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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeMonster View Post
    Hal Jordan? Jason Todd? Jean Grey?
    Hal Jordan did not become popular when he turned evil. Jean turning evil had nothing to do with passing on the mantle to someone else. And Jason had been already replaced as Robin before being revived as a villain

  2. #32
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeMonster View Post
    I've never picked up a Firestorm book, despite being interested in the character, because of subpar art. So, if it were up to me, I'd get someone like Jesus Saiz or Emanuela Lupacchino on art. Something clean and modern to offset a character I associate with being very dated and irrelevant. This is essential if you ask me.
    Have him change the world. This is a hero who can solve the world's clean water problem and other huge world issues, which could make for interesting conflicts and discussions between the two halves of Firestorm who perhaps have different beliefs about how to use this incredible power.
    Make the scope massive, while also being about a relationship at it's core, an endearing father/son relationship and all the themes that come with that, namely communication, which imaginably also mirror the books bigger themes, the relationships between countries, something that the Nuclear Man's existence would definitely affect.
    I agree with these things.

    As for making Ronnie and Jason evil to make room for Jax....I cant get behind that. The fanbase is so touchy they'd never roll with it and you'd be likely to alienate fans more than anything else. Even the people who never read Firestorm will be saying "They did what? Screw that then I'm not checking it out!" I say use all three, or forget about Jax and focus on Ronnie and Jason. I might say use Jax alone and split the difference just to make it easier, but again, whiny fans.....

    And if you want an evil Firestorm you have Deathstorm from Blackest Night, and that's a pretty great villain.
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  3. #33
    Incredible Member Nix Uotan's Avatar
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    I find it also kind of pointless to make the older ones evil as it's kind of for pointless shock. Ronnies been dead for ages and only came back during Brightest Day. That leaves Jason and I just... don't know about doing that. Just my opinion.
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  4. #34
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Given the current situation with PoC I think it would be intensely bad PR for DC to "evil-ize" Jason. they're struggling with their PoC characters right now, when Marvel is actually doing some pretty decent stuff with their's, and it would look far worse than it actually is. I mean, Jason doesnt have a ton of history or a large fanbase so by rights no one should really care outside of the ten fans he already has, but people who never cared about him or were barely aware of him would be up in arms over the black kid getting the short end once again. It'd be NuWally Round 2 and no one, including DC, wants to see that.

    As for Ronnie.....Im pretty sure they jumped the shark with him when they did that cancer story. But since he was the original, there's a segment of DC fandom who will never accept anyone else, so I think we're stuck with him.
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  5. #35
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    I mean, Jason doesnt have a ton of history or a large fanbase so by rights no one should really care outside of the ten fans he already has, but people who never cared about him or were barely aware of him would be up in arms over the black kid getting the short end once again. It'd be NuWally Round 2 and no one, including DC, wants to see that.
    But DC CAUSED that to happened.

    It's not Jason's fault he is black and DC acts like they can't do more than one black lead book. So yes he will get noticed especially after Batman Brave & Bold and the various toys with him.

    If done right New 52 could have had the series end with Jason naming himself Firehawk and Ronnie being Firestorm. You now have two guys to play with and be alternate skins in games.

    You free Ronnie to have solo adventures and be in a team and Jason do the same. You could even make their powers different.

    And I think Jason has more than 10 fans. Too bad like John Stewart and most black heroes at Dc-no employed cares to do anything with them beyond side kick fodder.

    And those folks would be right to be up in arms-since everyone from Wally to Cassandra Cain fans went off on DC. Until they get it right or Static shows up-they will get ripped for every mess with black characters that they do.

  6. #36
    Fantastic Member Kaijudo's Avatar
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    Use Firestorm as an anthology character...use Ronnie as the one constant. Stein can be there at the beginning, but after a while Ronnie discovers he can merge with anyone to be Firestorm. And the make-up of the character changes with each "partner" Ronnie is paired with...sometimes Ronnie is running the show, sometimes he's the floating head trying to dispense advice. Then, when that particular make-up of the character starts to grow stale, replace the second figure in the matrix with someone new. It's kind of a variation on the DIAL H FOR HERO idea, or maybe DOCTOR WHO to a degree.

