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  1. #106
    Astonishing Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Well if Dc sales show Diana does well when people return to her roots. So Azz's run didn't sales well in the end and sells are stronger with Rucka's run. So it seems if dc goes more classical Diana but also ever down and them bend a few of her elements it should work. I mean look at Legends of Wonder Woman. Heck I do think that if we do something more with her sci-fi elements and handled well who knows. I mean being by Eviless
    Please sign this so we can at least show DC we want Legend of Wonder Woman part 2.

    https://www.change.org/p/comic-fans-...part-2-back-on

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyssane View Post
    Well, we were talking about Rucka/Azzarello/JMS, so that in itself takes the characters out of the in-continuity and makes it about the comic book history itself.
    I was talking about how these changes were implemented when we touched on these three, not that they were all still part of the tapestry:
    Azzarello has the benefit of coming out of a massive company-wide event that changed almost everything everywhere.
    JMS implemented his by Diana being taken through a random portal to solve a problem and Hester sort of solved it the same way.
    And Rucka's... well right now it seems like Diana just had a slight headache and went: 'Hold on everything is wrong.'

    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    The transition from pre-Crisis to post-Crisis had "exceptions" to the general rule of an all new DC. Likewise, pre-Flashpoint to post-Flashpoint had exceptions, too. I seriously doubt Rucka gave more than 2 seconds of thought to what other writers were doing with other characters. Moreover, I'd argue that most other characters weren't in the same 'need' of as drastic of a Rebirth as WW.

    You may not like that Rucka threw out some things you liked; you can say it doesn't fit as well as other explanations. But, it just strikes me as odd saying Rucka "invented" a version of Hippolyta when his version is strikingly similar to versions that came before. Just as GL didn't change as much as WW after Flashpoint, on the flip side, WW changed more by going back closer to what she lost due to Flashpoint.
    It had exceptions that were immediately clear, not something that limps back on stage 6 years after it was supposedly written out of existence. Especially not when the event bringing it back has nothing to do with it. I would argue that Diana was one of the characters in the least need of something as drastic as this. It had a solid foundation, and it should take more than one crap writer to undo it. We just got 1 immensely arrogant one who wanted something else.

    I must admit I am pretty close to blowing a fuse right now: How is any of what I wrote before difficult to understand?!

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    I was talking about how these changes were implemented when we touched on these three, not that they were all still part of the tapestry:
    Azzarello has the benefit of coming out of a massive company-wide event that changed almost everything everywhere.
    JMS implemented his by Diana being taken through a random portal to solve a problem and Hester sort of solved it the same way.
    And Rucka's... well right now it seems like Diana just had a slight headache and went: 'Hold on everything is wrong.'



    It had exceptions that were immediately clear, not something that limps back on stage 6 years after it was supposedly written out of existence. Especially not when the event bringing it back has nothing to do with it. I would argue that Diana was one of the characters in the least need of something as drastic as this. It had a solid foundation, and it should take more than one crap writer to undo it. We just got 1 immensely arrogant one who wanted something else.

    I must admit I am pretty close to blowing a fuse right now: How is any of what I wrote before difficult to understand?!
    I don't feel like I don't understand you, just looking at it differently. For starters, Rucka's story about the Lies and the Truth isn't over; we don't know all the details, yet. Perhaps, future issues will have the explanation regarding how this is possible.

    I, also, don't feel like anyone at DC told Rucka he had to abide by the rules you've set forth here. I doubt they could have talked him into coming back without it being a Rebirth of a more classic WW.

    As for "It had a solid foundation, and it should take more than one crap writer to undo it. We just got 1 immensely arrogant one who wanted something else." Well, that's how I feel about Azzarello/DiDio and their nu52WW.

    We may disagree on a lot of the details, what should be this or that, but, this is the current WW. And, as we see in this thread, many of us don't want another reboot tossing everything out, just growth going forward.

  4. #109
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    We may disagree on a lot of the details, what should be this or that, but, this is the current WW. And, as we see in this thread, many of us don't want another reboot tossing everything out, just growth going forward.
    Taking recent history into account, I wouldn't get my hopes up on that front.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Taking recent history into account, I wouldn't get my hopes up on that front.
    Oh, I'm not. But, sometimes, hope is all I have.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    I don't feel like I don't understand you, just looking at it differently. For starters, Rucka's story about the Lies and the Truth isn't over; we don't know all the details, yet. Perhaps, future issues will have the explanation regarding how this is possible.

    I, also, don't feel like anyone at DC told Rucka he had to abide by the rules you've set forth here. I doubt they could have talked him into coming back without it being a Rebirth of a more classic WW.

