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  1. #31
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clementine - The Worst Poster Ever View Post
    Not the way Injustice Superman became the monster he was, no.

    Under Snyder, I could see the New Gods exploiting Cavill's Superman's insecurities to mind control him, but he'd never go down the path Injustice Superman did. I think it'd more like what Dominus did with Superman or Darkseid in Superman: TAS, and he'd eventually regain control of himself.
    This.

    Now, its sort of hard to judge because we haven't gotten into Cav-El deeply enough to be sure, but from what we have seen no, I dont think Cavill's Superman would go that far off the deep end on his own. I could see him using lethal force when it wasn't the only option or otherwise being a much rougher, more dangerous Superman, but I think it would take a lot more than the death of a loved one for Clark to sell the world to Apokolips.

    Now, mind control is another matter entirely. And honestly, I always figured the Knightmare scene in BvS was hinting at that sort of direction. We've seen a few stories where Darkseid mind controls Superman, so to see Clark leading a horde of parademons immediately brought that setup to mind, and the line from Clark about Lois dying or whatever it was, I took to mean that Lois' death is what made the crack in Clark's psyche that Darkseid slipped through.

    And yes, I do believe that the Knightmare was supposed to be the endgame until the backlash hit and WB realized that just because Injustice was a popular video game, that doesnt mean it'd make a good movie.
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  2. #32
    Hi-Fi Fight Club Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    Lol, yes it was.

    My meaning with that was partially in reference to some of Zach's thoughts on Superheroes in general and some on Batman specifically, would mean that he'd lean that direction if he had full control of the sandbox with no fear of backlash. That's not that same as him doing so within the context of MoS or the DCEU. That said, I do think they might still do some kind of short-term "mind control" fight. But that's not the same thing.

    And a case could be made for DC/WB having a history of using controversy as a promotional tool (MoS's neck-snap, Pa saying "Maybe..", how Lois outing Superman's secret in the New52 was promoted, etc).

    All that having been said, they know not to take it that far, even if they had the inclination, which I agree they don't (or wouldn't let themselves, regardless). Cartainly not in the context of building this universe.

    I do know that Snyder didn't write these - but directors do tend to have at least some say in what's written in a general sense (hence why writers sometimes change when a new director is found, depending on the property). Given the amount of leaway he was given by WB (and leaway that's generally been given to directors on Superman as a movie franchise historically), it strikes me that this would likely have been the case with MoS's universe initially.
    If Snyder had absolute control of the Superman franchise, to the point where he didn't have to worry about making a profit, and could present his pure unadulterated vision, he still wouldn't have Superman go down the Injustice path.

    Injustice Superman is presented as a villain. Something terrible happened and it set him down the path of villainy.

    A pure Snyder Superman would be more like his other movies, 300 probably as the best example. We may take issue with whether Superman is actually a hero, but Snyder wouldn't present him as a villain.

    Edit

    Actually, I'll cut this part out. Can't see this ending well if I leave it in.
    Last edited by Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever; 03-18-2017 at 07:05 PM.
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  3. #33
    Mighty Member sakuyamons's Avatar
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    To be honest, I can't see Snyder doing it, BvS was about Superman being a symbol of hope to the point of pretentiousness with all the Jesus references. I can't imagine him going full-on Injustice Superman.

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member DieHard200904's Avatar
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    No, because I trashed the Injustice Superman playing with the Man of Steel skin in the video game.

    Before any of you flip out, observe the icon at the end please.

  5. #35
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clementine - The Worst Poster Ever View Post
    If Snyder had absolute control of the Superman franchise, to the point where he didn't have to worry about making a profit, and could present his pure unadulterated vision, he still wouldn't have Superman go down the Injustice path.

    Injustice Superman is presented as a villain. Something terrible happened and it set him down the path of villainy.

    A pure Snyder Superman would be more like his other movies, 300 probably as the best example. We may take issue with whether Superman is actually a hero, but Snyder wouldn't present him as a villain.
    Actually, that's a very good point, and I completely agree. WB might want to capitalize on Injustice, but Snyder would do like you're saying. Good call.

