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  1. #46
    Ultimate Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Meal View Post
    Batwoman has a bit of a rivalry thing going that doesn't help, 'what can Batwoman do that Batman can't' and all that, makes her seem a bit like Damian in that regard with needing to prove herself.
    "Rivalry" isn't really the right word. She's never had that with him and I don't think she has it now. This is more her thinking about her own role as a crimefighter, and using Batman as a comparison because, well... she can't really use anyone else.

    Plus, it's muddied by her not trusting him, since she accuses of Julia of being Batman's Spy and so thinks Batman is spying on her in her solo.
    On the contrary, I think she largely does trust him, but she's also not stupid. She knows how he operates. She suspected him of keeping secrets even in 'Tec #934, after all. She reads spy novels, she's tuned into these things a bit. Genre-savvy. You notice how she didn't really seem to care what answer Julia gave? Didn't pry for an answer? I think she's just assuming Julia's a mole to be safe.
    Mega fan of: Helena Bertinelli (pre-52), Batwoman, Birds of Prey, Guardians of the Galaxy, Secret Six
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  2. #47
    Incredible Member Lady Nightwing's Avatar
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    Alfred,Dick, everyone else.

    But Alfred by a long shot. Dick is a tiny smidge above the others but not by much. Bruce likes to endanger the fam by not telling them about the Joker knowing their identities or that Mother is still alive and kicking.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Nightwing View Post
    Alfred,Dick, everyone else.

    But Alfred by a long shot. Dick is a tiny smidge above the others but not by much. Bruce likes to endanger the fam by not telling them about the Joker knowing their identities or that Mother is still alive and kicking.
    Alfred the Butler is next on the food chain, right below Bruce himself. Then I'd say either Duke or Tim because they're both super-geniuses etc etc etc and absolutely perfect in every way. Then Ace and Titus because Dogs Are Man's Best Friends. Bat-Cow would rank above Alfred the Cat because cats aren't loyal or trustworthy by nature (I should know--I live in a house with two of 'em who both hate me--BUT they're perfectly content with eating my food and clawing me to ribbons). Then I'd rank whatever orphans have ever lived in Wayne Manor until their expiration dates. I think Bruce likes to endanger his family because he secretly wants to get rid of all of them so he can bring in even more kid sidekicks.

  4. #49
    Astonishing Member batnbreakfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oasis1313 View Post
    Then I'd rank whatever orphans have ever lived in Wayne Manor until their expiration dates. I think Bruce likes to endanger his family because he secretly wants to get rid of all of them so he can bring in even more kid sidekicks.
    Bruce: "Pssst, Joker. Over here. Tim's at the corner of Finger and Sprang tonight"

  5. #50
    Spectacular Member FlictsLantern's Avatar
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    I think Batman still does not fully trust anyone. In other chronologies, he had plans to neutralize every other DC hero - I believe that is still so. When Damian kidnapped Jon Kent and Clark went to save his son, Batman quickly pulled some kriptonite batarang.

    That said..
    First tier: Alfred
    Second Tier: Dick Grayson
    (Wonder Woman would probably be here)
    3rd tier: Gordon, Tim (eeeeh, not so sure - the Bats put him under Katy for training, right? But, for time being...), Superman, Catwoman, Katy Kane, Duke Thomas, Cass.
    4th tier: Damian Wayne (trust means nothing without control. And he can't control this Robin), Barbara
    5th tier: Jason, Jean-Paul.
    6th tier: eeeeeeh, you don't want to be here or lower.
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  6. #51
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    It looks like #1 Alfred and #2 Dick are pretty unanimous so far.

    The dark horse on this list is Selina, I think. In Bruce's solo book, it really seems like he trusts her more than anyone (bar Alfred), but you don't get this impression in any other book.

    It's like a reverse of Barbara. They're probably supposed to have a very close relationship, but there just hasn't been any chance to explore that as they've barely interacted since New 52 started, so we have to assume they're got little-to-no working relationship based on the evidence.

