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  1. #196
    Clem Clementine - The Worst Poster Ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dispenser Of Truth View Post
    Jurgens seems to be writing this Superman a bit more in the Johns/Lobdell vein here, sadly. The snarling, the borderline-stupid impulsiveness, the note that "everyone knows Superman doesn't have a family" - maybe it's just to establish a contrast with Blue, but given the little digs at the New 52 guy from throughout the run, I do wonder if this is meant to paint a slightly less pretty picture than the other guy, even if it's clearly not going to the extent of villanizing him the way some were worried about.
    Quote Originally Posted by manofsteel1979 View Post
    Nah, I don't think he's that different from say, how Jurgens wrote Superdad and how he flew of the handle with Luthor when this current run started.
    I think that's more due to instances of poor writing.

    Tomasi said something about Rebirth Superman being more thoughtful and not not being as impulsive as New 52 Superman, even though that's not how either Jurgens or Tomasi wrote Rebirth Superman early on, including the Lois and Clark mini.

    New 52 Superman going for Mxy's throat appears to shock Jon a bit based on the expression he's making, while Rebirth Superman's aggressive behavior never appeared to shock Jon. Actually, while watching the confrontation between Superman and Luthor, he actually thought it was cool that the two of them were going to fight.

    When he saw Superman attacking Eradicator, he wanted to join in.

    There's also a contrast between Rebirth Superman and New 52 Superman in this crossover, even if it isn't that well done. Rebirth Superman grabs Fake Clark by the collar after Jon's disappearance, he realizes that Fake Clark had something to do with what happened to Jon, so he has a reason to be extremely angry the way he was at the apartment. Here, New 52 Superman is not really aware of what's going on, he's confused, and his response to grab Mxy by the throat and demand answers. He doesn't have a reason to be angry as Rebirth Superman was, but he is.
    First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice

  2. #197
    Psionic Superman stephens2177's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Sigh. Because loving his wife and son would mean he'd have to remember having a wife and son.

    I think you keep assuming we're saying different things when we are saying the same thing. Again, Red and Blue split. Red originally is like a carbon copy of Blue, remembering the same experiences/life that Blue does (aka Pre-FP Superman continuity). Then, something apart from the split happens to Red, turning him into Nuperman, presumably because of Manhattan, Oz, or whoever. So, IMO, Reborn is not just going to be about the two Supermen merging, but about Red recovering his memories of his Pre-Flashpoint life, in essence making Red back into that carbon copy of Blue.

    Superman, once merged back together, may ALSO remember some of his New 52 adventures as things that his Red side did while they were split apart, but not adding what RED did as Nuperman into the PAST (as in, them altering the timeline). I mean, last time they split apart, they still remembered that they were SPLIT APART. But, again, I guess we'll have to wait until Wednesday.

    We are saying almost the exact same thing,besides 1 thing.YOU keep writing like nuperman was some copy when he never was,he is the real thing,just as much as superdad.aslomg as you keep showing your dislike for nuperman through lil comments like that you won't be on the exact same page with me.

    I see both as superman,I don't care how good.or bad the stories were,superman has had terrible.writing off and on his whole published history,so both nuperman and superdad are Superman to me,easy as that.

    Oh and nuperman lived a totally new life in the new 52 timeline,that has to be accounted for also,not just the last 10 years where they lived separate lives on the same earth.
    #BRINGBACKKON

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    -kon was never supermans son,he was always humans trying to recreate the Earth's greatest hero.

    -So much happier now that I don't visit Bleeding Cool

    -what do you give a half kryptonian clone to be super,TACTILE TELEKINESIS of course

  3. #198
    Veteran Member FishyZombie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephens2177 View Post
    We are saying almost the exact same thing,besides 1 thing.YOU keep writing like nuperman was some copy when he never was,he is the real thing,just as much as superdad.aslomg as you keep showing your dislike for nuperman through lil comments like that you won't be on the exact same page with me.

    I see both as superman,I don't care how good.or bad the stories were,superman has had terrible.writing off and on his whole published history,so both nuperman and superdad are Superman to me,easy as that.

