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  1. #1
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    Default Is Bruce to be blamed for Jason's actions ?

    I mean when it comes to the relationship between the two of them it's more strained. However, I also question this had Bruce never search out Jason, would he be a better person for it or not ?

  2. #2
    Long Live The Phantom Aioros22's Avatar
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    Likely a question for the Appreciation thread but no. I despise either of them being the martyr of the other fanbase.

    That said I`m questioning your choice of words because it sounds extremely dated. Why "blame"? Jason`s relationship with Bruce has been strained over the years but that isn`t all the relationship has been. They should both be held accountable for all the good and bad, like 3-dimensiona characters do. Since the reboot the relationship has been tested and matured and now is close and civil.

    That`s anyone`s guess. The general consensous under writers is that he likely wouldn`t have been turned out "better" due to his circumstances of survival. That said under both Collins and Loedbell, despite his circumstances the point is made that Jason doesn`t really enjoy stealing or whatnot and under both origins he has stopped robberies. But realistically, without someone coming over and giving him a hand, like a Batman, a Talia or a Leslie, it`s hard to see it.
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  3. #3
    Astonishing Member Dispenser Of Truth's Avatar
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    Narratively? No. In the universe of DC, adopting a kid to fight crime is a legitimate means of helping them, and Jason ended up having issues so deeply embedded that Batman couldn't save him. If it was Batman's fault, then Batman's responsible for dozens if not hundreds of deaths, so you kind of can't allow that.

    Logically? Of course he is, he saw an angry teenage petty thief living on the streets and figured being a superhero would be more helpful than therapy. That's objectively horrifying. But it was with most of the other sidekicks too even if they turned out better, and again, if we start pulling at that thread then soon we're gonna start asking how he and Alfred clear all the guano out of the Batcave, and everything falls apart.
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    Technically Jason was just pretty harmless petty criminal before Bruce took him in, who only stole because he had to and didn't wanted to join Ma Guns gang. And flashpoint showed him being a Priest.

    Appart Bruce waited to long to do something when Jasons behaviour was getting problematic, in Green Arrow Annual #1 he was for example worried about Jasons behaviour but said that it wasn't an immediate problem.

    What Bruce did post UtRH was also not so great. First he went on vacation for a year instead of tracking Jason down and trying to reach out to him, and than there was this video message after Bruce "death" taht resulted in Jason going completly over the edge in BfC.

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Bruce isn't to blame. His rubbish parents are to blame Bruce isn't a social worker nor does he owe Jason anything. Sure he could have given him therapy and found him a nice stable home but he wouldn't have been out on the streets stealing to survive if not for his parents.

    Without Bruce he likely would end up in Jail or killed he was living on the streets after all.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Technically Jason was just pretty harmless petty criminal before Bruce took him in, who only stole because he had to and didn't wanted to join Ma Guns gang. And flashpoint showed him being a Priest.

    Appart Bruce waited to long to do something when Jasons behaviour was getting problematic, in Green Arrow Annual #1 he was for example worried about Jasons behaviour but said that it wasn't an immediate problem.

    What Bruce did post UtRH was also not so great. First he went on vacation for a year instead of tracking Jason down and trying to reach out to him, and than there was this video message after Bruce "death" taht resulted in Jason going completly over the edge in BfC.
    Does a writer have to make sense of every editorial mess? Maybe nobody had a story worth telling? Battle for the Cowl is universally hated for bad writing.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Bruce isn't to blame. His rubbish parents are to blame Bruce isn't a social worker nor does he owe Jason anything. Sure he could have given him therapy and found him a nice stable home but he wouldn't have been out on the streets stealing to survive if not for his parents.

    Without Bruce he likely would end up in Jail or killed he was living on the streets after all.
    He still ended up dead under Bruce's care. Seems like he didn't do the kid much good after all. And it's not like leaving him with his parents or making him Robin were the only options. He could have put him into foster care

  8. #8
    Astonishing Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    He still ended up dead under Bruce's care. Seems like he didn't do the kid much good after all. And it's not like leaving him with his parents or making him Robin were the only options. He could have put him into foster care
    So? If not for his parents failings he would never have ended up on the streets or in Bruce's care. They were the mitigating factor, the original root course. Their actions put in him in peril and on the streets for a guy in the batsuit with a fetish for putting kids in danger to find and recruit. Bruce doesn't owe him a thing. {any sane thinking person would have taken him to the police for stealing or to social services and ended the matter there but Bruce is quite any sane thinking person now is he]
    Last edited by dietrich; 03-18-2017 at 02:29 AM.

  9. #9
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    Yeah, Bruce is to be blamed. I like Jason cause him being a mistake of Batman is one of the qualities that saves Batman from becoming a Marry Sue. Batman needs mistakes.

