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  1. #46
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atlanta96 View Post
    "Best selling female lead DC book written solely by a female creator". Wow, what a mind blowing accomplishment. If you ignore the fact that Gail Simone had a massively successful Batgirl run and extremely popular Harley Quinn has a female co-writer.

    Also, Comixology ranks all their releases by number of sales so if Batgirl was a digital hit you could prove it. Can you?
    Actually it is. DC was criticized for not having more female creators on their books. So yes, thats an accomplishment for them to have female lead book, written exclusively by a woman, be above water. Im sure DC could have put a more notable male name on the title if they only cared about its floppy sales. And when Batgirl's week a comes along ill gladly take a look.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 03-19-2017 at 11:48 AM.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by unclepulky View Post
    I mean, yes, that's what Tim did throughout the New52. RealTim is a Hell of a lot more than that though. World's greatest wielder of the bo staff (According to a DC encyclopedia), somewhere in the world's top 5 greatest detectives, and along with Steph, the closest thing to an everyman among the Robins.
    I'm not sure how far you get being an "everyman" when you're also The Best In The World At Fighting With A Staff And Also In The Top Five Detectives Alive And Also Also A Genius Computer Hacker.

    The best way to reclaim the things that made Tim interesting is to remove a lot of these fairly banal "feats" that are poison to good comics - but given this will reduce Tim's standing in Top Trumps comparisons against other characters, I can't see a lot of his fans being happy with it as a solution.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Actually it is. DC was criticized for not having more female creators on their books. So yes, thats an accomplishment for them to have female lead book, written exclusively by another woman, be above water. And when Batgirl's week a comes along ill gladly take a look.
    An accomplishment that's made them no money or an increase in readership, so it never mattered in the first place

  4. #49
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claude View Post
    I'm not sure how far you get being an "everyman" when you're also The Best In The World At Fighting With A Staff And Also In The Top Five Detectives Alive And Also Also A Genius Computer Hacker.

    The best way to reclaim the things that made Tim interesting is to remove a lot of these fairly banal "feats" that are poison to good comics - but given this will reduce Tim's standing in Top Trumps comparisons against other characters, I can't see a lot of his fans being happy with it as a solution.
    Well, if Spider-Man can still be an everyman despite having superpowers, I don't think Tim having some impressive feats (that one would expect from a Batfamily member) makes him any less of one.

    The real indicator of an everyman, in my opinion, is their personality and their life outside their costume. Post-Crisis Tim had that in spades, even to some degree during his Red Robin days, but New 52 Tim didn't and it hurt the character quite a bit.

    I would downplay the hacking and tech thing a little though.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claude View Post
    I'm not sure how far you get being an "everyman" when you're also The Best In The World At Fighting With A Staff And Also In The Top Five Detectives Alive And Also Also A Genius Computer Hacker.

    The best way to reclaim the things that made Tim interesting is to remove a lot of these fairly banal "feats" that are poison to good comics - but given this will reduce Tim's standing in Top Trumps comparisons against other characters, I can't see a lot of his fans being happy with it as a solution.
    A superhero needs to have some level of remarkable skills in order to work within the DCU. Wally West's status as the Fastest Man Alive never prevented him from being a relatable everyman. Peter Parker, the most popular everyman superhero ever, has usually been portrayed as a bit too smart for his age.

    That's not to say Tim's intelligence shouldn't be toned down a bit, but it shouldn't stop him from being relatable. Depending on how he's written.

  6. #51
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    Make him Oracle, to many batfamily that aren't needed