    Oh and nuperman lived a totally new life in the new 52 timeline,that has to be accounted for also,not just the last 10 years where they lived separate lives on the same earth.
    shhhhhh, we don't want him to know the irony that since they are technically the same guy, then whenever he insults Nuperman, he's also insulting Superdad.
    there is no "i" in denial

  4. #199
    Senior Member SuperCrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Sigh. Because loving his wife and son would mean he'd have to remember having a wife and son
    Not necessarily. Let's say I had a girlfriend who was very important to me, but due to some circumstances I don't blame her for, she dumped me and wound up marrying someone else or dating other people or something. Then, I find out that we've both been split in two and the other me and her decided to marry and have a child. If I were reunited with the other half of myself, I think the half that loved and lost would be pleased with the situation- maybe not that I had to merge and couldn't lead an independent life, but being married to the woman I'd always loved, and having a child who's DNA was half mine and half her's, and me having my own memories plus the missing half of me's memories of the last decade or whatever. I'd still love the woman and I'd still love the kid, you know?

    Granted, Superman was last dating Wonder Woman, but she's moved on, and he always had a thing for Lois. Plus, the SuperDad half of him definitely would have a thing for Lois. I think it all would work out. Actually, the person it might be unfair to is new52 Lois, if anyone, but if we're to believe Mxy's representations, the universe literally needs this couple to be together and destines them to be together in every timeline, so combined with her mixing with her other self who definitely loves Clark, she'd probably love him, too. The implication of the story so far is definitely that she would have loved him eventually anyway- that she basically always will no matter what the timeline or medium.

    So, I guess that just leaves me feeling bad for Jonathan Carroll. Where the heck is he anyway? Maybe he could date.... um, hmmmm. Okay, so Lucy is probably going to be Ron Troupe's wife if they restore the timeline properly, and after that, if they ignored Ron (Poor Ron, the man is holding him down! What's with the racism DC? ), Jimmy Olson would have dibs, so... Wonder Woman is probably dating Col. Trevor.... Is Cat Grant single?
    SuperJon Sucks

  5. #200
    Senior Member SuperCrab's Avatar
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    Just don't have New52 Superman come back for like 1.1 issues only to kick New52 Superman fans in the balls yet again by not even letting him merge with SuperDad and by not having SuperDad acquire some of his memories and a few personality traits. Bringing him back just to kill him off again immediately is gratuitous. It'd make it seem like they delight in reviving him just to kill him again and again. He has fans, and they are also fans of the Superman character and potentially the books you are editing and writing. How do they think that makes us feel when our favorite character is treated like that? I hope they thought this through and will give New52 Superman some life as part of Reborn Superman or something, at least, if they aren't going to keep him around as a separate character.

    The Reborn Superman may be mostly SuperDad and married Lois with Jonathan as his son, but he should remember living New52 Superman's life also, in the first person. He can have lived both lives. Or they could do a thing where he has a new life that is a combination of all of their lives- i.e. every comic book counts as is remembered, it's just that some things were going on in the background a little differently than the comics themselves. Like, when New52 Superman became Superdoom? Maybe Lois and Jon were at home really worried about the whole situation. When Superman journeyed into Kandor to fix the ecological mess with The Atom? Maybe he was wearing Kryptonian body armor. You know, that sort of thing.

    DC Comics is making a big deal in their Rebirth storyline of someone "stealing" 10 years of the characters' lives. Well, don't steal 10 years (comic book time) from New52 Superman's life and adventurers, that were five years out of our lives, away from Superman and away from us. Make those adventures a real part of Superman's history going forward- even if that Superman isn't the New52 Superman exactly.
    Last edited by SuperCrab; 03-17-2017 at 09:35 PM.
    SuperJon Sucks

  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedWhiteAndBlueSupes View Post
    This is my opinion as well. I think though, that the New 52 would still have "happened". I mean Rucka made a point of pointing out Diana as the God of War, so it still in Canon at least now anyway. And how can Flash be fighting Godspeed, (who he met in New 52 era) if it never happened. It would just be much simpler to say. COIE===Zero Hour======IC====New 52==Rebirth. Now you can at least follow the Post Crisis timeline in a vague outline. Basically like you've said before a "house of M" or "Heroes Reborn" or like early on in the Kurt Busiek Avengers where everyone gets supplanted in the middle ages and slowly remember who they are, really not that hard to comprehend.
    One possibility is that, in the long run, it will be viewed as an era when they lost their memories of their careers and were deaged. You have a few blips like Steve Trevor not being an old man.

    As a sidebar, if the red trunks get retconned out, who wants to bet we'll see Mxy run off with them?