    This is an opportunity to make sure Firestorm doesn't grow repetitive. It allows to introduce new characters and new situations dependent upon who is in the matrix with Ronnie now. If one lands that's super popular, keep that version around for a while until that popularity wanes. And you can always check back in on former members of the matrix; what if two inadvertently passed each other on the street and it created a new Firestorm-esque figure? Maybe a villainous type? Whatever the case, making Firestorm a rotating door of partners would keep it fresh and interesting.

  7. #37
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    But DC CAUSED that to happened.

    And those folks would be right to be up in arms-since everyone from Wally to Cassandra Cain fans went off on DC. Until they get it right or Static shows up-they will get ripped for every mess with black characters that they do.
    Absolutely, DC caused this problem and has no one to blame but themselves. Which doesnt change the fact that no one, including them, wants another round of NuWally hate. They screwed up, and its on them to fix it. Writing Jason off doesnt seem like a good step in the direction of "fixing it" but he's also not the most popular Firestorm either, so while I have no sympathy for DC's situation (damn fools did it to themselves) I can appreciate the problem of figuring out what to do with all the excess Firestorm partners.

    I'm with you on the need for DC to step up their game and enter the 21st century in terms of representation. It's the only reason I think Jason is even included in the discussion, honestly. His tenure as Firestorm was a blip on the radar compared to Ronnie's, and Jason struggled from the start to find a fanbase, since everyone was up in arms over Ronnie (who hadn't seen regular use in a decade if not more) dying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaijudo View Post
    Use Firestorm as an anthology character...use Ronnie as the one constant. Stein can be there at the beginning, but after a while Ronnie discovers he can merge with anyone to be Firestorm. And the make-up of the character changes with each "partner" Ronnie is paired with...sometimes Ronnie is running the show, sometimes he's the floating head trying to dispense advice. Then, when that particular make-up of the character starts to grow stale, replace the second figure in the matrix with someone new. It's kind of a variation on the DIAL H FOR HERO idea, or maybe DOCTOR WHO to a degree.

    This is an opportunity to make sure Firestorm doesn't grow repetitive. It allows to introduce new characters and new situations dependent upon who is in the matrix with Ronnie now. If one lands that's super popular, keep that version around for a while until that popularity wanes. And you can always check back in on former members of the matrix; what if two inadvertently passed each other on the street and it created a new Firestorm-esque figure? Maybe a villainous type? Whatever the case, making Firestorm a rotating door of partners would keep it fresh and interesting.
    They did actually try this for a little while with Jason, and I think the results were.....interesting. I remember one guy Jason fused with was one some sort of drug (prescription as I recall) and it really messed with Jason's head and his ability to function as Firestorm. I thought that was a fun idea and I liked seeing different people pulled into the Matrix.

    Whether that's something that could be sustained....I dunno. It didnt seem to go over too well at the time, but the community is different now, expectations and opinions of Firestorm are different now (people aren't as upset that Ronnie died, for one thing) and with the right creative team, maybe it could work?
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  8. #38
    Mighty Member FishyZombie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaijudo View Post
    Use Firestorm as an anthology character...use Ronnie as the one constant. Stein can be there at the beginning, but after a while Ronnie discovers he can merge with anyone to be Firestorm. And the make-up of the character changes with each "partner" Ronnie is paired with...sometimes Ronnie is running the show, sometimes he's the floating head trying to dispense advice. Then, when that particular make-up of the character starts to grow stale, replace the second figure in the matrix with someone new. It's kind of a variation on the DIAL H FOR HERO idea, or maybe DOCTOR WHO to a degree.

    This is an opportunity to make sure Firestorm doesn't grow repetitive. It allows to introduce new characters and new situations dependent upon who is in the matrix with Ronnie now. If one lands that's super popular, keep that version around for a while until that popularity wanes. And you can always check back in on former members of the matrix; what if two inadvertently passed each other on the street and it created a new Firestorm-esque figure? Maybe a villainous type? Whatever the case, making Firestorm a rotating door of partners would keep it fresh and interesting.
    since Stein is the only one consistantly getting exposure, I don't think ditching him is the smartest way to go about it.