  7. #52
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atlanta96 View Post
    26,000 is pretty bad for any comic book, but especially for a character of Batgirls caliber. Her first New 52 run was a huge hit, even the Stephanie Brown Batgirl run did better than this.
    You can't just compare the numbers from 7-or-8 years ago to today's numbers unless you can show there are as many overall buyers today as there were back then. And other things are different as well, such as the frequency of automatically issuing tpb collections for almost every series now in a much timelier manner back then; digital sales; etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Atlanta96 View Post
    And in response to Major Hoy, being in the top 100 is not an instant sign of success, especially if sales are still dropping. Anything below 30k, unless compensated for by massive trade sales, should be considered a failing book.
    This is based on who's remarks? Have you seen a credible source from DC say this number within the past couple of years or something?
    And, by your calculations, all but 78 comic book issues (not even titles!) published in February 2017 were "failures". Really?
    Units / Dollars / Comic-book Title / Issue / Price / Publisher / Est. units
    1 1 Star Wars Darth Maul 1 $4.99 Marvel 105,177
    2 5 Batman 16 $2.99 DC 102,096
    3 7 Batman 17 $2.99 DC 99,637
    4 4 Justice League of America 1* $2.99 DC 93,494
    5 3 Super Sons 1* $2.99 DC 90,345
    6 8 Walking Dead 164 $2.99 Image 83,999
    7 2 All Star Batman 7 $4.99 DC 77,096
    8 6 Star Wars 28 $3.99 Marvel 74,002
    9 11 Justice League of America Rebirth 1* $2.99 DC 73,397
    10 16 Justice League 14 $2.99 DC 65,458
    11 17 Justice League 15 $2.99 DC 64,230
    12 9 Detective Comics 950 $3.99 DC 62,628
    13 10 Amazing Spider-Man 24 $3.99 Marvel 61,953
    14 22 Detective Comics 951 $2.99 DC 59,630
    15 25 Flash 16 $2.99 DC 57,039
    16 12 IVX 4 $3.99 Marvel 56,969
    17 26 Superman 16 $2.99 DC 56,105
    18 28 Flash 17 $2.99 DC 55,234
    19 29 Superman 17 $2.99 DC 54,561
    20 15 IVX 5 $3.99 Marvel 53,348
    21 23 Batwoman Rebirth 1* $2.99 DC 52,650
    22 37 Wonder Woman 16 $2.99 DC 49,921
    23 13 Wild Storm 1* $3.99 DC 49,493
    24 18 Clone Conspiracy 5 $3.99 Marvel 48,780
    25 40 Suicide Squad 11 $2.99 DC 48,723
    26 41 Wonder Woman 17 $2.99 DC 48,662
    27 45 Suicide Squad 12 $2.99 DC 46,860
    28 21 Unworthy Thor 4 $3.99 Marvel 46,006
    29 48 Harley Quinn 13 $2.99 DC 45,400
    30 20 Elektra 1 $3.99 Marvel 44,310
    31 51 Titans 8 $2.99 DC 44,028
    32 50 Harley Quinn 14 $2.99 DC 43,798
    33 24 Star Wars Doctor Aphra 4 $3.99 Marvel 43,475
    34 14 Monsters Unleashed 2 $4.99 Marvel 43,355
    35 54 Action Comics 973 $2.99 DC 43,047
    36 56 Nightwing 14 $2.99 DC 42,656
    37 62 Trinity 6 $2.99 DC 42,001
    38 63 Action Comics 974 $2.99 DC 41,712
    39 64 Nightwing 15 $2.99 DC 41,423
    40 31 Star Wars Poe Dameron 11 $3.99 Marvel 40,235
    41 32 Mighty Thor 16 $3.99 Marvel 40,175
    42 188 True Believers Wolverine Vs Hulk 1 $1.00 Marvel 39,177
    43 72 Teen Titans 5 $2.99 DC 39,028
    44 33 Old Man Logan 17 $3.99 Marvel 38,851
    45 35 Old Man Logan 18 $3.99 Marvel 38,679
    46 34 Deadpool 26 $3.99 Marvel 38,560
    47 30 Venom 4 $3.99 Marvel 38,337
    48 36 Spider-Man Deadpool 14 $3.99 Marvel 38,307
    49 19 Monsters Unleashed 3 $4.99 Marvel 38,205
    50 75 Green Lanterns 16 $2.99 DC 37,845
    51 38 Doctor Strange 17 $3.99 Marvel 37,686
    52 76 Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps 14 $2.99 DC 37,504
    53 39 Avengers 4 $3.99 Marvel 37,383
    54 78 Green Lanterns 17 $2.99 DC 36,626
    55 42 Captain America Steve Rogers 11 $3.99 Marvel 36,610
    56 43 Invincible Iron Man 4 $3.99 Marvel 36,600
    57 80 Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps 15 $2.99 DC 36,331
    58 44 Kingpin 1 $3.99 Marvel 36,095
    59 46 Black Panther 11 $3.99 Marvel 35,492
    60 47 Uncanny X-Men 18 $3.99 Marvel 34,948
    61 49 Spider-Man 13 $3.99 Marvel 34,195
    62 27 Bullseye 1 $4.99 Marvel 33,511
    63 86 Green Arrow 16 $2.99 DC 33,371
    64 53 Deadpool 27 $3.99 Marvel 32,836
    65 52 Justice League Power Rangers 2 $3.99 DC 32,835
    66 55 Captain America Steve Rogers 12 $3.99 Marvel 32,567
    67 87 Green Arrow 17 $2.99 DC 32,392
    68 57 Extraordinary X-Men 19 $3.99 Marvel 32,328
    69 58 Thanos 4 $3.99 Marvel 32,032
    70 60 Daredevil 17 $3.99 Marvel 31,794
    71 61 Amazing Spider-Man Renew Your Vows 4 $3.99 Marvel 31,750
    72 90 Aquaman 16 $2.99 DC 31,408
    73 65 Champions 5 $3.99 Marvel 31,344
    74 68 Guardians of Galaxy 17 $3.99 Marvel 31,093
    75 66 Uncanny Avengers 20 $3.99 Marvel 31,089
    76 92 Aquaman 17 $2.99 DC 30,584
    77 91 Paper Girls 11 $2.99 Image 30,562
    78 69 All New X-Men 18 $3.99 Marvel 30,334
    79 71 Infamous Iron Man 5 $3.99 Marvel 29,685
    80 73 All New Wolverine 17 $3.99 Marvel 29,255
    http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...7/2017-02.html

