Page 11 of 16 FirstFirst ... 789101112131415 ... LastLast
Results 151 to 165 of 234
  1. #151
    Veteran Member sakuyamons's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    florida
    Posts
    1,046

    Default

    I never cared this much about Steve and Etta in post-Crisis (granted, they were little more than afterthoughts. Except on Simone's run where Etta was awesome). So I'd sad to see them go, sure you could work on them, but not erase them. I think Ferd will leave with Rucka (a shame, he is awesome) but once Godwatch dissolves we have people like Phobos/Deimos, Circe and Poison to "continue" causing trouble.

  2. #152
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,041

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sakuyamons View Post
    I never cared this much about Steve and Etta in post-Crisis (granted, they were little more than afterthoughts. Except on Simone's run where Etta was awesome). So I'd sad to see them go, sure you could work on them, but not erase them. I think Ferd will leave with Rucka (a shame, he is awesome)...
    I like that Ferdinand's presence in the comic immediately tells the reader you're dealing with a fantastic world that you will not find in Batman or Superman. I also like very much that Ferdinand points directly to Greek mythology in a distinctly visual way, without being an omnipotent Greek god, who can solve Diana's problems with a blink.

    I don't see anything about Ferdinand that should impede a writer telling a good WW story. If there's some adventure, where Ferdinand's bizarre appearance is a problem, then, hiding him becomes part of the fun of the story. If a writer can't work that out, Ferdinand can sit out an issue or two.

    Not liking Ferdinand isn't an excuse to junk EVERY-thing here ..and whip up your own supporting cast of mutant mercenaries, out of thin air. It shouldn't be an excuse to make Diana a brooding loner, who only interacts with perfect, immortal Amazons, either. When you consider the classic supporting casts of other comics ..and what would have happened, if the editors of those comics allowed writers to ditch Perry, Lois and Jimmy, whenever it suited them to do so, the WW editors should pass on this sort of thinking and insist that Etta, Steve and Ferdinand stay visible in the comic.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 04-19-2017 at 09:38 AM.
    Wonder Boy, Prince of the Amazons, saves Paradise Island from the techno-tyranny of Roboseidon in... WONDER BOY LIVES

  3. #153
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,125

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    ... The foundation is there, and the next writer might blow it up as well because it suits them.
    Maybe the next writer will blow it all up, we'll have to wait and see. I get the impression that's what you want to happen, not due to the quality or state of the current WW, but simply out of spite. Am I wrong?

    You seem quick to dismiss any disrespect from Azzarello in making changes because it came under the banner of new 52. But, Rucka wasn't hired just to follow in Azzarello's footsteps. He was hired under the banner of Rebirth. So, I don't see a good reason not to cut him some slack for making changes.

    Moreover, the main changes he's made aren't really changes, but a restoration of what was there from the very beginning and foundation of the character. Azzarello did not just tell a story, he made changes that were toxic to the women and message of WW.

    I always laugh at the "too perfect" excuse, because a) they haven't been perfect for quite some time, and b) I have yet to see an argument that Marston was boring. He created this "utopia," but he was never as limited as all the writers claim "perfect" to be; perhaps writers complaining about "too perfect" need to look in the mirror and admit the limitations are in them?

    Further, Mel is right - the WW story is not Amazon Island. Any writer that can't write good Amazons has an entire world of opportunity for adventure for our hero. Cheetah, Circe, Cale, Cyber, Poison, etc can all make for good stories to build on. Steve is back as a love interest. Etta and Ferdinand as friends. There's lots to work with.

    Will it all go boom? History says yes. Or, perhaps, for now, history will learn a lesson or two from the past?

  4. #154
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,125

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joao View Post
    I read this run as two different things. The past stories (Year One and Godwatch) are set in stone for me, and read very well even if you know nothing about WW. That is something to build on, something that will be remembered for a long time.

    The present day stories are the big "eraser", and that's what they'll be remembered for the most.

    There are two storylines in the run, so seeing them as just one thing makes it harder see into the future. But I think Year One and Godwatch will be much more impactful in the long run. HsssH mentioned Batman's Year One as "high quality, simplicity, being completely standalone, relatively speaking short story that has very precise goals that it manages to meet by the time it is finished. You can give it to someone who has never read anything with Batman and he'll get it". Diana's Year One is almost exactly that for her. There are just one or two points that are not explained (the Snake bite, for example), but it's nothing compared to other rebirth titles regarding the importance of continuity.
    Great post, Joao. I think WW's Year One is a great foundation stone; just as HsssH described Batman Year One, it's "high quality, simplicity," etc. You don't have to know any continuity to jump right in and enjoy.