    "Superman may think he won. But that doesn't mean I didn't get away with a trophy of my own, stolen from his history..."

    Cue reveal of Mxy posing in front of a mirror wearing the red shorts.

  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephens2177 View Post
    We are saying almost the exact same thing,besides 1 thing.YOU keep writing like nuperman was some copy when he never was,he is the real thing,just as much as superdad.aslomg as you keep showing your dislike for nuperman through lil comments like that you won't be on the exact same page with me.

    I see both as superman,I don't care how good.or bad the stories were,superman has had terrible.writing off and on his whole published history,so both nuperman and superdad are Superman to me,easy as that.

    Oh and nuperman lived a totally new life in the new 52 timeline,that has to be accounted for also,not just the last 10 years where they lived separate lives on the same earth.
    When I say Nuperman was a "copy," I mean "part of the original who split off from the original." And not only that, but by the working theory, Nuperman is who Superman Red turned into upon Flashpoint. So, yes, Nuperman is definitely part of the original, but he's also a part that's been altered by an outside force. But, Nuperman will also probably remember his Pre-FP life by the end of this arc. Again, we're saying the same thing here.

    And I think they SHOULD have Superman, post-Reborn, remember his New 52 adventures as "the adventures of his Red side" while also remembering himself raising Jon alongside Lois in Hamilton. In other words, have him remember the split just like the last time Superman split into Red and Blue. I think that would be a good way to keep pretty much EVERYTHING in canon. The only thing that would likely be sacrificed is Morrison's origin in favor of one of the Pre-Flashpoint origins, probably Secret Origin because of Johns's role in this arc and in Rebirth in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by FishyZombie View Post
    shhhhhh, we don't want him to know the irony that since they are technically the same guy, then whenever he insults Nuperman, he's also insulting Superdad.
    When I criticize Nuperman, I'm criticizing the Superman who had forgotten his entire life and whose status quo was almost nothing like what had been true of Superman comics for almost 20 years before the New 52.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 03-17-2017 at 10:58 PM.
    Favorite Mythologies: Green Lantern, Batman (pre-Flashpoint), Spider-Man, The Fantastic Four, the Justice League/JLA (pre-Flashpoint)

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  8. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperCrab View Post
    Not necessarily. Let's say I had a girlfriend who was very important to me, but due to some circumstances I don't blame her for, she dumped me and wound up marrying someone else or dating other people or something. Then, I find out that we've both been split in two and the other me and her decided to marry and have a child. If I were reunited with the other half of myself, I think the half that loved and lost would be pleased with the situation- maybe not that I had to merge and couldn't lead an independent life, but being married to the woman I'd always loved, and having a child who's DNA was half mine and half her's, and me having my own memories plus the missing half of me's memories of the last decade or whatever. I'd still love the woman and I'd still love the kid, you know?
    I mean, that is just probably be the most convoluted and ridiculous thing that DC could do. To have Superman with a child, but not remember having that child is just...yeah. Anyway, you know this is not gonna happen, right? We've already seen Zircher's art with Clark and Lois post-Reborn and Clark is literally wearing a wedding ring. And the Kubert cover for Action Comics has their literal wedding scene pulled from the 1996 Wedding Album issue. So, he not only remembers being married to Lois, but also remembers exactly how they got married.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 03-18-2017 at 07:52 AM.
    Favorite Mythologies: Green Lantern, Batman (pre-Flashpoint), Spider-Man, The Fantastic Four, the Justice League/JLA (pre-Flashpoint)

    DC Pulls - Action Comics; Batman; Hal Jordan & the GLC; Superman; Wonder Woman

    Marvel Pulls - Captain America: Steve Rogers; The Mighty Thor

    Non-Big Two Pulls - Saga; Archie

  9. #204
    Veteran Member FishyZombie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post

    When I criticize Nuperman, I'm criticizing the Superman who had forgotten his entire life and whose status quo was almost nothing like what had been true of Superman comic for almost 20 years before the New 52.
    I didn't like the status quo of N52 Superman and all the regression it took to get there, I've been vocal about that and that I much prefer Rebirth. That being said, I think you can dislike the status quo of the new 52, while still liking the version of the character himself. That's how it was for me anyway, the one thing I actually liked about new 52 Superman comics was Superbro himself, though I am glad that the PC Superman is back. Not saying you have to, I was half joking earlier about how insulting one, is insulting the other.
    Last edited by FishyZombie; 03-18-2017 at 12:06 AM.
    there is no "i" in denial

  10. #205
    Super Member GSman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    I think that MIGHT be a reference to Superman's origins going back to Pre-FP, as in reverting back to Johns's Secret Origin.
    But if that's the case than this merger will probably result in other people getting their memories changed not just Lana, so it might rewrite some history where people will only remember there being one Superman and that Superman is the merged Superdad and Nuperman.
    Last edited by GSman; 03-18-2017 at 12:36 AM.