  8. #53
    Mighty Member theoneandonly's Avatar
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    maybe he could try to actively pursue courses for development as a fictional character or meditate on dcs convoluted continuity and turn into the insane future joker.lol but speaking seriously maybe a tad tweaking of the character won't hurt him. As for his immediate future I hope he could somehow play a role in button somehow managing to leave some clue for Batman to follow though how is anybody's guess.
    The Self is the only existing reality

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    You can't just compare the numbers from 7-or-8 years ago to today's numbers unless you can show there are as many overall buyers today as there were back then. And other things are different as well, such as the frequency of automatically issuing tpb collections for almost every series now in a much timelier manner back then; digital sales; etc.

    This is based on who's remarks? Have you seen a credible source from DC say this number within the past couple of years or something?
    And, by your calculations, all but 78 comic book issues (not even titles!) published in February 2017 were "failures". Really?
    Units / Dollars / Comic-book Title / Issue / Price / Publisher / Est. units
    1 1 Star Wars Darth Maul 1 $4.99 Marvel 105,177
    2 5 Batman 16 $2.99 DC 102,096
    3 7 Batman 17 $2.99 DC 99,637
    4 4 Justice League of America 1* $2.99 DC 93,494
    5 3 Super Sons 1* $2.99 DC 90,345
    6 8 Walking Dead 164 $2.99 Image 83,999
    7 2 All Star Batman 7 $4.99 DC 77,096
    8 6 Star Wars 28 $3.99 Marvel 74,002
    9 11 Justice League of America Rebirth 1* $2.99 DC 73,397
    10 16 Justice League 14 $2.99 DC 65,458
    11 17 Justice League 15 $2.99 DC 64,230
    12 9 Detective Comics 950 $3.99 DC 62,628
    13 10 Amazing Spider-Man 24 $3.99 Marvel 61,953
    14 22 Detective Comics 951 $2.99 DC 59,630
    15 25 Flash 16 $2.99 DC 57,039
    16 12 IVX 4 $3.99 Marvel 56,969
    17 26 Superman 16 $2.99 DC 56,105
    18 28 Flash 17 $2.99 DC 55,234
    19 29 Superman 17 $2.99 DC 54,561
    20 15 IVX 5 $3.99 Marvel 53,348
    21 23 Batwoman Rebirth 1* $2.99 DC 52,650
    22 37 Wonder Woman 16 $2.99 DC 49,921
    23 13 Wild Storm 1* $3.99 DC 49,493
    24 18 Clone Conspiracy 5 $3.99 Marvel 48,780
    25 40 Suicide Squad 11 $2.99 DC 48,723
    26 41 Wonder Woman 17 $2.99 DC 48,662
    27 45 Suicide Squad 12 $2.99 DC 46,860
    28 21 Unworthy Thor 4 $3.99 Marvel 46,006
    29 48 Harley Quinn 13 $2.99 DC 45,400
    30 20 Elektra 1 $3.99 Marvel 44,310
    31 51 Titans 8 $2.99 DC 44,028
    32 50 Harley Quinn 14 $2.99 DC 43,798
    33 24 Star Wars Doctor Aphra 4 $3.99 Marvel 43,475
    34 14 Monsters Unleashed 2 $4.99 Marvel 43,355