    It's harder to judge The Lies and The Truth as they aren't over, yet. But, most ongoing comics are going to have some continuity complexities, that's the nature of the medium.

  5. #155
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,905

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    Maybe the next writer will blow it all up, we'll have to wait and see. I get the impression that's what you want to happen, not due to the quality or state of the current WW, but simply out of spite. Am I wrong?
    Seems to have been the feelings of quite a few posters here, so why not? Turn about is fair play?

    You seem quick to dismiss any disrespect from Azzarello in making changes because it came under the banner of new 52. But, Rucka wasn't hired just to follow in Azzarello's footsteps. He was hired under the banner of Rebirth. So, I don't see a good reason not to cut him some slack for making changes.
    Rucka could have, but he chose not to, 'Rebirth' is nothing but a convenient excuse because the actual event has nothing to do with Wonder Woman nor does affect her in the slightest. He could have done this 6 months later of 6 months ealier than he did and with would make not different to Rebirth at all, on any level. So yeah, I am going to call him out on using Rebirth as a convenient excuse to do something he otherwise couldn't.

    Moreover, the main changes he's made aren't really changes, but a restoration of what was there from the very beginning and foundation of the character.
    Azzarello did not just tell a story, he made changes that were toxic to the women and message of WW.
    You haven't actually read any of Marstons books by the looks of things.
    Yes because everyone cared about Hera, Strife and the Amazons before that? No they did not and you are lying to yourself if you think otherwise, no one gave a flying hoot about them unless they showed up to cause a problem.

    I always laugh at the "too perfect" excuse, because a) they haven't been perfect for quite some time, and b) I have yet to see an argument that Marston was boring. He created this "utopia," but he was never as limited as all the writers claim "perfect" to be; perhaps writers complaining about "too perfect" need to look in the mirror and admit the limitations are in them?
    Here is a simple challenge for your remark:

    Give us a story in Wonder Woman where the perfection and virtues of the Amazons are a driving force for a story.

    Feel free to use alternate universes and appearances in other media, because I will bet you cannot find one.

    Further, Mel is right - the WW story is not Amazon Island. Any writer that can't write good Amazons has an entire world of opportunity for adventure for our hero. Cheetah, Circe, Cale, Cyber, Poison, etc can all make for good stories to build on. Steve is back as a love interest. Etta and Ferdinand as friends. There's lots to work with.
    In other words, you wouldn't care one bit if the Amazons were wiped off the face of a planet and never touched again. Because they are at their best when no one can touch them.
    If you think that, then I am going to say you are not interested in the Amazons in anything other than as a picture that cannot be changed, touched or in any way interfered with, which is a laughable position to have when dealing with a story-telling element. As if Snow White could never be interacted with after the dwarves put her in her crystal coffin.

    Will it all go boom? History says yes. Or, perhaps, for now, history will learn a lesson or two from the past?
    History would remember that Wonder Woman was a sales tank for ages before the New 52, catering to a diminishing audience that could never accept change. Because thats what the book was before the New 52: nearly worthless.

  6. #156
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,125

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Seems to have been the feelings of quite a few posters here, so why not? Turn about is fair play? ...
    If you want to disgregard any possible merits and just blow up Rebirth WW simply out of spite, well, then I doubt there's anything I can say to change your mind. We all feel how we feel about stories and changes and such. I understand the frustration, but, I don't think a repeated cycle of 'blow it up,' especially just out of revenge, helps WW in the long run. At some point, building is better.

    Azzarello crafted a good story, but, yes, I feel strongly that it was toxic to the foundation. You don't just paint over cracks in the foundation. You may like that version better, that's your opinion. But, it is not an opinion shared by all WW fans. Even the sales of it, while consistently good, ended up 10,000 less than were Rebirth sales are now. Just as DC thought it best to allow Azzarello to make changes, they gave Rucka the opportunity to restore a more classic WW.

    And, btw, you do a rather poor job of trying to speak for me. I have read a good amount of Marston. And, yes, I do care about the Amazons and what happens to them. No, I'm not asking for the "Snow White" treatment; I've never even asked for "perfect" Amazons. Feel free to tilt at that windmill, but you aren't speaking for me.