    As for "It had a solid foundation, and it should take more than one crap writer to undo it. We just got 1 immensely arrogant one who wanted something else." Well, that's how I feel about Azzarello/DiDio and their nu52WW.

    We may disagree on a lot of the details, what should be this or that, but, this is the current WW.
    And, as we see in this thread, many of us don't want another reboot tossing everything out, just growth going forward.
    Considering how little time he has actually allocated to the fact that nothing Diana knew is real... I am not confident we will get anything that makes sense or covers the subject. Right now everything is gyrating around Cale and her plan to get to a place no one seem able to reach. Worst case scenario is that Rucka leaves it for someone else to deal with, and it will be almost as bad if he explains it through somekind of offhand remark. As for your perspective... I'm sorry, but it seems like you are looking at it from a place where you cant. You are looking at it as a reader and collector, I am looking at it from the perspective inside the books themselves:
    -Marston's version plus most of the Silver Age's WW was handled and sorted with them getting their happy-ever after with COIE with one final appearance of that Diana in IC before she 'died', and she was from another world.
    -Perez's version effectively never happened at all because of Reverse Flash going so far back in time to change everything. And then Barry tried to retroactively stop him from doing so, but was tripped by Pandora and the imperfect result was the New 52.
    -Rucka then invents an entirely new setting for the Amazons that he hasn't bothered explaining how or why they exist, yet, and then steamrolls it over what was.


    It's not so much rules as it is common sense and respect for continuity. Like it's not like they did with Jason Todd, he had something to bring him back to life, the writer that followed whoever killed him didn't just have him appear as if nothing happened.

    And yet the point they were working from still makes more sense.

    And a year or two ago I felt the same way when people were still complaining about how much they didn't like the Amazons or Diana.
    Yes and some of us didn't want a reboot to begin with and the book certainly didn't need one, but here we are because Rucka apparently couldn't do the whole 'growth going forward' thing with what was already there.
    Last edited by Outside_85; 04-18-2017 at 12:58 AM.

  7. #112
    Moderator Nyssane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Not really. I mean, its not any more unbelievable than the multiple people who took up the codenames of Hobgoblin and Green Goblin and Venom and then all went after Spider-Man; or the two Atomic Skulls that have both tangled with Superman; the three Black Spiders that all fought Batman; or the thirteen guys and gals who have taken up the Crimson Dynamo name and all decided they had the hate on for Tony Stark (and several other Marvel heroes).

    I actually think that taking up a retired villain's mantle would be an effective way to mess with a hero's head by dredging up memories of their past encounters with the previous one.
    Except that Hobgoblin and Green Goblin etc. all took the names from their original counterparts. Barbara Ann became the Cheetah sort of against her will in Rebirth. She didn't choose to take the mantle from Priscilla Rich, she was forced to take it by Urzkartaga. What are the chances that Diana fought Priscilla early on as the first Cheetah and then a brand new, unrelated one just popped up a few years later? Post-Crisis it made a little more sense, but not much. Like... cheetahs are very specific animals.

    But either way, you like multiple Cheetahs and I don't, which is totally fine. It's no secret I'm a huge fan of Priscilla Rich, I just don't think she's necessary right now since Barbara Ann is taking her role (plus it'd be neat if Priscilla was one of her aliases like in the New 52).

  8. #113
    Astonishing Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    I was talking about how these changes were implemented when we touched on these three, not that they were all still part of the tapestry:
    Azzarello has the benefit of coming out of a massive company-wide event that changed almost everything everywhere.
    JMS implemented his by Diana being taken through a random portal to solve a problem and Hester sort of solved it the same way.
    And Rucka's... well right now it seems like Diana just had a slight headache and went: 'Hold on everything is wrong.'



    It had exceptions that were immediately clear, not something that limps back on stage 6 years after it was supposedly written out of existence. Especially not when the event bringing it back has nothing to do with it. I would argue that Diana was one of the characters in the least need of something as drastic as this. It had a solid foundation, and it should take more than one crap writer to undo it. We just got 1 immensely arrogant one who wanted something else.

    I must admit I am pretty close to blowing a fuse right now: How is any of what I wrote before difficult to understand?!