    Edit

    Actually, I'll cut this part out. Can't see this ending well if I leave it in.
    Aw...c'mon.. hehehe (only teasing)

    Quote Originally Posted by DieHard200904 View Post
    No, because I trashed the Injustice Superman playing with the Man of Steel skin in the video game.
    Well played, sir (played? see what I did there?)
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    Snyder Superman has little development. He doesn't seem to enjoy his gifts. He is a lonely man. Has control issues. He's has no friends. No Jimmy. No Bruce. No Diana. No Lana. No John Henry. He doesn't seem connected to Metropolis we see him loving his city say like Spiderman. Lois and his mother seem to be his only tether...and they made Lois his motivation in a huge way. If he loses Lois he prob could lose it. hat happened so far doesn't negate this Superman going an Injustice style fall from grace. But chances from all e have heard they learned not to go fully with
    Zak's dreary vision. Superman he'll do a 180 when he comes back. Prepare for smiles and wisecracks. But then didn't Injustice Superman before he lost his morals and marbles...was a bright happy guy? Had the same good upbringing etc and happy life? So is Injustice Superm a given if Superman loses his close human tethers? Seems that is what Dc been trying to push for a while. They need to stop that.
    There is zero indication that Snyder wanted to go the Injustice route. Any hints were purely shown to be Bruce's paraoia. Snyder's stance has always been that Clark can maintain his humanity regardless of the fact that he lives in a lesss than ideal world. A fact that seems completely alien to some fans and writers

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    There is a powerful fascination in positing what if Superman were the villain and not the hero. I guess it often comes to mind because what if the good guys were bad is not an uncommonly asked question, and there's a tendency to make nearly omnipotent fellows the antagonist for some underdog hero, making Superman an easy candidate. I can understand wanting to do that for a mass audience, but as a fan of comics, animation, and video games, it's so played out. But I would emphasize that because we've seen it in comics, animation, and video games, I feel like it's only a matter of time before we see it in movies. Here's hoping people think the dark Superman in Superman III plenty sufficed.

  8. #38
    Hi-Fi Fight Club Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    Aw...c'mon.. hehehe (only teasing)
    The bit I cut out was about the politics of Snyder's films. I had to cut it out, otherwise I'm sure it would have derailed the entire topic.
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  9. #39
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clementine - The Worst Poster Ever View Post
    The bit I cut out was about the politics of Snyder's films. I had to cut it out, otherwise I'm sure it would have derailed the entire topic.
    Ah. Yeah, probably a good idea. I just had to tease about it.
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  10. #40
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    Snyder Superman has little development.
    I don't see how this is true. We know a decent amount of information about the guy, including formative childhood events and importance choices he's made. He's not been a static character either, as he's changed over the course of each of his films.

    He doesn't seem to enjoy his gifts.
    Also not true. Sure, as a kid his powers scared him, but he didn't maintain that point of view. Just look at how he reacts to his new "gift" of flight. Does he look like someone who doesn't enjoy his gifts?



    He is a lonely man.
    Not really. He was a lonely child and young adult, but not a lonely man. He definitely doesn't come across as feeling lonely. His story is one of developing connections, and it's something that takes time. His most intimate connections that prevent him from being lonely are with Martha and Lois. He socializes with others, though, like Pete Ross and Lana Lang when he was a kid and with his co-workers at the Daily Planet after he joins the staff there. Other heroes and metahumans have only just begun to find him or come forward, so he is on the cusp of an even greater circle of friends and allies.

    Has control issues.
    I don't know where you got this idea.

    He's has no friends. No Jimmy. No Bruce. No Diana. No Lana. No John Henry.
    I don't see your point here. If the question is whether or not this Superman could become Injustice Superman, then you need to illustrate aspects of his character from the films. What reveals character are choices. The fact that DCEU Superman isn't friends with Jimmy or John Henry, for instance, isn't because he's made a choice to not make friends or because he's standoffish to those individuals. They simply don't exist. His friendships with Bruce and Diana are only beginning to take shape.

    He doesn't seem connected to Metropolis we see him loving his city say like Spiderman.
    But Superman isn't Spider-Man. He's more of a global figure than localized to one city like other heroes are. For him, he loves his world. He questioned whether there was a place for Superman in the world in BvS following the Capitol bombing, and concluded that there was. He sacrificed his life for a world that, at that moment, hated or doubted him because he had faith that it was a world that could still believe in hope.

    Lois and his mother seem to be his only tether...and they made Lois his motivation in a huge way.
    Not accurate in the slightest. He was motivated to save people long before Lois came into his life. Even Lois notes that when she first meets him when she says, "The only way you could disappear is to stop helping people altogether, and I sense that's not an option for you." This is a man who loved his father deeply, but allowed him to die for the good of the world. This is a man who loves his mother intensely, but chose the hard path of humbling himself and reaching out to Batman for his help to save her instead of killing him like Lex wanted, which would have spared her life. This is a man who, after the Capitol bombing made him think that he might be hurting the world more than helping, was willing to step aside. Now, he might intervene in a situation to save Lois, like he did in Africa, but that's not the same as forsaking everything else he believes in if she were to ever die.