  7. #52
    Astonishing Member theoneandonly's Avatar
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    Superman: Do you really trust them?
    Batman: I don't trust anybody.
    Superman: Thanks I will remember that.
    Batman: Are you asking me if I think they can get the job done, well I came here didn't I.
    That's Batman's view when you come down to it of everybody who works with him. he trusts them to get the job done according to their abilities and for his trusting someone intimately everone associated with him feels a certain amount of uncertainty in that regard
    The Self is the only existing reality

  8. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlictsLantern View Post
    3rd tier: Tim (eeeeh, not so sure - the Bats put him under Katy for training, right? But, for time being...), Superman,
    Tim wasn't part of the training team. He was put in as second in command and the guy who built the headquaters. He'd pretty much be tied with Dick. He's the one who figures out all the secrets.
    Superman...well it seems to depend which book, but generaly he doesn't trust the "new" Superman. The 52Superman was the greatest guy evah!!! but the older replacement who knows everything as if he's read Who's Who isn't trusted yet.
    Static Pulse: That's why I like you. You're like four degrees away from being a William Gibson protagonist.
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  9. #54
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    Haven't followed the Rebirth books that well, but thought I'd take a crack at it...


    Alfred
    Dick
    Tim, Barbara
    Kate
    Damian
    Duke
    Cass
    Jason
    Steph

    Honestly, I'm not sure about how his relationship with Barbara stands right now, but I'm putting her as high as she is based on their history (which I assume mostly translates to current continuity)...with her being part of the 'original' Bat-family along with Dick.

    Also, if we were to include other heroes - then I'd say Superman and Wonder Woman possibly rank higher than Tim and Barbara, and either equal to or a little lower than Dick. Probably most of the other original Leaguers fall into roughly the same space.

  10. #55
    Heir of Batman adrikito's Avatar
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    Himself
    Alfred
    Jim Gordon
    Dick Grayson
    Damian
    ........
    ..
    .
    ..
    ...
    ...
    ...
    less trust in the rest of the characters.
    Last edited by adrikito; 03-21-2017 at 01:32 PM.

  11. #56
    Mighty Member CPSparkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scavenger View Post
    Tim wasn't part of the training team. He was put in as second in command and the guy who built the headquaters. He'd pretty much be tied with Dick. He's the one who figures out all the secrets.
    Superman...well it seems to depend which book, but generaly he doesn't trust the "new" Superman. The 52Superman was the greatest guy evah!!! but the older replacement who knows everything as if he's read Who's Who isn't trusted yet.
    What has figuring out secrets and building have to do with trust. Realistically Batman would trust the person who likes to snoop and figure out other peoples secrets the least. I would and I'm not half as paranoid as Batman.

    Alfred is the only person Bruce trust and then Dick.

  12. #57
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    Batwoman and Batwing are bigger characters that Cass and Steph...LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OL...because they appeared on a animated movie...Batwing, a character with what? 5 years of history total? less?...following this logic, i would say that Harper is a bigger character than them as well, because she was the main character of "Batman Eternal" and "Batman And Robin Eternal"...and Duke is a bigger character than them because he is going to be "the face" of the next DC big summer event...
    Seriously, i don't consider even Damian, a character than got introduced only on 2006, to be a bigger character than Steph...let alone the others...and him getting pushed to appear elsehere doesn't change anything, any character can be pushed.
    Btw, not to mention the fact Damian only really "takes off" and does something major, as long as Batman is around, "Damian Son Of Batman", "Robin son of Batman", "Batman vs Robin", "Batman and Robin"...many people enjoyed Damian also because of his interactions with Dick Grayson who at the time was "Batman"...without Batman, Damian isn't even marketable, not anymore than Tim Drake is for exemple.