    Actually it was Geoff Johns who told Greg Rucka that Diana hadn't been herself in a long time and that he wanted her brought back to her her core concepts. It's after that, Rucka figured out to accomplish that goal.
    Currently Reading: Aquaman, Batgirl & The Birds of Prey, Green Arrow. Hal Jordan & The Green Lantern Corps, Justice League of America, Titans, Wonder Woman, & Wonder Woman '77.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyssane View Post
    But either way, you like multiple Cheetahs and I don't, which is totally fine. It's no secret I'm a huge fan of Priscilla Rich, I just don't think she's necessary right now since Barbara Ann is taking her role (plus it'd be neat if Priscilla was one of her aliases like in the New 52).
    If memory serves... the JL issue where Cheeath was captured, it was revealed that Priscilla and Dolores were both alias' Barbara had used in the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    Actually it was Geoff Johns who told Greg Rucka that Diana hadn't been herself in a long time and that he wanted her brought back to her her core concepts. It's after that, Rucka figured out to accomplish that goal.
    I, really dont believe that, considering Johns was the one who wrote her at her most out of character and continued writing her as such right up to the point he departed Justice League leaving everyone with the squeaky fart called Jason.
    What you are saying is Johns went:
    "I wrote Wonder Woman terribly for 5 years of Justice League. I am going to correct that by making Greg Rucka write her differently in her own book to solve that!"
    Last edited by Outside_85; 04-18-2017 at 04:22 AM.

  10. #115
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    If memory serves... the JL issue where Cheeath was captured, it was revealed that Priscilla and Dolores were both alias' Barbara had used in the past.



    I, really dont believe that, considering Johns was the one who wrote her at her most out of character and continued writing her as such right up to the point he departed Justice League leaving everyone with the squeaky fart called Jason.
    What you are saying is Johns went:
    "I wrote Wonder Woman terribly for 5 years of Justice League. I am going to correct that by making Greg Rucka write her differently in her own book to solve that!"
    Actually, when Jason Fabok came on board, Geoff's writing of Diana drastically changed for the better and he gained a great deal of respect for her.

    "And it’s been awesome. He’s helped inspired me as much as he says I’ve inspired him. Working with Jay’s pages has opened up all sorts of new ideas for me. Wonder Woman is the perfect example. I saw the way he drew her and just wanted more of her because she looked so brilliant — so strong and powerful. She looked like a leader and a badass, but still compassionate. So I just gravitated towards that character and researched more and more of her" - Geoff Johns
    And Rucka was quite clear on his instructions:

    Writers are brought in and they’re told, “Make her work!” And so they sit there and they try to reinvent the wheel. So, what’s the latest reinvention? We’re going to make the Amazons horrible people. She’s not going to use a lasso, she’s going to stab people with a sword. And that’s not Wonder Woman! That’s Red Sonja! And Red Sonja’s a totally different character, from a totally different continuity. Literally, what I have been told to do is “I want to see Wonder Woman again.”

    So let’s look at what we’re doing in Year One. Trying to honor the Perez origin—because Marston’s original origin is so vague! It’s literally a two page origin and you’re like, “there’s no character there,” because he wasn’t interested in the character. He was interested in the ideas and concept. In 2016, we want stories about character, so we understand the motivation. Themyscira has to be paradise. It’s gotta be Utopia. It has to be a place that once she leaves it, that’s sacrifice. Her willingness to go, “I will never go back there,” is huge. It’s her defining heroic characteristic. And it’s a characteristic that we lose, and we’ve lost it over and over again, because God knows, for the last 10 years, every other story has been sent on Themyscira. So Themyscira needs to be rare. And one of the goals here is to say, “It is rare. We’ve got to make it rare again.”

    I like to think that I have gotten older and wiser enough to go, “the things that I am changing, I am changing with deliberation and with great care,” and with an eye toward wanting to build a legacy that will outlast us. One of the things I was asked to do on this run is build a Diana so that when the next person comes along, there will be a continuity. When I leave the book, the next writer, whoever he or she may be, shouldn’t have to reinvent the wheel. Ideally, they will go, “If nothing else, ‘Year One’ is a fixed point, ‘The Lies’ and ‘The Truth’ are fixed points on the character’s current map.” -Greg Rucka
    Johns started off with a pretty poorly written Diana, in my opinion, but by the time he left JL, I truly felt that he had 'gotten' the character and was writing her very differently than when he started.

    He did essentially write her for years, but *he* began to solve it while he was on JL. With Rebirth, he clearly saw an opportunity to continue down that path.

    As to Rucka, he makes i plain that he's taking the character back to Perez/Marston and that he was told directly that DC wanted "to see Wonder Woman again." They acknowledge that what we got from nu52 just wasn't core Diana and they wanted her to be written as she had been for the decades leading up to those changes.