  7. #157
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,367

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Seems to have been the feelings of quite a few posters here, so why not? Turn about is fair play?



    Rucka could have, but he chose not to, 'Rebirth' is nothing but a convenient excuse because the actual event has nothing to do with Wonder Woman nor does affect her in the slightest. He could have done this 6 months later of 6 months ealier than he did and with would make not different to Rebirth at all, on any level. So yeah, I am going to call him out on using Rebirth as a convenient excuse to do something he otherwise couldn't.
    So if I understand it correctly, Azzarello didn't have to change anything in nu52 (Amazons, Hippolyta, origin) but he did despite all the world building that had gone on before. Plenty of other characters in nu52 remained primarily intact, but he took a convenient excuse to do something he otherwise couldn't.

    Along comes Rebirth, and Rucka is told to bring Wonder Woman back, with DC acknowledging that Azzarello's Diana wasn't working.

    "No, and I think it’s important to try to find those things that, again, work and that are true. One of the things that I think did happen over the course of the New 52—and this is something that Geoff and I talked about—was that there has been this perception that Diana somehow doesn’t work."- Greg Rucka
    He brings her back to her original roots, preferring the 70 year world building and ignoring the changes made by Azzarello in nu52 - a completely different timeline that has been wiped away. It was an artificial five years that replaced the 'true' 10 years of the DCU.

    How is it that what Azzarello did was fine and dandy, but Rucka's decision to re-create the old WW universe in Rebirth is somehow wrong for him to do?

  8. #158
    Veteran Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Green Bay, WI
    Posts
    4,186

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    So if I understand it correctly, Azzarello didn't have to change anything in nu52 (Amazons, Hippolyta, origin) but he did despite all the world building that had gone on before. Plenty of other characters in nu52 remained primarily intact, but he took a convenient excuse to do something he otherwise couldn't.

    Along comes Rebirth, and Rucka is told to bring Wonder Woman back, with DC acknowledging that Azzarello's Diana wasn't working.



    He brings her back to her original roots, preferring the 70 year world building and ignoring the changes made by Azzarello in nu52 - a completely different timeline that has been wiped away. It was an artificial five years that replaced the 'true' 10 years of the DCU.

    How is it that what Azzarello did was fine and dandy, but Rucka's decision to re-create the old WW universe in Rebirth is somehow wrong for him to do?



    Perhaps DC should let Azzarello write a Vertigo book staring his version of the Olympians. After all, they were just as much of the stars in his Wonder Woman run as Diana was and what many of his fans cheered about the most. I honestly think if DC did that, his fans would love it and wouldn't complain much that Diana wasn't in the book. At the very least, it might stop his fans from wanting Wonder Woman to revert to being Princess of Public Domain.
    Currently Reading: Aquaman, Batgirl & The Birds of Prey, Green Arrow. Hal Jordan & The Green Lantern Corps, Justice League of America, Titans, Wonder Woman, & Wonder Woman '77.

  9. #159
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,041

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    ...In other words, you wouldn't care one bit if the Amazons were wiped off the face of a planet and never touched again. Because they are at their best when no one can touch them.

    If you think that, then I am going to say you are not interested in the Amazons in anything other than as a picture that cannot be changed, touched or in any way interfered with, which is a laughable position to have when dealing with a story-telling element. As if Snow White could never be interacted with after the dwarves put her in her crystal coffin...
    Further, Mel is right - the WW story is not Amazon Island. Any writer that can't write good Amazons has an entire world of opportunity for adventure for our hero. Cheetah, Circe, Cale, Cyber, Poison, etc can all make for good stories to build on. Steve is back as a love interest. Etta and Ferdinand as friends. There's lots to work with.
    You're taking both of us out of context.

    What we're saying is that the Amazons might need their own comic. The Amazons needn't be at the center of every story, because the book is about Wonder Woman. It's about Wonder Woman fighting supervillains, like Cheetah, Circe, Cale, Cyber, Poison and ARES. It's about Wonder Woman having adventures with her friends Etta, Steve and Ferdinand (and hopefully, Artemis or Aleka, someday) - occasionally having adventures with Queen Hippolyte and her Amazon sisters on Paradise Island. Being primarily about Wonder Woman, the WW comic doesn't always have to be about the Amazons, and, as Mr. Rucka suggests, ..they won't feel very special, anymore, if it is. However, that special world of theirs could be explored more fully, if the Amazons had their own comic.