    If he loses Lois he prob could lose it. hat happened so far doesn't negate this Superman going an Injustice style fall from grace. But chances from all e have heard they learned not to go fully with Zak's dreary vision. Superman he'll do a 180 when he comes back. Prepare for smiles and wisecracks. But then didn't Injustice Superman before he lost his morals and marbles...was a bright happy guy? Had the same good upbringing etc and happy life? So is Injustice Superman a given if Superman loses his close human tethers? Seems that is what Dc been trying to push for a while. They need to stop that.
    Zack's vision isn't dreary. He doesn't envision Superman as someone who would go dark or who is somehow better or more interesting dark. He's a director who, if you listen or read his interviews, is most interested in asking questions but not giving answers. He wants viewers to engage in conversation and analysis about these characters without imposing his own conclusions. So he includes something like the nightmare of a Superman gone bad with ambiguous context (Was it a premonition or was it a dream? Was Darkseid manipulating Batman and/or Superman?) simply to get us all to think about what could push Superman over the edge or even if he could be pushed. He doesn't give you the answer, though, because if he had we wouldn't be having this conversation. Outside of the nightmare, Zack's vision for Superman was of a guy who faced some of his lowest moments in BvS, yet chose to persevere and die as a hero despite all of it.

    Finally, if you're so against stories in which Superman loses his human tethers and embraces a darker path or isolation, then surely stories like Kingdom Come where losing Lois and experiencing the rejection of the public (disapproval of his versus Magog's approach to justice) inspire him to retreat or become cynical must repulse you? What does it say that in such stories, especially Injustice, Superman turns to Wonder Woman? Basically, everything you've said seems to be a warped take on stories you supposedly hate, like the DCEU films, and supposedly love, like Kingdom Come. Consequently, it's difficult to agree with or see merit in your particular take on this issue.

  11. #41
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    There is a powerful fascination in positing what if Superman were the villain and not the hero. I guess it often comes to mind because what if the good guys were bad is not an uncommonly asked question, and there's a tendency to make nearly omnipotent fellows the antagonist for some underdog hero, making Superman an easy candidate. I can understand wanting to do that for a mass audience, but as a fan of comics, animation, and video games, it's so played out. But I would emphasize that because we've seen it in comics, animation, and video games, I feel like it's only a matter of time before we see it in movies. Here's hoping people think the dark Superman in Superman III plenty sufficed.
    I think it can be argued that we've already seen the "hero goes bad" cliche in Batman during BvS.

    He kills tons of people indiscriminately, attempts to kill Superman despite Clark not doing anything that clearly makes him a threat (collateral damage notwithstanding, and he didn't start the fight in Metropolis) not to mention the excessive force he used on the thugs early on in the film, including branding them which, apparently, is a "death sentence" in Gotham's prisons.

    Batman was the villain of BvS. We've already seen that troupe used, so I doubt we'll see it again so soon.

    Then again, considering how underwhelming the DCEU films have been (other than MoS which was solid) it might be wise not to overestimate WB.
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  12. #42
    Astonishing Member Francisco's Avatar
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    What connections did Clark develop? Other than Lois..? Swanwick? They talked twice to each other in the first movie and never shared a single scene in the second movie. Perry? one scene in the second movie didn't last more than 10 seconds. No one else. Not even the senator who got killed before they could even exchange a single word. Superman/Clark has been incredibly neglected since at least the first half of Man of Steel. BvS was all about how to make Batman be the bad ass/ass kicker while Superman is the weakling who can't get anything done without Lois showing him the way. 3 frigging Lois Lane rescues and no interaction with anyone else but his mom. Then getting his ass kicked by Batman and needing Lois to save him from getting murdered by bad ass/ ass kicker Batman. Then Batman goes on to save Martha's life, hijacking the movie even further by having the coolest action sequences. All the while Superman gets killed and everybody mourns him even though we never saw him interact with anybody (we were told or shown stuff from afar and from very brief moments) yeah he rescued that girl in Mexico. We didn't get to see the actual rescue just the aftermath because only Lois deserves to be rescued on screen. God forbid we get to see Superman talk to Wonder Woman. God forbids Clark Kent gets to actually be portrayed as someone smart and competent and as someone who knows who frigging Bruce Wayne is. Someone who after the bombing doesn't run away but who investigate what happened. God forbid we could have a subplot with Superman interacting with other characters instead of Batman hopping around in an apocalyptic setting. In sume God forbid Superman having an actual sequel to his own movie.
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  13. #43
    Astonishing Member Francisco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think it can be argued that we've already seen the "hero goes bad" cliche in Batman during BvS.