    35 54 Action Comics 973 $2.99 DC 43,047
    36 56 Nightwing 14 $2.99 DC 42,656
    37 62 Trinity 6 $2.99 DC 42,001
    38 63 Action Comics 974 $2.99 DC 41,712
    39 64 Nightwing 15 $2.99 DC 41,423
    40 31 Star Wars Poe Dameron 11 $3.99 Marvel 40,235
    41 32 Mighty Thor 16 $3.99 Marvel 40,175
    42 188 True Believers Wolverine Vs Hulk 1 $1.00 Marvel 39,177
    43 72 Teen Titans 5 $2.99 DC 39,028
    44 33 Old Man Logan 17 $3.99 Marvel 38,851
    45 35 Old Man Logan 18 $3.99 Marvel 38,679
    46 34 Deadpool 26 $3.99 Marvel 38,560
    47 30 Venom 4 $3.99 Marvel 38,337
    48 36 Spider-Man Deadpool 14 $3.99 Marvel 38,307
    49 19 Monsters Unleashed 3 $4.99 Marvel 38,205
    50 75 Green Lanterns 16 $2.99 DC 37,845
    51 38 Doctor Strange 17 $3.99 Marvel 37,686
    52 76 Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps 14 $2.99 DC 37,504
    53 39 Avengers 4 $3.99 Marvel 37,383
    54 78 Green Lanterns 17 $2.99 DC 36,626
    55 42 Captain America Steve Rogers 11 $3.99 Marvel 36,610
    56 43 Invincible Iron Man 4 $3.99 Marvel 36,600
    57 80 Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps 15 $2.99 DC 36,331
    58 44 Kingpin 1 $3.99 Marvel 36,095
    59 46 Black Panther 11 $3.99 Marvel 35,492
    60 47 Uncanny X-Men 18 $3.99 Marvel 34,948
    61 49 Spider-Man 13 $3.99 Marvel 34,195
    62 27 Bullseye 1 $4.99 Marvel 33,511
    63 86 Green Arrow 16 $2.99 DC 33,371
    64 53 Deadpool 27 $3.99 Marvel 32,836
    65 52 Justice League Power Rangers 2 $3.99 DC 32,835
    66 55 Captain America Steve Rogers 12 $3.99 Marvel 32,567
    67 87 Green Arrow 17 $2.99 DC 32,392
    68 57 Extraordinary X-Men 19 $3.99 Marvel 32,328
    69 58 Thanos 4 $3.99 Marvel 32,032
    70 60 Daredevil 17 $3.99 Marvel 31,794
    71 61 Amazing Spider-Man Renew Your Vows 4 $3.99 Marvel 31,750
    72 90 Aquaman 16 $2.99 DC 31,408
    73 65 Champions 5 $3.99 Marvel 31,344
    74 68 Guardians of Galaxy 17 $3.99 Marvel 31,093
    75 66 Uncanny Avengers 20 $3.99 Marvel 31,089
    76 92 Aquaman 17 $2.99 DC 30,584
    77 91 Paper Girls 11 $2.99 Image 30,562
    78 69 All New X-Men 18 $3.99 Marvel 30,334
    79 71 Infamous Iron Man 5 $3.99 Marvel 29,685
    80 73 All New Wolverine 17 $3.99 Marvel 29,255
    http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...7/2017-02.html
    There's MORE DC buyers than there was back then.

    https://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/09...52-did-so-far/

    I've proved that Rebirth Batgirl is doing poorly for any Batgirl book in any era, I've proved that digital sales aren't high enough to make up for it (see previous page) and I've proved that the number of overall DC comics readers compared to the New 52 or earlier doesn't make a bloody difference.