    A Wonder and I both agree that the Amazons are special and should be handled that way, either in their own comic or in the WW comic. Are you really against the 'two comic' solution?
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 04-19-2017 at 11:35 PM.
    Wonder Boy, Prince of the Amazons, saves Paradise Island from the techno-tyranny of Roboseidon in... WONDER BOY LIVES

  10. #160
    Elder Member numberthirty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    9,188

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    How is it that what Azzarello did was fine and dandy, but Rucka's decision to re-create the old WW universe in Rebirth is somehow wrong for him to do?
    One reader's take...

    If I had not read Rucka essentially duck what he was planning to do in the interviews leading up to his run, this would be less of an issue.

    Similarly, actually coming up with something better than "It Was All Lies" when that particular chapter was addressed would have helped.

    As it stands, the writer did a pretty lousy job of doing what folks were upset that another writer had done.

    So, yes. Doing an, at best, lousy job of contending with the past while doing a just "So-So" job with creating a foundation was wrong. The title and the character deserve something more fully formed than that.

  11. #161
    Veteran Member HsssH's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,062

    Default

    I think the "problem" is that with New52 WW was getting rebooted either way so Azz was given clean page and did what he did. He didn't really contradict or wash away anything since, by DC's editorial decision, there wasn't anything anymore. Maybe if we got someone else instead of Azz then maybe some people would have liked it better, but I'm not optimistic considering how Johns wrote her in JL. I might be remembering wrong, but I got the impression that DC wanted to do something like what we saw in JL for WW's main book too, Azz didn't like it and proposed counter-idea that editors eventually approved.

    With Rucka it looks like DC editors didn't really decide anything and it was up to him to change (or not change) what he wants or doesn't want. So by comparison if DC hired someone else I think that it is likely that we would have had more continuity between Azz's run and Rebirth unlike how with new52 we were getting reboot no matter what. I think that when you get more authority to do what you want you also get more responsibility. It also doesn't look good when writer who supposedly loves the character decides, on his own, to continue long tradition of WW where each new creative team ignores (or destroys) what came before. This decision for Azz was made by others, from all signs it looks like Rucka made this decision himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joao View Post
    There are two storylines in the run, so seeing them as just one thing makes it harder see into the future. But I think Year One and Godwatch will be much more impactful in the long run. HsssH mentioned Batman's Year One as "high quality, simplicity, being completely standalone, relatively speaking short story that has very precise goals that it manages to meet by the time it is finished. You can give it to someone who has never read anything with Batman and he'll get it". Diana's Year One is almost exactly that for her. There are just one or two points that are not explained (the Snake bite, for example), but it's nothing compared to other rebirth titles regarding the importance of continuity.
    Interesting point, so how do we do it? Take half the run and set it up as foundation while ignore rest of it?

  12. #162
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,041

    Default

    What are we really arguing about, here?

    Are there actually some of us, who think the WW comic doesn't need or shouldn't have a supporting cast? Greg Rucka didn't tie the characters up in a silly embassy or collar them with government jobs, like the old days. All he did was give the comic a cast of three supporting regulars - Etta, Steve and Ferdinand - and some of us seem to be suggesting that's some kind of terrible imposition on future writers. Are Alfred Pennyworth, Aunt May and Perry White an imposition on future writers of their respective magazines? What are we arguing about?

    I think any prospective writer, who can't find some way to include Etta, Steve and Ferdinand in their story, even in some small way, ..is a big, whiny primadonna, who's got no business anywhere near the WW comic. The idea that, every seven or eight months, we've gotta throw all the side characters into a black hole, because some celebrity writer can't handle three supporting characters [THREE, LOUSY SIDE PLAYERS!] is patently lunatic! That's just my opinion, ..but, maybe, that's just way too-oouuu ..ha-aahhrrrd.

    Is anyone suggesting that we just shove Etta, Steve and Ferdinand out of the way and make the Amazons, the WW comic's supporting cast? Just move the whole narrative center of the comic to Paradise Island and start all the stories, there, flouncing around in little togas ..and speaking in ye old faux-Elizabethan English (again)? Get rid of the regular cast, altogether? No CAST?

    What art we really arguing about?
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 04-20-2017 at 01:37 AM.
    Wonder Boy, Prince of the Amazons, saves Paradise Island from the techno-tyranny of Roboseidon in... WONDER BOY LIVES

  13. #163
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    11,324

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    What are we really arguing about, here?

