?
    Last edited by SmokeMonster; 03-17-2017 at 08:26 PM.

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