  13. #58
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    Btw, coming to think about it, as much as i wouldn't like it if it ever happened..you could retcon and introduce Cass and Steph into be Green Arrow characters, and it would be the same thing..character-wise...all you had to do is say that David Cain was one of Oliver's early trainers instead of Bruce's...and you wouldn't lose a bit of what makes Cass, Cass...Steph is about being Spoiler about ruining her father's Cluemaster plans, you don't need Batman for that...but on the other hand, if you take Batman away from Dick, Jason, Damian, you hurt those characters alot, at a intrinsic level...plus, the most interisting stories about them is about Batman is around...think about it, Jason keeps interacting with the Robin, the former Robins, Babs, and others, but he's only ever relevant when he's interacting with Batman, and their issues and all the drama around it...without it hes like a outsider...Dick has kinda grown past that, but still his main "themes" are still getting used and repeated to this day: "living up to Batman's expecations", "getting along with Batman", "getting out of Batman's shadow"...everything revolves around Batman...Damian is the worst of all, being the "biological son of Batman" he's not only dependent on Batman, hes dependent on Bruce Wayne...
    It really makes you think about the strenghs of a character and what would happen to them without Bruce...not trying to bash any of them here, i'm a fan of them as well, just critically thinking here.

  14. #59
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    Steph had at least pre crisis a lot of stories that revolved about not being good enough for the job. And she dosen't have that many stories in general since she was mostly just a supporting charcter for Tim and Cass.

    Cass on the other hand depends really more on David Cain and Lady Shiva, thats why I'm really wondering what they are going to do with her now. David died in B&RE and I don't think that there is much left to do with Shiva after the current arc.


    Appart from this, is of course the fact that the Green Arrow franchise can't support more than one series, which kinds of limits the amount of support characters he can have around and I don't think that Cass would fit well in the franchise.
    Last edited by Aahz; 03-22-2017 at 03:48 AM.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Steph had at least pre crisis a lot of stories that revolved about not being good enough for the job. And she dosen't have that many stories in general since she was mostly just a supporting charcter for Tim and Cass.

    Cass on the other hand depends really more on David Cain and Lady Shiva, thats why I'm really wondering what they are going to do with her now. David died in B&RE and I don't think that there is much left to do with Shiva after the current arc.


    Appart from this, is of course the fact that the Green Arrow franchise can't support more than one series, which kinds of limits the amount of support characters he can have around and I don't think that Cass would fit well in the franchise.
    Steph was a big character, she is the only character to have been both Robin and Batgirl...of course, you know that when a character that is deemed as being toxic by the people in charge themselves...is going to have a hard time shining...
    Cass doesn't deppend on either, David Cain even counting the entirity of his appearences, and not just the ones when Cass was around with him, David has less than 1/4 of Cassandra's appearences so far, David has less than 100 and Cass has more than 400...Lady Shiva much like David Cain was a huge part of Cassandra's history for obvious reasons, as they should, and thats a good thing, but Lady Shiva pre-flashpoint shared panel time with Cass in no more than 30 issues, plus some mentions and statements here and there without both of them even appearing on the same issue...she has had very strong connections to Bruce, Babs and Steph for instances, specially at a emotional level, Bruce was pretty much a father figure to her and someone to look up to...she has had stories with Tim, Superboy, Supergirl, some of the league of assassins members as well ones at a time...and so on, etc, etc...Even on this new continuity, Cass is on a team book with no David Cain or Lady Shiva as regulares or even recurring, and they are only appearing now because its Cassandra's character-centric-story-arc, once its over, so will be their appearences on Detective Comics, although they will appear again eventually, (i hope so, because i'm a big fan of them), but likewise it won't have to do with Cass at least not directly (Shiva more so than David, who is dead right now, but we know that death in comics can be easly retconed )
    I'm not saying that i would like Cass and Steph to be Green Arrow characters, because i really wouldn't, like not ever, all i'm saying is that Cass and Steph are less dependent on Batman than the others, and i'm not talking about sales and you know it.
    Last edited by bat_girl_cc; 03-22-2017 at 05:01 AM.

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