  9. #39
    Astonishing Member Cyberpunk Ronin's Avatar
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    Ugh just get rid of Jason altogether please. One of the most uninteresting characters ever created. Let's just go back to basics: Ronnie and Stein.

    -I'd like it if Ronnie was more like he was on The Flash. I enjoyed the mature version quite a bit. Leave the dumb jock routine back in high school.

    -Caitlin should be his former fiancée in the comics. In my opinion, it would give their rivalry a lot more depth. Let's be honest does anyone know why they're enemies anyway?
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  10. #40
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    I actually did a redesign/creation for Jason a while back. I took his original Jamal Igle design, lost the baggy sleeves, resigned the Firestorm logo into a new concept, recolored his scheme to white and blue (such as blue flames coming from atop of his head to give Jason Visual difference from Ronnie) and renamed him ION the Atomic Man, since D.C. Was no longer using the name ION no more for Green Lantern. Figured, well, wouldn't be the first time an Inuniverse name was reused for a different franchise.

    New name, new book equals new Franchise equals opportunity for growth. Means a chance for a writer to come in and create NEW, not limited to Rehashing or recreating/rebirthing Firestorm concepts to appease the old crowd.

    Bring back Gehenna, but obviously gonna have to update/alter her origin in this new Rebirth Universe.

    All in all, since traditional Firestorm fans, including Conway, who went out his way to shaft Jason don't want Jason as Firestorm, this gives us JasonFirestorm fans our cake and lets us eat it too. Cause after that Legends mini, I was done with Firestorm. That broke the camels back for me.

    I will scan my drawings eventually and post a link.
    Last edited by Blanks; 03-20-2017 at 03:54 AM.

  11. #41
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blanks View Post
    I actually did a redesign/creation for Jason a while back. I took his original Jamal Igle design, lost the baggy sleeves, resigned the Firestorm logo into a new concept, recolored his scheme to white and blue (such as blue flames coming from atop of his head to give Jason Visual difference from Ronnie) and renamed him ION the Atomic Man, since D.C. Was no longer using the name ION no more for Green Lantern. Figured, well, wouldn't be the first time an Inuniverse name was reused for a different franchise.

    New name, new book equals new Franchise equals opportunity for growth. Means a chance for a writer to come in and create NEW, not limited to Rehashing or recreating/rebirthing Firestorm concepts to appease the old crowd.

    Bring back Gehenna, but obviously gonna have to update/alter her origin in this new Rebirth Universe.

    All in all, since traditional Firestorm fans, including Conway, who went out his way to shaft Jason don't want Jason as Firestorm, this gives us JasonFirestorm fans our cake and lets us eat it too. Cause after that Legends mini, I was done with Firestorm. That broke the camels back for me.

    I will scan my drawings eventually and post a link.
    I'd be interested in seeing the redesign.

    And maybe this is the best option. Instead of trying to fit Jason into the Firestorm box, maybe the better course of action is to spin him into something new. I was sort of leaning towards this when I was thinking of Jason fusing with Lorraine to create Firehawk, but maybe moving Jason even further out of Firestorm's orbit is the better choice?
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  12. #42
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    Consider it done! I'll have to find which sketch book I left it in......

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Was it good enough to serve as a Rebirth?

    I didnt read it (not for that cover price). I only heard about a couple things; basically Jason is tech support now or something, and Firestorm is back to Ronnie and Stein. Other than that I dont know what went down.
    5 days late, but to answer this, "eh." It depends on who you'd ask.

    For me, it started out cool enough, but when it became apparent that they were de-powering Jason and putting Stein and Ronnie back together, it came off as rather insulting to Jason's character, and to the fans who enjoy him as Firestorm. That he was already taking backseat to Ronnie while he was still Firestorm was frustrating enough in that regard, but that maneuver made it hard to feel out which one was worse. The comic also plays Ronnie being de-powered, allegedly permanently according to Stein, which is another kick in the teeth, as a good thing, or at least not the end of the world, when for a Superhero/Protagonist kid with powers, losing them pretty much is the end of the world (and definitely so for anyone who follows and/or identifies with the character). Also, the catalyst for the need to remove the Matrix from Jason was a jealous smart girl rival chick that Jason didn't even know he had drugging him on multiple occasions, and not really anything to do with Jason's control of the Matrix itself, combined with Jason being characterized a lot more "wimpy" in that mini, for lack of a better term, was just throwing salt on the wound.