    I can't believe some people are so desperate to defend a mediocre Batgirl run. Not everything I like does well, just accept it and move on.

  10. #55
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atlanta96 View Post
    There's MORE DC buyers than there was back then.

    https://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/09...52-did-so-far/

    I've proved that Rebirth Batgirl is doing poorly for any Batgirl book in any era, I've proved that digital sales aren't high enough to make up for it (see previous page) and I've proved that the number of overall DC comics readers compared to the New 52 or earlier doesn't make a bloody difference.

    I can't believe some people are so desperate to defend a mediocre Batgirl run. Not everything I like does well, just accept it and move on.
    You still haven't shown where that 30,0000 copy cut-off number for SUCCESS vs. FAILURE comes from.

    And your link to the Bleeding Cool post seems to indicate there have been more buyers for Rebirth than for the New52, but doesn't seem to have information on how many buyers for DC books there were prior to 2011.

    And the only thing I'm arguing about Rebirth Batgirl is that you make it sound like its losing money for DC and on the brink of cancelation, which seems a bit much. It's more a middle-of-the-road title (probably "adequate" would be my guess) than a "FAILURE" from what I see. (But if you can quote someone knowledgeable at DC who says otherwise, please feel free to do so.)

  11. #56
    Incredible Member failo.legendkiller's Avatar
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    N52 failed when they choose Dick as agent of Spyral instead of Tim. He needed that role much more than Dick and would have been more logic.

    Anyway, first thing he needs is to stop this "most genius in the world" thing, it makes him cocky and it's not his truly style.
    He's a kind person and has many good friends.
    Young Justice people will always be an important part of his life and that coul be another great problem cause Cassie, Conner and Bart are in a worse situation than him.
    Give him a solo book, give him to a great writer who could continue his path from Pre-Flashpoint, creating good support charcters. He always had great support characters!
    Restore his relationship with Bruce, he needs more interaction wih him.
    More interactions with all his Robins brothers would be great, less conflicts and more family.
    Tim Drake is positivity and kindness and he's a humble boy, it was his main trait in Dixon era. If they follow that road cannot fail.

    The Oracle thing is interesting too, but a little bit dangerous.

  12. #57
    Ultimate Member Assam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by failo.legendkiller View Post
    N52 failed when they choose Dick as agent of Spyral instead of Tim. He needed that role much more than Dick and would have been more logic.
    You know WHY Grayson happened at all, right? DiDio, who hates Dick and has wanted him gone since Infinite Crisis, thought that if he turned Dick into a secret agent, the book would bomb, and he could be rid of him forever.

    Yeah, that kinda backfired, didn't it.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by unclepulky View Post
    You know WHY Grayson happened at all, right? DiDio, who hates Dick and has wanted him gone since Infinite Crisis, thought that if he turned Dick into a secret agent, the book would bomb, and he could be rid of him forever.

    Yeah, that kinda backfired, didn't it.
    Heh, I can't wait till the Nightwing movie comes out. Didio will have a breakdown

  14. #59
    Incredible Member failo.legendkiller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unclepulky View Post
    You know WHY Grayson happened at all, right? DiDio, who hates Dick and has wanted him gone since Infinite Crisis, thought that if he turned Dick into a secret agent, the book would bomb, and he could be rid of him forever.

    Yeah, that kinda backfired, didn't it.
    Yes, I know. And I also know that that book was one of the best things of N52 although it started with awful premises due to all that shit fake death of Dick.
    Everything was senseless, and i think that Tim would have been a most logical choice.
    I can't do anything with DiDio choice, but i can tell what was better to do.
    Last edited by failo.legendkiller; 03-19-2017 at 01:35 PM.

  15. #60
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    He should go right back to the 'Tec team and Spoiler should follow suit.
    I will fight. Forever. For everyone, whether they know it or not. Whether they are watching or not. I will always fight.---Daredevil

    "There is a difference between you and me. We both looked into the abyss, but when it looked back at us... you blinked."---Batman

    "I am a mad man with a box!"---The Doctor

    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.---John 3:16

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