  11. #116
    Fantastic Member Joao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Considering how little time he has actually allocated to the fact that nothing Diana knew is real... I am not confident we will get anything that makes sense or covers the subject. Right now everything is gyrating around Cale and her plan to get to a place no one seem able to reach. Worst case scenario is that Rucka leaves it for someone else to deal with, and it will be almost as bad if he explains it through somekind of offhand remark. As for your perspective... I'm sorry, but it seems like you are looking at it from a place where you cant. You are looking at it as a reader and collector, I am looking at it from the perspective inside the books themselves.
    I think the worst sin of WW's rebirth was telling right from the start everything was a lie and that they were going to repair her. That took away a lot surprises while making us starve for answers. It's a dangerous combination. But it's not because of the way the story is told: I wouldn't want all of these issues to deal only with the retcon. instead, I will remember it because of the amazing Year One and Cheetah's curse and Veronica Cale's heartbreaking story (Godwatch is already one of my favorite Wondy stories ever). That's not a bad thing.

    Those 25 issues were planned as a big story from the start and I trust Rucka to tell it. I don't think he will solve every question (like, maybe, how other people came to Themyscira if it was an ilusion), but saying he will give everything to another writer and say "hey, finish this mess" is a bit much.

  12. #117
    Moderator Nyssane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    If memory serves... the JL issue where Cheeath was captured, it was revealed that Priscilla and Dolores were both alias' Barbara had used in the past.
    Yep! Priscilla Rich, Deborah Domaine, and Sabrina Ballesteros (ie. Sebastian Ballesteros) were all aliases used by Barbara, which I thought was a great addition to her character.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Actually, when Jason Fabok came on board, Geoff's writing of Diana drastically changed for the better and he gained a great deal of respect for her.
    Which lasted for something like one story and then had her mostly sidelined during the final Darkseid War. So too little too late.

    And Rucka was quite clear on his instructions:
    Notice that he uses two different lines to say the same thing:
    Other writers get: "Make her work!"
    He got: "I want to see Wonder Woman again."

    Both describe the current state of Wonder Woman as one that is broken, both demand the writer come up with something that works, neither of which give any hint or indication of what they actually want and leave it to the writer to figure that one out.

    Johns started off with a pretty poorly written Diana, in my opinion, but by the time he left JL, I truly felt that he had 'gotten' the character and was writing her very differently than when he started.

    He did essentially write her for years, but *he* began to solve it while he was on JL. With Rebirth, he clearly saw an opportunity to continue down that path.

    As to Rucka, he makes i plain that he's taking the character back to Perez/Marston and that he was told directly that DC wanted "to see Wonder Woman again." They acknowledge that what we got from nu52 just wasn't core Diana and they wanted her to be written as she had been for the decades leading up to those changes.
    As far as I can tell, the only real difference he got was to make her hit people over the head with a shield rather than run them through with a sword.

    Then he should have kept writing JL so he could continue where the mess actually existed. As much as Azzarello may have gotten wrong about Diana's world, most people agreed that his Diana was spot on, if a little naive.

    And as far as I can tell from the interview you've posted, that's been Rucka's choice, not DC's. And again, it's not Diana, its the world around her.

  14. #119
    Astonishing Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Which lasted for something like one story and then had her mostly sidelined during the final Darkseid War. So too little too late.



    Notice that he uses two different lines to say the same thing:
    Other writers get: "Make her work!"
    He got: "I want to see Wonder Woman again."

    Both describe the current state of Wonder Woman as one that is broken, both demand the writer come up with something that works, neither of which give any hint or indication of what they actually want and leave it to the writer to figure that one out.



    As far as I can tell, the only real difference he got was to make her hit people over the head with a shield rather than run them through with a sword.

    Then he should have kept writing JL so he could continue where the mess actually existed. As much as Azzarello may have gotten wrong about Diana's world, most people agreed that his Diana was spot on, if a little naive.

    And as far as I can tell from the interview you've posted, that's been Rucka's choice, not DC's. And again, it's not Diana, its the world around her.


    Azzarello's Diana was far from spot-on, more like a bi-polar sufferer. One minute she declares that she loves everyone and in other moments, she's impaling both Strife and Ares(neither of which were an immediate physical threat to anyone innocent), sexually assaulting Orion over some crude jokes, pummeling Aleka, pulling a sword on a peacefully approaching Ares, and calling Strife a b_tch. Azzarello's Diana was anything but "spot on". At least in Geoff Johns portrayal, he showed clear improvement over time rather than being all over the map from beginning to end.
    Currently Reading: Aquaman, Batgirl & The Birds of Prey, Green Arrow. Hal Jordan & The Green Lantern Corps, Justice League of America, Titans, Wonder Woman, & Wonder Woman '77.

  15. #120
    Fantastic Member Amazon Swordsman's Avatar
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    Lmaooo @Poison. There were times I just couldn't take his Diana seriously. She seemed moody/angsty, couldn't decide if she wanted to be called WW or Diana. I did like that she had a bit of a social life, but her cutting Strife's hand with a wine glass and calling her a b*tch seemed so out of character for her.

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