    Are there actually some of us, who think the WW comic doesn't need or shouldn't have a supporting cast? Greg Rucka didn't tie the characters up in a silly embassy or collar them with government jobs, like the old days. All he did was give the comic a cast of three supporting regulars - Etta, Steve and Ferdinand - and some of us seem to be suggesting that's some kind of terrible imposition on future writers. Are Alfred Pennyworth, Aunt May and Perry White an imposition on future writers of their respective magazines? What are we arguing about?

    I think any prospective writer, who can't find some way to include Etta, Steve and Ferdinand in their story, even in some small way, ..is a big, whiny primadonna, who's got no business anywhere near the WW comic. The idea that, every seven or eight months, we've gotta throw all the side characters into a black hole, because some celebrity writer can't handle three supporting characters [THREE, LOUSY SIDE PLAYERS!] is patently lunatic! That's just my opinion, ..but, maybe, that's too-oouuu ..ha-aahhrrrd.

    Is anyone suggesting that we just shove Etta, Steve and Ferdinand out of the way and make the Amazons, the WW comic's supporting cast? Just move the whole narrative center of the comic to Paradise Island and start all the stories, there, flouncing around in little togas ..and speaking in ye old faux-Elizabethan English (again)? Get rid of the regular cast, altogether? No CAST?

    What art we really arguing about?
    Wonder Woman has always had a supporting cast. You may not like them, but they've been there. Also, you do realize Rucka was one of those writers who used the embassy?

  14. #164
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,125

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    I think the "problem" is that with New52 WW was getting rebooted either way so Azz was given clean page and did what he did. He didn't really contradict or wash away anything since, by DC's editorial decision, there wasn't anything anymore. Maybe if we got someone else instead of Azz then maybe some people would have liked it better, but I'm not optimistic considering how Johns wrote her in JL. I might be remembering wrong, but I got the impression that DC wanted to do something like what we saw in JL for WW's main book too, Azz didn't like it and proposed counter-idea that editors eventually approved.

    With Rucka it looks like DC editors didn't really decide anything and it was up to him to change (or not change) what he wants or doesn't want. So by comparison if DC hired someone else I think that it is likely that we would have had more continuity between Azz's run and Rebirth unlike how with new52 we were getting reboot no matter what. I think that when you get more authority to do what you want you also get more responsibility. It also doesn't look good when writer who supposedly loves the character decides, on his own, to continue long tradition of WW where each new creative team ignores (or destroys) what came before. This decision for Azz was made by others, from all signs it looks like Rucka made this decision himself.
    This doesn't seem fair or accurate. You're right that new 52 was going to reboot WW, and, due to his pitch, Azzarello was hired to do it. But, that shouldn't excuse all the decisions he made to change the character and her world. He doesn't get a free pass from criticism.

    Similarly, DC decided on a line wide Rebirth. They were going to do it with or without Rucka. They contacted him and discussed bringing a more classic approach back to the character. He isn't making changes for the sake of change - he's mainly restoring what new 52 took from her. That's the difference.

    The "problem" is that we all have likes and dislikes, so, we don't all agree on what changes are for the better or worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    Interesting point, so how do we do it? Take half the run and set it up as foundation while ignore rest of it?
    I think the main point is that Batman Year One isn't comparable to Rucka's The Lies, it's much more comparable to WW Year One. No run mentions everything that has transpired to date, you pick what you wan to build on and go from there.

  15. #165
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,041

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Wonder Woman has always had a supporting cast. You may not like them, but they've been there. Also, you do realize Rucka was one of those writers who used the embassy?
    Aware of it? That's entirely my point.

    While Mr. Rucka could have tied all of the characters up in a ridiculous subplot about running his embassy, ..he didn't. All the guy did was give the WW comic three, supporting characters - all fan favorites, by the way - and for that, it seems some of us want to barbecue him for making terrible impositions on future writers. Why?! He said he put these characters into play so that future writers won't have to make up a Wonderverse from scratch. It's three side-players! We can take them or leave them!

    What'd the guy do that's so awful? What do we want from him ..or any WW writer, for that matter? Do we really know?
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 04-20-2017 at 01:55 AM.
    Wonder Boy, Prince of the Amazons, saves Paradise Island from the techno-tyranny of Roboseidon in... WONDER BOY LIVES

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •