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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeWithoutFear View Post
    There is nothing automatically wrong with what you just said. However, you're leaving out a few important factors...

    1. Increasing diversity doesn't require *taking* something from someone else. They didn't have to take those beloved characters away, unless they wanted to make people angry in the process. Which has nothing to do with story telling, and a lot to do with getting some free advertising. So, that's strike 1 in terms of shaking trust in Marvel's integrity with these changes.

    2. An updated reflection of society is good. But straight, white, males still belong in this society, right? So they shouldn't be treated like their presence, or unmitigated starring role, is somehow a negative. (Could you imagine if Clint went around with everyone calling him "the better" Hawkeye? Or if Spider-Woman gave a major press conference only to find that her fly was down a la Parker? Or is Sam Wilson was revealed as a Hydra agent this whole time?). Plus, if Marvel was just trying to keep up with demographics, they would actually have to do some rebalancing in the opposite direction if you talk about strictly who is *starring* in the books. (Source) That's strike 2.

    3. If you can't think of any counter-examples, then it probably is more than just the random creativity of writers trying to make good stories, don't you think? Unless Marvel has only employed writers who want to tell one kind of story. Either way, that's strike 3.

    ~~~~

    So, it's not to say that the things you're voicing desire for are inherently wrong. They aren't. But when you step back and try to look at it all more scientifically, based on data and social psychology, it comes off very..... suspect. And so it stings all the more when a fan of someone like Lee can't stick around for 6 months in a starring role. It has nothing to do with just wanting to see a straight, white, male character.... Eddie Brock is all those things. But Marvel's willingness to be rigid about other characters, and completely fickle with one like Lee is very frustrating.

    I hope you can understand that. And if not, hey, that's fine. We can agree to disagree - no problem.
    We'll have to agree to disagree. Which is fine, of course.

    One thing, though. I can't believe this stuff actually bothers anyone and sees it as denigrating white male heroes:

    "Could you imagine if Clint went around with everyone calling him "the better" Hawkeye? Or if Spider-Woman gave a major press conference only to find that her fly was down a la Parker? Or is Sam Wilson was revealed as a Hydra agent this whole time?"


    Kate Bishop is a cocky kid. Just like Clint has always been brash and cocky. Her claiming to be the better Hawkeye is absolutely in character for her and it's suitable that an upstart going by the same handle would show the same arrogance that he always has.

    Peter forgetting to zip up his fly is a simple, humanizing goof that pretty much anyone can relate to. It's not as thought it was an unendurable public humiliation. More like an "Oh, oops." moment. It's the kind of moment that wouldn't work as well with Jessica as she hasn't been defined in quite the same fallible, every-person way as Peter always has been.

    And having Steve be revealed as a Hydra agent has so much more impact than having Sam fill that role just because Steve is the #1 most trusted person in the MU. Having him working for Hydra is the biggest deal imaginable. That's why the story works. If it were Sam, it wouldn't. You couldn't have Secret Empire with Sam as a Hydra agent. It only makes sense with Steve.

    White males do just fine at Marvel. All this consternation about their treatment seems needless.
    Last edited by Prof. Warren; 03-20-2017 at 08:59 PM.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    We'll have to agree to disagree. Which is fine, of course.

    One thing, though. I can't believe this stuff actually bothers anyone and sees it as denigrating white male heroes:

    "Could you imagine if Clint went around with everyone calling him "the better" Hawkeye? Or if Spider-Woman gave a major press conference only to find that her fly was down a la Parker? Or is Sam Wilson was revealed as a Hydra agent this whole time?"


    Kate Bishop is a cocky kid. Just like Clint has always been brash and cocky. Her claiming to be the better Hawkeye is absolutely in character for her and it's suitable that an upstart going by the same handle would show the same arrogance that he always has.

    Peter forgetting to zip up his fly is a simple, humanizing goof that pretty much anyone can relate to. It's not as thought it was an unendurable public humiliation. More like an "Oh, oops." moment. It's the kind of moment that wouldn't work as well with Jessica as she hasn't been defined in quite the same fallible, every-person way as Peter always has been.

    And having Steve be revealed as a Hydra agent has so much more impact than having Sam fill that role just because Steve is the #1 most trusted person in the MU. Having him working for Hydra is the biggest deal imaginable. That's why the story works. If it were Sam, it wouldn't. You couldn't have Secret Empire with Sam as a Hydra agent. It only makes sense with Steve.

    White males do just fine at Marvel. All this consternation about their treatment seems needless.
    this was a thing at one point too. but it wasn't seen as an agenda back then, it was a "trend"...thunderstrike, us agent, scarlet spider, teen tony, war machine, steel, superboy, azrael batman, etc

    usagentthunderstrikewarmachine.jpg
    Last edited by boots; 03-20-2017 at 09:47 PM.
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    this was a thing at one point too. but it wasn't seen as an agenda back then, it was a "trend"...thunderstrike, us agent, scarlet spider, teen tony, war machine, steel, superboy, azrael batman, etc

    usagentthunderstrikewarmachine.jpg
    Yep. I think from time to time the classic heroes need a break. It's a cyclical thing. It's a cool change of pace to see another character assume an iconic mantle and then it's exciting, once some time passes, to see the classic hero return. It's part of the mythology of comics. But as you say, when white dudes were taking on the legacy of other white dudes, it was a cool "trend". When it's women and minorities, it's regarded as an "agenda".

    Either way, the good news is that in both cases, the classics always come back.

  4. #19
    Incredible Member JoeWithoutFear's Avatar
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    But you two are forgetting, in most of those cases... Thunderstrike, War Machine, USAgent, Azrael, Scarlet Spider, Steel, Superboy, etc., they were new characters that did not replace the old ones. Scarlet Spider eventually took over as *the* Spider-Man but it didn't last long, and even though I was a huge Scarlet Spider fan, I know a lot of us were not happy about him trying to be Spider-Man. It felt like it made the Scarlet Spider sound like a downgrade by contrast. But, I'm sure people disagreed there. That's just how me and my friends felt.

    As for what does or does not fit the character, I feel like you're somewhat making my point for me. These days, the straight white males in Marvel comics need to either be evil (too many to list), screw-ups (Clint, Iron Fist, Solo (which was not his character btw), Deadpool, Ant-Man, etc), or broken in some way ("unworthy" Thor, Moon Knight is insane, Logan is now old, Colossus got all fat and depressed, Nova has some weird death thing going on, etc.). On the other hand, women and minorities come in two flavors: unmitigated bad-ass who is right even when they're wrong (too many to list), and happy-go-lucky quirky spunk-stravaganza who never fails because of their hilarious upbeat attitude! (Squirrel Girl, Ms. Marvel, Hellcat, etc.) The second group is almost entirely female, and, all females apparently can't stop taking selfies no matter how mundane or dangerous the moment *eye roll*.

    There are of course exceptions, but, problem is, there are too few in my opinion. Daredevil is a straight white male who is capable and not evil and not a screw up. However, it's possible that Marvel is also still being PC there because Matt is blind and they don't want to be seen as ableist. *shrug* I am definitely open to hearing more exceptions. But, this stuff is subjective so we might simply disagree in our assessments. For instance, you said Cap being evil actually fits his characters because of ........ how extremely not evil he's always been. I mean, I get it, it's a contrast thing. But also .......... it's insane..... which is why so many people freaked about it.

    But maybe we're getting lost splitting hairs here. I think what I'm trying to say is that my guess is Marvel WOULDN'T make someone like Sam an evil Hydra agent, not because they don't think it would make a good story, but because they feel that's not something they could do w/ a female or minority character. And not only is that putting political correctness above storytelling, but it's actually rather bigoted in a certain way. But again, I'm open to more perspectives and information on this. Even if it doesn't change my mind completely, I'd appreciate being able to refine my point of view as accurately as possible. I hope we all feel that way in this talk, which I think is going well. No ad hominems! Go us! ^_^
    Last edited by JoeWithoutFear; 03-20-2017 at 11:47 PM.
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  5. #20
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeWithoutFear View Post
    But you two are forgetting, in most of those cases... Thunderstrike, War Machine, USAgent, Azrael, Scarlet Spider, Steel, Superboy, etc., they were new characters that did not replace the old ones.
    pretty sure that with the exception of steel and superboy, pretty much all those characters did replace the originals for varying lengths of time. in fact, you could even argue that both superboy and steel replaced clark kent for a bit.
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  6. #21
    Incredible Member JoeWithoutFear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    pretty sure that with the exception of steel and superboy, pretty much all those characters did replace the originals for varying lengths of time. in fact, you could even argue that both superboy and steel replaced clark kent for a bit.
    Sorry, I guess I wasn't being clear. Rhodes didn't become "Iron Man," he became War Machine, etc. Where as the recent round of changes, X-23 *became* Wolverine, etc.
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  7. #22
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeWithoutFear View Post
    Sorry, I guess I wasn't being clear. Rhodes didn't become "Iron Man," he became War Machine, etc. Where as the recent round of changes, X-23 *became* Wolverine, etc.
    well, by that logic riri is iron heart not iron man.