    He would turn out plain wrong even if Batman didn't involve with him. He was a little thief street punk in bad naigborhood. There is not much future in that but Jason was too agrasif in his core, so full of anger. It's like training Anakin Skywalker... all the warnings are there that there is a big gigantic chance that this kid will turn out plain wrong but he was trained as an elite warrior anyway... So this is a big mistake, such a kid with ill nature shouldn't be tought such a skills so he won't be an efficient evil killer.
    Last edited by Batarang; 03-18-2017 at 03:01 AM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    So? If not for his parents failings he would never have ended up on the streets or in Bruce's care. They were the mitigating factor, the original root course. Their actions put in him in peril and on the streets for a guy in the batsuit with a fetish for putting kids in danger to find and recruit. Bruce doesn't owe him a thing. {any sane thinking person would have taken him to the police for stealing or to social services and ended the matter there but Bruce is quite any sane thinking person now is he]
    I never said Bruce was the only one to blame. Yeah the problem started with Jason's parents but Bruce made it worse. This isn't about what Jason is owed

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batarang View Post
    Yeah, Bruce is to be blamed. I like Jason cause him being a mistake of Batman is one of the qualities that saves Batman from becoming a Marry Sue. Batman needs mistakes.

    He would turn out plain wrong even if Batman didn't involve with him. He was a little thief street punk in bad naigborhood. There is not much future in that but Jason was too agrasif in his core, so full of anger. It's like training Anakin Skywalker... all the warnings are there that there is a big gigantic chance that this kid will turn out plain wrong but he was trained as an elite warrior anyway... So this is a big mistake, such a kid with ill nature shouldn't be tought such a skills so he won't be an efficient evil killer.
    Because clearly people never turn their lives around despite coming from poor backgrounds. Guess Damien is destined to be an assassin after all then.


    Jason didn't become aggressive until Bruce trained him and even the. He was no more aggressive than any other Bat
    Last edited by Agent Z; 03-18-2017 at 03:23 AM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batarang View Post
    He would turn out plain wrong even if Batman didn't involve with him. He was a little thief street punk in bad naigborhood. There is not much future in that but Jason was too agrasif in his core, so full of anger.
    In his origin story he was actually shown to be quite a nice kid. And Bruce and even Dick had also aggression problems (Bruce probably still has them).

    Her these scans show for example Dick (and not Jason) in his early days.






  13. #13
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    Ofcourse there are different takes, i must admit i haven't read the original story of Batman and Jason's first meeting or any Jason Todd Robin story except the one called Batman: The Cult and i thought he was such a Dick clone there. I haven't read but saw some Jason, Batman and Alfred Batcave moments pages in a documantery with Dennis O'Neil interview. i kind of watched parts of it in youtube so long ago, i don't remember its name and Jason was so aggressive there, full of anger, disrespectful so that's mostly my bases for Jason Robin. Other than that Dick was pretty much an Anakin case in All Star Batman too, destined to be a killer.

    And i'm ok with whatever they go with as long as Jason is a mistake and i don't say anyone from poor backgraund can't turn out to be a decent person... But i must add Jason doesn't have brains to be one lol he's all about rage and brutalty without a trace of intelegence so he will turn out wrong in my opinion. I want him to turn out wrong and be a mistake, i support this route wholeheartly even if they do something else. Anything goes as long as Jason turns out be a mistake.
    Last edited by Batarang; 03-18-2017 at 03:49 AM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batarang View Post
    Ofcourse there are different takes, i must admit i haven't read the original story of Batman and Jason's first meeting or any Jason Todd Robin story except the one called Batman: The Cult and i thought he was such a Dick clone there. I haven't read but saw some Jason, Batman and Alfred Batcave moments pages in a documantery with Dennis O'Neil interview. i kind of watched parts of it in youtube so long ago, i don't remember its name and Jason was so aggressive there, full of anger, disrespectful so that's mostly my bases for Jason Robin. Other than that Dick was pretty much an Anakin case in All Star Batman too, destined to be a killer.

    And i'm ok with whatever they go with as long as Jason is a mistake and i don't say anyone from poor backgraund can't turn out to be a decent person... But i must add Jason doesn't have brains to be one lol he's all about rage and brutalty without a trace of intelegence so he will turn out wrong in my opinion. I want him to turn out wrong and be a mistake, i support this route wholeheartly even if they do something else. Anything goes as long as Jason turns out be a mistake.
    Than yor basis is wrong. Jason is actually quite intelligent and probably as smart as Dick.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Than yor basis is wrong. Jason is actually quite intelligent and probably as smart as Dick.
    I don't know how they write him in his book, the red hood and the outlaws. I don't follow that cause i believe it doesn't worth the money but the Jason who was written by Dennis O'Neil doesn't act very smart in the pages which were shown in the documantery and that's my basis of Jason. I wish i knew the exact issue numbers or which trade those issues were collected but i don't. If i knew, i would get them, they looked pretty good. :/
    Last edited by Batarang; 03-18-2017 at 04:29 AM.

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