  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSman View Post
    But if that's the case than this merger will probably result in other people getting their memories changed not just Lana.
    Which is one reason I think the split will remain part of the continuity.

    15 years ago, there was Superman.

    10 years ago, split into Red and Blue, got married, Jon was born.

    5 years ago, everyone was made to forget about Superman. But Red was still out there. He "debuted" for the first time.

    Now, everyone remembers Superman and they're aware someone made them forget.

    This is a hazy timeline. Not exactly the true pre-FP one but one I could see working as an approximation for Rebirth.

    Maybe on top of that, Superman is aware that Krypton has changed a few times. In one version, the artist guild triumphed and influenced all of culture, including the Science Council (pre-Crisis). In another, the Science Guild dominated (Byrne). Then the Warrior guild dominated (Birthright). Then the guilds found a balance. Then the Labor Guild dominated. He could just be aware that Krypton is a target for many time travelers and sometimes changes; he is typically insulated from these changes because he wasn't raised on Krypton and Krypton still blew up in every revision. A consequence of this could be that he's aware Supergirl has rebooted a few times.

  12. #207
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperCrab View Post
    Not necessarily. Let's say I had a girlfriend who was very important to me, but due to some circumstances I don't blame her for, she dumped me and wound up marrying someone else or dating other people or something. Then, I find out that we've both been split in two and the other me and her decided to marry and have a child. If I were reunited with the other half of myself, I think the half that loved and lost would be pleased with the situation- maybe not that I had to merge and couldn't lead an independent life, but being married to the woman I'd always loved, and having a child who's DNA was half mine and half her's, and me having my own memories plus the missing half of me's memories of the last decade or whatever. I'd still love the woman and I'd still love the kid, you know?

    Granted, Superman was last dating Wonder Woman, but she's moved on, and he always had a thing for Lois. Plus, the SuperDad half of him definitely would have a thing for Lois. I think it all would work out. Actually, the person it might be unfair to is new52 Lois, if anyone, but if we're to believe Mxy's representations, the universe literally needs this couple to be together and destines them to be together in every timeline, so combined with her mixing with her other self who definitely loves Clark, she'd probably love him, too. The implication of the story so far is definitely that she would have loved him eventually anyway- that she basically always will no matter what the timeline or medium.

    So, I guess that just leaves me feeling bad for Jonathan Carroll. Where the heck is he anyway? Maybe he could date.... um, hmmmm. Okay, so Lucy is probably going to be Ron Troupe's wife if they restore the timeline properly, and after that, if they ignored Ron (Poor Ron, the man is holding him down! What's with the racism DC? ), Jimmy Olson would have dibs, so... Wonder Woman is probably dating Col. Trevor.... Is Cat Grant single?
    My working theory is no one cares about Jon Carrol. Even Jon Carrol himself.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
    SUPERMAN is the greatest fictional character ever created.

  13. #208

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    Quote Originally Posted by manofsteel1979 View Post
    My working theory is no one cares about Jon Carrol. Even Jon Carrol himself.
    The truth is that Jon Carrol spoilers:
    is Mr. Oz and he's messing with Superman's life out of jealousy.
    end of spoilers

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSman View Post
    But if that's the case than this merger will probably result in other people getting their memories changed not just Lana, so it might rewrite some history where people will only remember there being one Superman and that Superman is the merged Superdad and Nuperman.
    This is why everything's hanging on that Wonder Woman annual, we know that new origin for the Trinity is what Diana and Bruce will recollect, where as Supes might be wanting to tell them something different in the next issue of Trinity...that this too is a memory edit from whatever forces have course corrected his own history

  15. #210
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Double post... Nothing to see here...
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
    SUPERMAN is the greatest fictional character ever created.

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