    That having been said, if you enjoy the classic Ronnie and Stein Firestorm, and/or if you didn't/don't care for Jason, you'd probably like the mini-series.

    Quote Originally Posted by JLH View Post
    That was the first I enjoyed Firestorm in YEARS. IMO it really salvaged the character after what was generally a pretty horrible New 52 series, too. I much prefer the Stein/Ronnie combo but I'm glad Jason wasn't completely discarded.
    Honestly, I completely disagree on this. I loved the New 52 Firestorm, up until the point that Jason began back-seating to Ronnie 24/7 at least. Really, that series was awesome, in both concept and execution, and it had both Ronnie and Jason strongly down pat as similar yet dichotomous individuals. I also loved how Jason was made a black youth who was outspoken and generally sure of himself, while still being falable, and though Ronnie was brash and came off as simpleminded, was shown as having the same potential for thoughtfulness and introspection as Jason, even despite himself and his emotions. They made a really good pair in that book, both in spite of and because of their adversarial relationship.

    Also, for the reasons I mentioned above, for all intents and purposes, that mini did completely discard Jason, if not literally, than pretty much in every meaningful way that matters to his character. It certainly demoted him from co-protagonist just another in Ronnie's secondary character's cast. I can't say that I appreciated that. Especially not coming after the early New 52 run.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I'd be interested in seeing the redesign.

    And maybe this is the best option. Instead of trying to fit Jason into the Firestorm box, maybe the better course of action is to spin him into something new. I was sort of leaning towards this when I was thinking of Jason fusing with Lorraine to create Firehawk, but maybe moving Jason even further out of Firestorm's orbit is the better choice?
    It could work, but they'd need to be seriously committed to it. No half acts or take backs at the least sign of dissension. If not, the only thing that it would result in is folks calling him "Not!Firestorm" or some other derogatory derivative before they'd cave and scrap him or limbo him.
    Last edited by J. D. Guy; 03-20-2017 at 10:10 PM.

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod G View Post
    No need.

    Firestorm already got a Rebirth in the pages of the Legends of Tomorrow mini-series.
    Quoted for Truth. All you need to do now is use him.

    EDIT: I wouldn't mind Jason being restored as an equal to Ronnie, though; just leave Prof. Stein as the custodian of the Firestorm matrix, with Ronnie or Jason both being able to merge with him.
    Last edited by Dataweaver; 03-20-2017 at 10:07 PM.
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  15. #45
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. D. Guy View Post
    5 days late, but to answer this, "eh." It depends on who you'd ask.

    For me, it started out cool enough, but when it became apparent that they were de-powering Jason and putting Stein and Ronnie back together, it came off as rather insulting to Jason's character, and to the fans who enjoy him as Firestorm. That he was already taking backseat to Ronnie while he was still Firestorm was frustrating enough in that regard, but that maneuver made it hard to feel out which one was worse. The comic also plays Ronnie being de-powered, allegedly permanently according to Stein, which is another kick in the teeth, as a good thing, or at least not the end of the world, when for a Superhero/Protagonist kid with powers, losing them pretty much is the end of the world (and definitely so for anyone who follows and/or identifies with the character). Also, the catalyst for the need to remove the Matrix from Jason was a jealous smart girl rival chick that Jason didn't even know he had drugging him on multiple occasions, and not really anything to do with Jason's control of the Matrix itself, combined with Jason being characterized a lot more "wimpy" in that mini, for lack of a better term, was just throwing salt on the wound.

    That having been said, if you enjoy the classic Ronnie and Stein Firestorm, and/or if you didn't/don't care for Jason, you'd probably like the mini-series.
    Wow. I was happy finally getting Ronnie and Stein back together as Firestorm, but I expected better from Conway then how this sounds.

    Hopefully a future Firestorm Rebirth can do him better justice and without having to discard Ronnie or Stein together.

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