    but even then, rhodey was iron man for a while ( i think he was called "the all new iron man"). eric masterson was thor. even john walker was captain america. they all replaced the original guys.

    they assumed their separate identities later on. who knows where the current crop of legacy characters will end up?
    Last edited by boots; 03-21-2017 at 01:24 AM.
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeWithoutFear View Post
    As for what does or does not fit the character, I feel like you're somewhat making my point for me. These days, the straight white males in Marvel comics need to either be evil (too many to list), screw-ups (Clint, Iron Fist, Solo (which was not his character btw), Deadpool, Ant-Man, etc), or broken in some way ("unworthy" Thor, Moon Knight is insane, Logan is now old, Colossus got all fat and depressed, Nova has some weird death thing going on, etc.). On the other hand, women and minorities come in two flavors: unmitigated bad-ass who is right even when they're wrong (too many to list), and happy-go-lucky quirky spunk-stravaganza who never fails because of their hilarious upbeat attitude! (Squirrel Girl, Ms. Marvel, Hellcat, etc.) The second group is almost entirely female, and, all females apparently can't stop taking selfies no matter how mundane or dangerous the moment *eye roll*.

    But maybe we're getting lost splitting hairs here. I think what I'm trying to say is that my guess is Marvel WOULDN'T make someone like Sam an evil Hydra agent, not because they don't think it would make a good story, but because they feel that's not something they could do w/ a female or minority character. And not only is that putting political correctness above storytelling, but it's actually rather bigoted in a certain way. But again, I'm open to more perspectives and information on this. Even if it doesn't change my mind completely, I'd appreciate being able to refine my point of view as accurately as possible. I hope we all feel that way in this talk, which I think is going well. No ad hominems! Go us! ^_^
    Well, you're complaining about white males in Marvel Comics being evil but yet you love Lee Price, who's a complete evil scumbag.

    As for Clint, Wade, and Scott Lang being screw-ups...that's their characters. Their imperfections are what makes them interesting (in the case of Danny, I don't even think the term "screw-up" applies. He's got his naivete but he's not a screw-up in the classic sense). They're flawed people. And Marvel was built on giving their heroes flaws. As opposed to the bright, shiny heroes that came before, Marvel heroes had feet of clay and self-doubt.

    Most of the female heroes you're complaining about like Squirrel Girl and Ms. Marvel are aimed at young girls. It wouldn't make much sense to have these characters be dark or troubled in the way that adult heroes are. They're young...of course they're going to be upbeat. And millennials are defined by their sense of optimism in a way that previous generations weren't.

    And while Marvel wouldn't make Sam a Hydra agent because it's not as strong a story as Steve being with Hydra, it's not as though they give Sam a free ride. They're telling a story with Sam about race in America that they couldn't tell with Steve and Sam is having a brutal time of it.

  9. #24
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    This series continues to get so-so reviews by many of the comic sites but I gotta say I continue to love it. Something about Price's dark, ruthless, scheming character, the grittiness of the drama, the almost complete lack of moral, sympathetic characters (pretty much everyone is a criminal or lowlife of some kind), and the dynamic art of Gerardo Sandoval (which may not be to everyone's taste but he draws a sick Venom, in my opinion).
    Sandoval's art is the sort of thing that works better for some series than others. He was abysmal on "Guardians 3000". But, for a series like "Venom", he is perfect.

    I think what makes Lee work as a character is that he is credibly evil. There are no nice guys in this series. But, Lee works because he is smart in that he has common sense. (He is fine being a bad guy. But, as stated in an earlier issue, he has no intention of robbing banks in broad daylight and advertising his name on the side of the get-away vehicle.) Lee wants what most civilized people want. He want a house and car, legally and in his name. (He just ain't picky about where the money comes from.)


    Bringing back Eddie definitely closes off some possibilities for this series. After the last few issues, where Lee loses any chance of keeping a double life, it would have been interesting to see him go for full-on super-villain motives. (If he cannot have anonymity, he will take power.) It might have been better for the next 6 issues to focus on Lee trying to gain power by using the symbiote to attack other superhumans, maybe killing a few c-listers before dying in an attempt to gain power from a Hulk or Thor.
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