    He kills tons of people indiscriminately, attempts to kill Superman despite Clark not doing anything that clearly makes him a threat (collateral damage notwithstanding, and he didn't start the fight in Metropolis) not to mention the excessive force he used on the thugs early on in the film, including branding them which, apparently, is a "death sentence" in Gotham's prisons.

    Batman was the villain of BvS. We've already seen that troupe used, so I doubt we'll see it again so soon.

    Then again, considering how underwhelming the DCEU films have been (other than MoS which was solid) it might be wise not to overestimate WB.
    The thing is Batman will always survive that because he is the normal human who kicked Superman's butt. Because Superman is weak and dumb and unprepared and lame. Batman is da coolest and Superman suxs!! That's the mentality behind BvS. That's the notion the non comic reading audiences go away with. Pansy red underpants gets beaten by Batman. And then Batman goes on to save the mom of the square, dumb, lamer boyscout. The dumb boy scout who would have become evil because his girlfriend got killed. They (general audience) will say that those people Batman killed were criminals and actually deserved to die. To them there's no difference between Batman and John McLane. They literally threw Superman under the bus once again to make Batman look awesome.
    "By force of will he turns his gaze upon the seething horror bellow us on the hillside.
    Yes, he feels the icy touch of fear, but he is not cowed. He is Superman!"

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think it can be argued that we've already seen the "hero goes bad" cliche in Batman during BvS.

    He kills tons of people indiscriminately, attempts to kill Superman despite Clark not doing anything that clearly makes him a threat (collateral damage notwithstanding, and he didn't start the fight in Metropolis) not to mention the excessive force he used on the thugs early on in the film, including branding them which, apparently, is a "death sentence" in Gotham's prisons.

    Batman was the villain of BvS. We've already seen that troupe used, so I doubt we'll see it again so soon.

    Then again, considering how underwhelming the DCEU films have been (other than MoS which was solid) it might be wise not to overestimate WB.
    While I hope you're right, I'm not hopeful (as in brimming with hope and optimism) that you're right.

    If I had to compare BvS vs. Injustice (at least the in-game story and the first two seasons), I'd say Batman might've been wrong, but he's more... sympathetic, for lack of a better term. It essentially is his movie (as Jesse Eisenberg accidentally pointed out by calling the movie "Batman" during production), and so much of it is spent from his POV. The aspects of Injustice I described don't really frame the story in a way that makes you agree with Superman; at best, you can say you understand why he's pissed, and see that he went from pissed to overzealous. I guess you could say that's kind of true about Bats in BvS, but again, they spend a lot of time showing his PoV. Furthermore, Batman's villainy is dwarfed by Lex's, whereas Superman is the clear-cut villain in Injustice. So, at least from my PoV, BvS does nothing to Batman that Injustice does to Superman. To be fair, maybe Injustice gave Superman a better fate after the first two seasons, but it shouldn't have taken that long.

    And agreed about not wanting to overestimate WB.

    Anyway, it'd be a travesty if Superman became like Injustice Superman. And since we're talking WB, I have Batfleck-like paranoia that it's going to happen.

  15. #45
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Oh, I think its almost a given that WB will screw up Superman (again). They simply fail to understand his appeal and his character, and every attempt to mold him into something they do understand only serves to diminish the property's viability, which makes WB think the character is even more "broken" than they thought.....which leads them to trying to "fix" him more.....and so on and so forth goes the vicious cycle.

    The only way this circuit gets broken is if someone at WB who truly gets the character ends up in charge of him (including having a say in how DC handles him in print). And that seems unlikely; WB has seen several changes in management over the years and no one has shown up who fits the bill. I suppose its just a sign of the times; Batman is easier and he doesnt ask you to be anything more than the lowest, worst version of yourself (because a lifelong quest for vengeance is super healthy as long as you look badass while you're doing it). Superman is harder; even if he's not actively telling you to stop your bitching and man up his very existence brings to light every failing you have. And a lot of people would rather deal with alternate facts than the idea that they're not living up to their potential.

    Myself, Im done with the DCEU. My wife is crazy excited about Wonder Woman, so we'll be seeing that in theaters whether I want to or not. But otherwise, until the movies start getting glowing reviews from critics and fans alike, and people I trust say good things, I've washed my hands of DC's movies.
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